Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[usog]

The 410 just suffers like any long distance/crosstown bus with any decent frequency/use in that they start to stack up during heavy periods. Just look at any of the crosstown buses in Vancouver such as the ones on Broadway. I do agree though that throwing out the schedule on the 410 messes with any bus connections someone wants to make after.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by usog

The 410 just suffers like any long distance/crosstown bus with any decent frequency/use in that they start to stack up during heavy periods. Just look at any of the crosstown buses in Vancouver such as the ones on Broadway. I do agree though that throwing out the schedule on the 410 messes with any bus connections someone wants to make after.

Yes but at the difference of other crosstown routes, like the 99B you mention...

1. 410 offer a circuitous route for the regional user (the one 22nd station->Rchmond center)
2. Due to the 91 Hwy, and the above, there is a huge improvement possible with the introduction of a 411 express route (unlike the 41/43).
3. There is the potential patronage for it, and I second the observation of xd_1771 to ground that.

So fixes are really at hand here...

And obviously, thought that carrying some merits, I don't think the solution proposed by BCPhil is of nature to encourage transit ridership in the region, when the one advanced by xd_1771 (or me) I think is.

[Millennium2002]

If your observations are correct, xd_1771, my thinking goes that the cheaper alternative would be to run the 410 as express from No 6 Road onwards towards 22nd Street Station with only two midway stops at Westminster Hwy and Howes St, and scrap local service entirely. (and vice versa for return trip)

There are several problems with that however:
- despite small market share, the communities are still pretty much in the way such that frequent service can be provided to them at generally minimal delays to the commute, and at minimal cost
- market share will grow in the future with projected developments in Queensborough
- you're ruining the commute of those in Queensborough who also want a direct route and don't want to transfer. After all, they want one-seat commutes too, not a needless transfer to a community shuttle bus that only comes once an hour.
- do your observations apply to the rest of the day? Perhaps people are not commuting at the times you expect them to be there.

Certainly the problems above are fixable, and in fact I can list the suggestions just to prove that I'm not being that biased to the locals:
- add more community shuttles, improve to 30 minutes or better service on demand
- optimize C99 or derivatives such that route covers most residents
- build good exchange(s) beside Howes Street and maybe Westminster St overpasses to facilitate easy and comfortable connections, and/or split C99 service and extend both branches to 22nd Street Station

The only practical caveat to this is that it requires a small but still sizable chunk of yearly investment, and I don't think I have to remind people about what sort of quagmire TransLink is still in, even if things look safe for now. =S The public is still simmering over taxes, and the southern cities really want their rapid transit pet projects soon . If any of these two groups hear about how $500000 to a million dollars is used on Queensborough and Hamilton alone, we might be in for a rocky ride with all of our other transit and transport projects getting stalled by either group until the funding and priority impasse is resolved to each group's satisfaction. Sad story, yes, but that's something that we'll have to be content with.

[xd_1771]

No, scrapping local service could definitely be too hard on Queensborough travellers into Richmond... I was thinking we could implement something similar to the 411 scheme that was introduced earlier - a new route alongside the 410; just how to implement it. Will it run to Brighouse only, or to Steveston, and would it replace the 410 into Steveston?

And of course, are there any ways we can improve the 410 as it is? (i.e. utilising the new Nelson Rd ramps)

[DKaz]

The thing is 91/91A can get very congested during the PM rush hour. Getting the 410 onto 91A east at Howes bypasses a lot of the queue onto the bridge and Westminster Hwy probably actually moves compared the Hwy 91.

It's amazing how busy this route is. I remember when 410 ran only into East Richmond except during rush hour when it went all the way to Richmond Centre. Going to see my girlfriend in Richmond from New Westminster weekends was literally a day excursion taking about 2 hours each way via the 100 and 406. I pushed BC Transit/Translink for the longest time to expand service hours, knowing it would be successful from day 1. It was awesome when they finally introduced midday and Saturday service, going to Yaohan, Parker Place, etc. on Saturday became a regular thing, and then when they introduced seven day a week service from morning to night that was heaven.

[Millennium2002]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

No, scrapping local service could definitely be too hard on Queensborough travellers into Richmond... I was thinking we could implement something similar to the 411 scheme that was introduced earlier - a new route alongside the 410; just how to implement it. Will it run to Brighouse only, or to Steveston, and would it replace the 410 into Steveston?

And of course, are there any ways we can improve the 410 as it is? (i.e. utilising the new Nelson Rd ramps)

Only thing is... I think TransLink will consider the idea of local vs express service to be mutually exclusive or in other words incompatible with each other. If you put in a 411, you'll most likely force TransLink to reduce or scrap service on the 410 due to their desire to cut or otherwise stabilize costs and rationalize service to cope with demand. And that just brings up the issues I mentioned before.

Mind you, if we had more money + more population going the express way + more local residents at Queensborough demanding transit service + very heavy bridge delays, this might not be a bad idea to speed up the commutes of both populations. But right now only the bridge congestion issue exists, and it can be easily solved through the creation of a dedicated bus queue jumping lane or ramp just before the bridge approach.

[xd_1771]

If you put in a 411, you'll most likely force TransLink to reduce or scrap service on the 410 due to their desire to cut or otherwise stabilize costs and rationalize service to cope with demand. And that just brings up the issues I mentioned before.

This is why some study needs to be done on the 410 corridor... I wonder if there is anyone in Steveston commuting to the Fraserwood area or commuting a very long distance to 22nd St station on a daily basis... I don't think so. If this were the case, we could run 410 as a Brighouse-Queensborough-22nd route only with the same frequency that it has today, while the 411 takes over operations to Steveston via Railway as a non-express line. Since Fraserwood is usually only a short delay (and will be shorter with the Nelson Road exit), the 411 could also operate on a via-Fraserwood basis in the same way as the 410 - exiting the highway at nelson and re-entering at Westminster Highway. If it is absolutely necessary. In any case, the 411 is a long term solution for sure, something to put there if the demand for the 410 increases ever so sharply.

I always thought the entrance at Howes St eastbound needed ramp metering. Going from 2 lanes into one then short merging onto the 91A with no on-ramp control is what's causing the long 91A queues. There needs to be ramp metering there - perhaps with an HOV queue jumper for buses as well. It is a small solution that can benefit everybody, including transit riders.

As for Highway 91, the congestion may be solved by placing ramp metering on the Annacis Island highway entrances; I find that those ramps cause a lot of the congestion that happens approaching the Alex Fraser. Another good solution would be to repurpose the shoulder for a bus lane, similar to what was done on the 99; in the eastbound direction this may be necessary, but likely it is fine in the westbound direction. This could be implemented for pretty much the cost of paint; the lane can end where the 3 lane section begins just west of the Westminster Hwy exit.

Westminster Highway eastbound doesn't necessarily always move well either; while I was riding westbound on the 410 the other day, there was a very long eastbound lineup stretching from Nelson Street down the Westminster Highway, and an eastbound 410 and 301 were stuck in that lineup. Again this will likely be solved if the 410 were to redirect along 91 to Nelson Road on its Fraserwood routing.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

No, scrapping local service could definitely be too hard on Queensborough travellers into Richmond... I was thinking we could implement something similar to the 411 scheme that was introduced earlier - a new route alongside the 410; just how to implement it. Will it run to Brighouse only, or to Steveston, and would it replace the 410 into Steveston?

And of course, are there any ways we can improve the 410 as it is? (i.e. utilising the new Nelson Rd ramps)

Ok, so what is it? You either hate the 410 or not. Before you were making it sound like the slowest, most unreliable route in the city, making you late for appointments and frustrating you so much that you had to come and rant about it on the internet and spend time coming up with a solution to this intolerable problem. Now it sounds like it saves you tons of time, but just not enough. If you like the convenience of having a seat as opposed to the accuracy and dependency of standing on the Skytrain, then that is your choice. You can't have it all.

The schedule posted by translink is long for the route because of the unreliability of traffic. For a bus, it is much better to be chronically early than chronically late according to schedule. It's better to be early 9 out of 10 times than late once. You are complaining that it's early, most would be happy with that. And the travel times on the schedule actually change significantly depending on the time of day (because traffic is easier to predict at non peak times).

I just think it is too expensive to run an extra express service along the route. An express route from 22nd to Richmond just serves too small a market. If you start anywhere else besides New West or North North Surrey, you have other, better options. If you start out a bit to the south in Surrey, you can transfer to the 301 at Newton. If you start out at Braid, taking the Millennium line the other way would be more reliable and faster. If you start out at Edmonds, again, taking Skytrain westward gives you more and better choices.

I think once the Nelson interchange opens there will be less truck traffic on Westminster Hwy and travel times across Richomond on Westminster will be more reliable. I actually think all 410 buses should run the Fraserwoods route after Nelson opens. Some of those businesses aren't just regular hour offices and without the 410 it makes getting to work difficult if you do shift work. That is the real point of the 410 in my opinion: serving those businesses and offices along Westminster, No 6 Road, and Cambie, as well as the businesses and residents of Queensborough.

The 410 already runs fairly frequently. Adding another route would just take away from resources that are serving the local community in favor of lazy crosstown riders looking for a chair instead of using the Skytrain. We took away the seats for the suburban buses in favor of the savings of making them ride the Canada Line. Until there are capacity issues on the 410 that make ridding it difficult for locals, I see no reason to put extra resources there until other, much more significant problems are solved. I would rather see the frequency of the 410 bumped up a bit before adding another route.

[Millennium2002]

I agree with the above, and feel compelled to add also that we don't have money in TransLink to do everything we want at this point. We could wish on and dream big-time but that's something that can be better addressed in the Transit Fantasies thread in my opinion. =S

[xd_1771]

I think we are a bit misunderstood.
So apparently you complain at me because I like having a single seat ride? Try telling that to the lot of Richmond riders who used to have one seat commutes into Vancouver but have now been totally inconvenienced. Try telling that to the various other Richmond riders who enjoy the 410 for that reason.

Again, telling people to take Skytrain the long way around and to expect longer travel times at all times is NOT THE ANSWER, when a better alternative can clearly be put forward for lower cost. There is clearly a market of 410 riders heading through into RICHMOND and not just the Cambie corridor or Fraserwood & Queensborough, from my various observations that I have taken while riding the bus. The fact that Translink bloats the 410 schedule by making it seem longer than normal makes the 410 seem like the longer, worse choice; it is usually the shorter and better commute, but it is something that can definitely be improved further for the benefit of everyone. Saying the New West/Surrey/Coquitlam to Richmond corridor is a minority is no different from saying the Vancouver to Surrey corridor is a minority. We need to make room for longer, regional commutes as well as local ones.

There is really nothing wrong with having both an express and local route on the same long distance commute either. It is done in many other cities with success. In Winnipeg, express routes run alongside various local routes on the same corridor with success. In Vancouver, we have buses that run alongside Skytrain corridors - that's not very different.

And since when did I say we have to introduce the 411 immediately? Of course translink is short for cash, but in the future when we have room to spend and there are increases in traffic along the 410 related to growth in Queensborough, Richmond and other communities to the east including Coquitlam, that's when the introduction of the 411 will be necessary. The 410 however, due to its role as BOTH a regional as well as local route, can't be subjected to changes that will dethrone and lower the level of service; there needs to be improvements.

[DKaz]

Fraserwood adds a couple of minutes at most onto the trip. Sheesh.

Thought I would say increase the frequency to 10 minutes during the midday and make every second trip route via Fraserwood. Done deal.

[Zassk]

If you're going to propose significant changes, then you have to ask whether the region is better served by making 410 an express bus, or by making 100 an express bus. There is a good argument (already raised in this discussion) that the 100 would make a better south connector between the two Skytrain lines. I say this as a person who works along the 410 and is directly affected by it.

[xd_1771]

I don't think there would be much use in using the 100 as a direct-to-Richmond connector, so it's not worth an express to me. It connects neither Bridgeport nor Brighouse (i.e. connection to other Richmond bus routes). Priority connection between 22nd and Richmond should connect to either of these directly, for the best possible usage and popularity. This is not just a connector between Skytrain lines; it's an important connection between different urban centres.

[usog]

The route for the 100 is much more reliable traffic/punctuality wise though than the highway-bound 410 will ever be though imo.

[xd_1771]

It's an interesting possibility, but what it really doesn't do is provide that direct connection to Richmond and downtown.
Bearing in mind the facts, the 410 is one of the most popular suburban bus routes - in fact it is second only to the 135 and the 106, according to recent data. The 410 is used over the 100, because it actually gets people to where they want to go. Turning 410 traffic to an express 100 will add another transfer for the majority, which will remove the travel time benefit of an express 100; again, NOT a real solution. The 411 bus study posted earlier shows that an every 20 minutes 411 during peak hours ONLY will provide an immense benefit with little impact on 410 frequency and reliability. Operating a 411 while keeping the 410 at the same frequency would be a more cost effective and beneficiary choice than simply increasing the 410 frequency during peak hours. It would add no operating cost. And for little additional operating cost, the 411 could be extended to serve slightly past or before peak hours.

It should be noted that as of the Moving Forward transit plan, Translink is already highlighting the 410 (yes, the 410 - not the 100) for improvements.

[usog]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

It's an interesting possibility, but what it really doesn't do is provide that direct connection to Richmond and downtown.
Bearing in mind the facts, the 410 is one of the most popular suburban bus routes - in fact it is second only to the 135 and the 106, according to recent data. The 410 is used over the 100, because it actually gets people to where they want to go. Turning 410 traffic to an express 100 will add another transfer for the majority, which will remove the travel time benefit of an express 100; again, NOT a real solution. The 411 bus study posted earlier shows that an every 20 minutes 411 during peak hours ONLY will provide an immense benefit with little impact on 410 frequency and reliability. Operating a 411 while keeping the 410 at the same frequency would be a more cost effective and beneficiary choice than simply increasing the 410 frequency during peak hours. It would add no operating cost. And for little additional operating cost, the 411 could be extended to serve slightly past or before peak hours.

It should be noted that as of the Moving Forward transit plan, Translink is already highlighting the 410 (yes, the 410 - not the 100) for improvements.

I don't see an express bus going up on the 410 route until the traffic problem on the 91 ever gets fixed, whether through adding an HOV lane or otherwise. Until that happens, it just isn't worth it in my opinion. I mean, why run an express bus that will just get clogged in traffic when the resources can be used elsewhere(like a 399 )

[xd_1771]

From west of Westminster Highway there will definitely be significant time savings.
Just west or just east of Nelson Rd is usually where eastbound Hwy 91 traffic jams begin, however at this point the 411 could be redirected to use the shoulder until it hits the 3rd lane just west of the Westminster Highway exit, where it will exit to stop; this doesn't necessarily mean a major repaving is required either (repainting maybe, repaving...no). Worst case scenario, exit at Nelson and use Westminster Hwy up until the entrance to the 91A. In Queensborough, the 411 will definitely have to exit at Howes St to stop, saving it from facing most of the 91A traffic jam.
The only westbound traffic problem involves approaching the Queensborough bridge. However, due to bus priority installments that already service the 410, that is not a huge problem.

Operating a 411 on a peak hours only basis will require neither extra buses nor operating cost, as pointed out in the linked 411 bus study.

[DKaz]

Well, as the 411 does run express, there is the option of routing off of 91 left onto Westminster Hwy, right onto Howes, then left back onto the 91A if traffic is backed up. I don't see any problems eastbound.

Thanks for the link, xd_1771, I've warmed up to the idea now.

Although it'd be kinda like the odd 160/190 routes where in the PM Peak, the 160 diverts to Guildford instead of Barnet and the 190 goes down Barnet instead.

[nname]

On a side note, it is unlikely that Translink would use #411 if such route is implemented, as they have a habit of not re-using former route number on new route that's different, except for a few occasions such as #2, #150, and #153 (#411 was assigned to Steveston/Vancouver route before). The likely candidates would probably be #412 (usused), #413 (New West/Richmond via Westminster Hwy), #414-419 (usused), or even #493 (unused, and 9 means express).

[bardak]

While I don't know if the 410 is the right route but there is a very strong need for a good east-west connection between the Canada line and Expo line south of 41st
whether it be the "411", a b-line on marine drive, or a the mythical 41st b-line