Halifax Stadium Discussion

[fenwick16]

Dexter: No stadium cash right now

Thu, Aug 11 - 4:55 AM
The province isn’t ready to back a stadium in Halifax Regional Municipality, Premier Darrell Dexter said Wednesday.

The province has committed funding for three major projects — the Muskrat Falls subsea power line, a proposed convention centre for downtown Halifax, and to promote a Nova Scotia shipyard for the national shipbuilding bid, Dexter said.

Given those demands, he said the province cannot commit to funding a stadium right now.

"We’re not in a position, at this point, to jump in on the front end, but we leave open the question of the business case that can be made for this kind of facility," Dexter said at a Cole Harbour news conference.

"Maybe at some point in the future, we’ll be able to reassess that. If . . . the economy’s better and we have more money, then more things become possible, but not right now."

Halifax regional council voted this week to proceed with Phase 2 of a stadium analysis. Councillors supporting a stadium, which could cost up to $60 million, say the other levels of government should help pay for it.

It would be good information to know which Nova Scotia MLA's (including Conservatives and Liberals) do support a reasonably priced stadium. It might be a good idea for HRM area NDP'ers to ask their constituents if they support a stadium. One HRM Councillor said on August 9th, at the HRM Council meeting, that he was surprised to discover that the majority of residents support a stadium.

With the 2% HST increase and if Dexter manages to sink the stadium then he might not get many HRM area votes in the next election. Based on all the boo's that Premier Dexter received when giving speeches at the Canada Winter Games in Halifax, he doesn't seem too popular in the HRM at this time. Just the 2% HST increase alone, might be enough for several NDP MLA's to lose their seat in 2013.

[wespidel]

I hope Peter MacKay and Ottawa back out of the Convention deal because I believe Dexter`s govt. is setting up Peter MacKay and Ottawa to give them money to the convention centre only inturn that Dexter`s govt. supports a major stadium project. Dexter is the kind of Premier where you can`t take his word seriously because Premier Dexter has shown no integrity and has lied to the public to get in power and then taxed us to death!

He`s probably doing the same on the stadium to get the money for the convention centre and then he will screw us on the stadium.

Well by the quote in made in the Herald about there is no cash right now for the stadium and he would not be supporting it, is a good indication why the hope of a major stadium will not take place and why a mickey mouse facility for Saint Marys will.

I hope Peter MacKay gets win of this quote before his visit on Monday and puts Dexter in his place.

This clown got to go and I hope the people of Halifax show there displeasure!

[q12]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It would be good information to know which Nova Scotia MLA's (including Conservatives and Liberals) do support a reasonably priced stadium. It might be a good idea for HRM area NDP'ers to ask their constituents if they support a stadium. One HRM Councillor said on August 9th, at the HRM Council meeting, that he was surprised to discover that the majority of residents support a stadium.

With the 2% HST increase and if Dexter manages to sink the stadium then he might not get many HRM area votes in the next election. Based on all the boo's that Premier Dexter received when giving speeches at the Canada Winter Games in Halifax, he doesn't seem too popular in the HRM at this time. Just the 2% HST increase alone, might be enough for several NDP MLA's to lose their seat in 2013.

Fenwick I agree, Dexter and the NDP do not seem to know what the people want. If there is appetite for the stadium than why would you not want to show some support for this project especially when you want people to forget about those tax hikes before the next election.

This FIFA event would benefit the province and I find it difficult to believe that this Dexter government would not want their name on something that was affiliated with this international event.

[halifaxboyns]

I suspect he's saying that for now (this and maybe next year) there is no money available to budget into contributing to a stadium.

But if the ship contract works out and the surplus remains and gets bigger, then I suspect there might be some room to help. I'm not surprised he said that; I was expecting it.

[ScovaNotian]

I imagine the province's hesitation may have to do with its $13 billion of debt. I very much prefer fiscal restraint over the free-wheeling spending of the past. Here is an article that looks at the economics of stadiums and that at least casts some doubt on the net benefits that some people suggest exist.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I suspect he's saying that for now (this and maybe next year) there is no money available to budget into contributing to a stadium.

But if the ship contract works out and the surplus remains and gets bigger, then I suspect there might be some room to help. I'm not surprised he said that; I was expecting it.

Dexter will also be first in line to claim credit at the opening ceremonies for the 2015 World Cup in the new HRM stadium.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

I imagine the province's hesitation may have to do with its $13 billion of debt. I very much prefer fiscal restraint over the free-wheeling spending of the past. Here is an article that looks at the economics of stadiums and that at least casts some doubt on the net benefits that some people suggest exist.

Here is a more current article.. says much of the same thing: http://www.thenation.com/article/162400/why-do-mayors-love-sports-stadiums

I think that even if the ship comes in, pardon the pun, we are 5-10 years away from anything approaching fiscal health. I suspect the first thing the NDP will do is drop the HST before the next election, probably next budget year if this year has balance or surplus anything like the last year.

This all means that the stadium can't get built in time for FIFA here, unless HRM pays for 2/3s.

[TedWilliamsHead]

wespidel, not trying to be mean, but honest...your post read like a tabloid magazine

[wespidel]

It`s about fact, Dexter`s govt. being unwilling to support the stadium will leave the city with most of the cost which will cost taxpayers a lot more. Dexter`s keeps taking money from the public and gives nothing back. What has is govt. given back to the taxpayers? He`s a Premier that`s a taker and a bully! Premier Dexter always has his free hand out and never gives back!

There isn`t another Premier in the country that would insult their city and province like Dexter did yesterday, coming out and saying there is no cash for the stadium and he wouldn`t be supporting the stadium project at this time. How ignorant and insulting could a Premier be after the city council just approved phase 11 of the stadium project. Well Waye Mason is right, time is an issue here especially where the stadium would have to be completed by 2014 for the FIFA Womens U20 World Cup of Soccer which by way is being played in only eastern Canada and of source for the 2015 FIFA Womens World Cup of Soccer.

Dexter wants to take all the Nova Scotians taxpayers money with his insane high taxes and wants Ottawa to support major projects in the form of free money but he doesn`t want to support a major stadium project for our capital city and province.

If there was an election tomorrow he would be gone in a flash, only if that could have became a reality prior to the FIFA bid, so we could have replaced him with a Premier that would have had real vision and would have given back to the public and not just filled his pockets with taxpayers money!

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Here is a more current article.. says much of the same thing: http://www.thenation.com/article/162400/why-do-mayors-love-sports-stadiums

I think that even if the ship comes in, pardon the pun, we are 5-10 years away from anything approaching fiscal health. I suspect the first thing the NDP will do is drop the HST before the next election, probably next budget year if this year has balance or surplus anything like the last year.

This all means that the stadium can't get built in time for FIFA here, unless HRM pays for 2/3s.

Most of the main points of the article do not apply to Halifax:
-A small-scale public stadium to be used for a variety of events is being discussed. Nobody is talking about expensive features like a retractable roof. If it were a $200M cadillac stadium I would not support it and I think many others would change their minds.
-There's very little talk of using this for urban revitalization.
-There's no present pro sports team involved and there is no discussion of ongoing subsidy to a team, only maintenance of a public asset.
-We don't already have a stadium; this isn't like the cases cited in the article where teams are complaining about having to play in 20 year old buildings.

I'm also not sure about your assertion that the province cannot pay. My understanding is that capital expenditures often are not included in the deficit; the debt can go up while the books are "balanced". This may or may not be desirable but I don't believe that the province can be counted out at this early stage.

[Empire]

Originally Posted by someone123

Most of the main points of the article do not apply to Halifax:
-A small-scale public stadium to be used for a variety of events is being discussed. Nobody is talking about expensive features like a retractable roof. If it were a $200M cadillac stadium I would not support it and I think many others would change their minds.
-There's very little talk of using this for urban revitalization.
-There's no present pro sports team involved and there is no discussion of ongoing subsidy to a team, only maintenance of a public asset.
-We don't already have a stadium; this isn't like the cases cited in the article where teams are complaining about having to play in 20 year old buildings.

I'm also not sure about your assertion that the province cannot pay. My understanding is that capital expenditures often are not included in the deficit; the debt can go up while the books are "balanced". This may or may not be desirable but I don't believe that the province can be counted out at this early stage.

Exactly......Waye can you site a municipality of 400,000+ in North America that has no stadium at all? Or something equal to what we have, a set of crumbling bleachers with a capacity of 1500. I think you will see the province come around when they realize it is a mistake not to support a stadium, youth, fitness, and the HRM. Also, it will likely get to a point where they are the odd man out so this is the time to come back into the fold and catch the wave.

[thurmas]

Is it just me or the benefits of a cfl capable stadium are not being communicated more often and clearly to the govt leaders. Hosting one Grey Cup is an infusion of $50-60 million in the cites economy.More tourism from fans coming to see games, buying merchandise and eating at restaurants. Possible Vanier Cup hosting I mean this is such a no brainer.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thurmas

Is it just me or the benefits of a cfl capable stadium are not being communicated more often and clearly to the govt leaders. Hosting one Grey Cup is an infusion of $50-60 million in the cites economy.More tourism from fans coming to see games, buying merchandise and eating at restaurants. Possible Vanier Cup hosting I mean this is such a no brainer.

The problem is that there is no CFL team lined up, and politically it is not a great idea to sell a new stadium as a "build it and the CFL will come" type of proposition. It's also a bad idea to send the message to the CFL that the city is willing to fall over backwards and hand them a free, custom-built stadium. A CFL team should be regarded as a potential tenant.

[thurmas]

I disagree the cfl has been very clear it wants to be 10 teams with Ottawa back in 2014 being the 9th team. 10 teams helps the league get bigger tv ratings in atlantic canada,easier game scheduling, more sponsership from another region of Canada. What's the point of a city of Halifax's size and stature not having a CFL capable stadium when Regina a city half of it's size has had one for many many years. The CFL in Halifax would be huge just like the Roughriders in Saskatchewan because there is no real pro sports competition in the whole region other than junior hockey.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by thurmas

I disagree the cfl has been very clear it wants to be 10 teams with Ottawa back in 2014 being the 9th team. 10 teams helps the league get bigger tv ratings in atlantic canada,easier game scheduling, more sponsership from another region of Canada. What's the point of a city of Halifax's size and stature not having a CFL capable stadium when Regina a city half of it's size has had one for many many years. The CFL in Halifax would be huge just like the Roughriders in Saskatchewan because there is no real pro sports competition in the whole region other than junior hockey.

I agree that the CFL could be successful. My point is that right now they're looking at building this for FIFA, not the CFL.

Realistically there also have to be many uses lined up for a major facility like this, not a single one-off event and then a hypothetical sports franchise. I don't think that will be a problem, but I understand why the focus is not on Grey Cups right now.

[Empire]

Another point is that there may be a possibility of funding from the feds for amateur sport infrastructure such as this stadium. Once this stadium is built to accommodate the 2015 FIFA requirements then hopefully an expansion would follow for a CFL franchise.

[someone123]

Yep, I should have also explicitly pointed that out. The feds cannot fund a CFL stadium in Halifax without a "me too" effect cropping up in other cities that want new CFL or NHL infrastructure.

And I do tend to agree that a $30-60M public stadium in Halifax is pretty different from a replacement arena costing hundreds of millions and earmarked for the NHL.

[wespidel]

A outdoor 10 thousand permanent seat stadium will not bring enough revenue in even to pay for itself because it`s to small. The indoor Metro Centre can make more money than a outdoor 10 thousand permanent seat stadium and that is fact. A outdoor 10 thousand permanent seat stadium will lose money because it can`t attract a major tenant or a CFL franchise owner unless it`s a CFL model stadium or attract other major events. It`s simple as that!

A 25,000 permanent seat CFL model stadium built with all the latest amenities and built expandable and temporarily expandable to 45 or 50 thousand will attract the 10th CFL team to Halifax and the first ever Grey Cup game in Atlantic Canada which woud be huge! Calgary`s last Grey Cup took in 85 million dollars in economy spin offs.

If Halifax does build a 10 thousand seat stadium and does get the FIFA soccer games, Halifax will have the worse facility of all the other major cities and Halifax (HRM) is over 400 thousand people and is classified as a major city. We will be a laughing stock to the rest of Canada!


You can thank Dexter for your mickey mouse 10 thousand permanent seat replacement stadium for Saint Marys, better known as the Sue Uteck Special! Halifax is going nowhere fast!

[Empire]

Hopefully Peter MacKay will have a generous contribution to the stadium effort recognizing the importance of amateur sport, fitness and the role of Halifax on the national scene.

The bigger the contribution the smaller Dexter will look.

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by someone123

I'm also not sure about your assertion that the province cannot pay. My understanding is that capital expenditures often are not included in the deficit; the debt can go up while the books are "balanced". This may or may not be desirable but I don't believe that the province can be counted out at this early stage.

You have to pay back the loan, which increases the amount of budget going to cost of borrowing, which is a real issue in this province.

So for example the HRM has a policy of paying down debt, I think it is $3 million a year, so mostly except the two years of stimulus spending, the debt goes down. This is why it is safe to say HRM only has $145 million a year for capital projects, give or take a few million. You can see the five year budget forecast.

The province is trying to stop the increase in debt servicing costs, so ultimately there is a limited amount you can borrow and afford to borrow. We already owe $12.5 billion... we are one of the highest debt per capita jurisdictions in North America. That said, the province has a lot of money to spend on capital projects so they could move some around....

I recognize and respect that folks here are talking apples, oranges and bananas here. Some folks want the full on CFL stadium, the province has no money for that. Bananas.

Most folks here want that modest $60 million or so, lets call that oranges, the province says it has no money for that, but I bet they do. The lower the price, the better chance you can get Darryl to pay a part, as it would be more of a rec thing than a pro-sports thing. The lower the price, the closer it gets to the basic apple model, the easier it will be for him to back down from today's statement. EDIT just read your last post, and I agree - I am surprised that Dexter made that statement at all, knowing the feds cannot and will not fund a pro-sports stadium. A 20-30-40 million stadium is still money, but its not stupid crazy money. I'm kind of surprised.



But because some folks are still talking about the full banana, it is relevant to post articles like that one in the Nation, and I am not implying that you want to build that size stadium.