LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[pesto]

Originally Posted by citywatch

I've been going through the my city photos page & saw 3 different threads on SF. one of them highlights the union sq area.......



geomorph

as with pershing sq, union sq in sf also is built above an underground parking lot. Although its redesign of a few yrs ago is quite lacking in shade & greenery, it nonetheless appears to be well used by a variety of ppl. I'm not that impressed with its design, since it looks hard edged & too non traditional compared with the old world design of its centerpiece, the statue on the tall column. there is no lack of concrete or hard paved surfaces in it. But ppl in sf have voted with their feet & they appear willing to hang out in union sq.

this is another reason why I believe some ppl over emphasize design---good or bad----as the answer to what ails pershing sq or dtla in general, or the reason why things don't add up right. I don't totally disagree with that POV, it's just that I think it doesn't answer all the questions when it's not placed in full context.

the main reason why I think Pershing sq & the hood overall doesn't connect the way it should, or isn't bustling the way it could? LA lost too much $$ a loong time ago, inc ppl who ran to the burbs. DT never had enough ppl & businesses with $$ to begin with, so when it fell apart over 50 yrs ago, it really fell apart.

Then too many slumlords or owners desperate to make a fast buck----& the type of ppl they feed off of----became the mainstay of DT.

I notice in pics of SF there are many old beaux arts bldgs that are in great shape, even sparkling clean & almost like new. I'm amazed at how few, or almost none of them (at least in pics) are decrepit & filthy the way so many old bldgs still are in LA, esp around broadway.

So I'm not gonna gripe about devlprs of new projs like the metropolis when it's really the ppl who own battered old bldgs in dt----& aren't doing a damn thing to improve their part of the hood----that deserve everyone's .

as for whether parks all by themselves really are such a magic bullet, & since you refer to the new park (or "civic space") between the music ctr & city hall.....

brigham has said on many occasions that the new civic ctr park will remain at a disadvantage as long as it's surrounded by govt bldgs. While I understand where he's coming from, I also have to point out.....

the existence of a very nice, very green, & fairly large park near his part of town: the park on Fair Oaks blvd at Del Mar in pasadena. Unlike Pershing or Union sq, that park is mostly lawn with trees, surrounded by a generally nice hood, a few blocks south of old town pasadena. It's totally visible from the streets that surround it on 4 sides.

I have a friend who lives in that area, & as we drove by the park on Fair Oaks on Thursday, she mentioned that it wasn't as popular as one would think it would be. She told me that there are many times throughout the day when she'll pass by & see very few to almost no one in the park.

so, again, design is only ONE factor that has to be considered when trying to figure out why something is successful or not. Or the existence of friendly open spaces---meaning parks or publics squares---may not be as crucial to a hood as other things are or as some believe they are.

I've mentioned that about Union Sq. before. Not only is it over a multi-level parking lot, with lots of street level entrances and exits, but it was specifically re-designed with minimal greenery and sitting areas to make it inconvenient for the homeless. Access is inconvenient on most sides. It is no better designed than Pershing Sq.; my guess is that the same criteria were used on each. The difference is that there is a thriving business, shopping, restaurant and entertainment district around it. That's what draws the people there. Improving Pershing Sq. is a very low priority since this will occur automatically when the hood attracts tourists, the middle class, etc.

[colemonkee]

I can tell you with some confidence that The Perch, and following later in 2012, The Must, will be a catalyst for creating activity around Pershing Square. I went to Perch last night, and there was a pretty good line downstairs until midnight or so. The place has only been open for a week or two, and it's already a HUGE success, and VERY few people know about it. Once it catches on, and The Must opens, activity on that corner will increase significantly. I see it as a major catalyst for existing retail spaces around Pershing Square over the next 6-12 months, and hopefully a catalyst for the eventual redevelopment of the Hotel Clark next door.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

Smooth stucco can give you some amazing and colorful buildings.

Stucco that at least doesn't have a flat gravely surface look to it is decent imho. that style of stucco always makes me think of cheap housing & bldgs that were in vogue from around the 1950s til rather recently. Stucco ALWAYS looks horrible when applied to---as a major example----old houses that once were covered in clapboards. I know some preservationists have found that type of remodeling to be appalling, which it is.

I think the huge concrete panels stuck to the side of the lower parking levels of the watermarke apt tower look far, far worse than the apt tower one block south, meaning 717 olympic.

Originally Posted by pesto

Improving Pershing Sq. is a very low priority since this will occur automatically when the hood attracts tourists, the middle class, etc.

I was reading comments of 2 different ppl posted to their blog over the past few days, who traveled to LA. Both of them just happen to be from australia.

One of them said dtla was the one part of LA that didn't fit her preconceptions, but unfortunately not in a good way. She said it was quieter & slower than what she associates with the centers of big cities.

The other mentioned how dirty many bldgs in dt are. She compared them with certain slummy parts of sydney. she also said dtla was boring, esp little tokyo, & there were too few big bldgs to make for an interesting backdrop, or something like that. She described seeing a homeless guy leaving a steaming pile in the middle of the sidewalk & being nervous at the sight of street ppl coming near her.

It's funny how both of them described grand central mkt as being smaller than they thought it would be. not sure how foreigners even know about that part of the hood, since many angelenos probably aren't aware that grand central mkt even exists.

One of them then traveled to sf & said how that city was a relief & much "lovelier".

I noticed their type of reactions are not uncommon, even with all the improvements to dtla over the past several yrs. I'd hate to think what they'd have thought about the hood some time ago. but since dt is starting from such a low level, it's understandable it still needs alot more improvements.

That's another reason why I'm not going to spend too much time fussing over the design of a PROPOSED proj like the metropolis----even more so since it may not even be built----or the finer details of pershing sq.

What really deserves ppl's (1) the slumlords, (2) the level of homelessness & the filth around them that are rivaled by few major cities in the first world, (3) the property owners who sit on parking lots without a care in the world. (4) the lazy, sloppy shopkeepers, esp around broadway, who leech off the hood.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

Originally Posted by colemonkee

I can tell you with some confidence that The Perch, and following later in 2012, The Must, will be a catalyst for creating activity around Pershing Square. I went to Perch last night, and there was a pretty good line downstairs until midnight or so. The place has only been open for a week or two, and it's already a HUGE success, and VERY few people know about it. Once it catches on, and The Must opens, activity on that corner will increase significantly. I see it as a major catalyst for existing retail spaces around Pershing Square over the next 6-12 months, and hopefully a catalyst for the eventual redevelopment of the Hotel Clark next door.

Yes hopefully something substantial will finally lease the ground floor of the Title Guarantee building which would create a wonderful cross-flow of pedestrian traffic with the Pershing Square office building.

[Illithid Dude]

@Citywatch

One tourist doesn't like Downtown. You can find one tourist who doesn't like anything. The real question is, how many other tourists don't like Downtown? The exception is not the rule, my friend.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by colemonkee

I went to Perch last night, and there was a pretty good line downstairs until midnight or so. The place has only been open for a week or two, and it's already a HUGE success, and VERY few people know about it.

that's good to hear!

by contrast, I was reading some reviews about the new angle city brewery at 2nd st & alameda. At first glance, I was very discouraged, even shocked. a few ppl have publicly tried to make the owner sound like a major putz. He had a run in with a local artist who's known for being a major flake & even a shyster. The owner invited the artist to put up artwork in the brewery & ended up getting burned with bad PR. Some other ppl are claiming the place really isn't a brewery & imply its equipment is window dressing.

I had to dig a bit deeper for the story & the owner deserves some benefit of the doubt. however, a few customers aren't too impressed with the brewery's atmosphere, saying it's too bare bones or low budget. But others say one big advantage of angel city is that unlike most places in dt, it has its own parking lot. urbanists won't be impressed by that, but others will.

I hope any problems can be fixed & the business survives & thrives.

[citywatch]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

You can find one tourist who doesn't like anything. The real question is, how many other tourists don't like Downtown? The exception is not the rule, my friend.

believe me, I wish you were correct. however, I've personally seen or read about similar reactions in too many ppl towards the hood going back a long time. I mentioned previously driving down broadway several months ago with relatives from OC, not thinking it would be too discouraging to them or me. Instead I ended up quite embarrassed for the city, not helped when my daughter scoffed "who'd shop at places like this?!". iow, if someone like me, who likes being a booster of LA will come away , then I can't expect any better of a reaction in others, esp ppl who'll visit DT with a "show me the money" tude or any city that is far removed from their own.

but I've also said that imho I think dtla is better today than its been in over 50 yrs, perhaps in certain ways better now than it has ever been.

[LA/OCman]

Two years ago I showed some family friends around Los Angeles. They were from Zagreb, Croatia and had never been to the US before. I had one full day to show them the city. They LOVED it. We started at the Getty and ended up Downtown. In between we drove thru Beverly Hills/Holby Hills, had a beer at the Avalon Hotel, walked around Beverly Hills, Weho, walked Hollywood and Highland, drove thru Koreatown, had Mexican food at the original El Cholo, ended up at my sister's loft in Luma and walked around Disney Hall at night. We ran out of time...I would have loved to show them more Downtown.

Citywatch, Los Angeles is most appreciated by those who can experience it from a local's perspective. I have had friend's from Switzerland and Paris enjoy their experiences. In fact, I have been told I should be a local tour guide..which I may consider. Downtown is best seen by a local. It is not like a European city. But if toured correctly, LA can be a gem! Showing a group from OC "Broadway" is not going to be impressive. Now if you call me up I would take them to the rooftop of the Eastern Columbia (have loft there), walk over to the Pattern Bar and Wood Spoon and have a nightcap at the Broadway Bar or Golden Gopher....they might have a different impression of what Broadway is becoming.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by pesto

I've mentioned that about Union Sq. before. Not only is it over a multi-level parking lot, with lots of street level entrances and exits, but it was specifically re-designed with minimal greenery and sitting areas to make it inconvenient for the homeless. Access is inconvenient on most sides. It is no better designed than Pershing Sq.; my guess is that the same criteria were used on each. The difference is that there is a thriving business, shopping, restaurant and entertainment district around it. That's what draws the people there. Improving Pershing Sq. is a very low priority since this will occur automatically when the hood attracts tourists, the middle class, etc.

Actually Union Sq looks so much better than Pershing Sq in many ways... no tacky colors like purple and yellow... now walls, and is evenly designed, one side looks exactly the same on the other side, with a beautiful monument at its center... whereas pershing is walled off, with eyesore colors, a horrific fugly purple bell tower and everything isn't evened out like in more east coast or sf squares. In pershing you have a lawn this side then a fountain that side and then seating here and then stairs there and public art here and then lets put a fake earthquake crack over on that corner and then lets but constellations on the fountain floor, even the fountain looks like its connected to a sewer or something.... dude.. its a damn mess.. why can't they make a simple and clean public square. Pershing is trying TOO hard...

i'd be proud to have something like Union Sq. or the old Pershing Square with that gorgeous cherub fountain =[

Thats just me though.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by citywatch

believe me, I wish you were correct. however, I've personally seen or read about similar reactions in too many ppl towards the hood going back a long time. I mentioned previously driving down broadway several months ago with relatives from OC, not thinking it would be too discouraging to them or me. Instead I ended up quite embarrassed for the city, not helped when my daughter scoffed "who'd shop at places like this?!". iow, if someone like me, who likes being a booster of LA will come away , then I can't expect any better of a reaction in others, esp ppl who'll visit DT with a "show me the money" tude or any city that is far removed from their own.

but I've also said that imho I think dtla is better today than its been in over 50 yrs, perhaps in certain ways better now than it has ever been.

Yea i could say the same... As you all know Im in a deep relationship with DTLA =] but when i just think about taking my family member or friends from sd or sf to broadway or anything east of pershing square i feel embarrassed.. i understand there's a lot of bars opening up and stuff around the historic core.. but its still really dirty. =/ other than that.. They all have been wanting to go to the Belasco Theater on friday night ever since i showed them this

Downtown is already starting to have the best nightlife in The City =D haha
http://youtu.be/C7n0Jz_jGJU

[BrandonJXN]

Originally Posted by LA/OCman

Two years ago I showed some family friends around Los Angeles. They were from Zagreb, Croatia and had never been to the US before. I had one full day to show them the city. They LOVED it. We started at the Getty and ended up Downtown. In between we drove thru Beverly Hills/Holby Hills, had a beer at the Avalon Hotel, walked around Beverly Hills, Weho, walked Hollywood and Highland, drove thru Koreatown, had Mexican food at the original El Cholo, ended up at my sister's loft in Luma and walked around Disney Hall at night. We ran out of time...I would have loved to show them more Downtown.

Citywatch, Los Angeles is most appreciated by those who can experience it from a local's perspective. I have had friend's from Switzerland and Paris enjoy their experiences. In fact, I have been told I should be a local tour guide..which I may consider. Downtown is best seen by a local. It is not like a European city. But if toured correctly, LA can be a gem! Showing a group from OC "Broadway" is not going to be impressive. Now if you call me up I would take them to the rooftop of the Eastern Columbia (have loft there), walk over to the Pattern Bar and Wood Spoon and have a nightcap at the Broadway Bar or Golden Gopher....they might have a different impression of what Broadway is becoming.

THIS. I had friends of mine from Chicago visit last year and I showed them around the city telling myself NOT to take them to touristy spots (well..we went to Hollywood and the normal stuff). LA is best seen when you do what locals do and NOT the tourist bullshit.

[StethJeff]

Originally Posted by colemonkee

I can tell you with some confidence that The Perch, and following later in 2012, The Must, will be a catalyst for creating activity around Pershing Square. I went to Perch last night, and there was a pretty good line downstairs until midnight or so. The place has only been open for a week or two, and it's already a HUGE success, and VERY few people know about it. Once it catches on, and The Must opens, activity on that corner will increase significantly. I see it as a major catalyst for existing retail spaces around Pershing Square over the next 6-12 months, and hopefully a catalyst for the eventual redevelopment of the Hotel Clark next door.

Big crowds are expected when a new place first opens, but I must say that I was pretty impressed with the activity in there this weekend. Although the rooftop bar space itself is not that interesting, the view and the way it interacts with the restaurant space below is terrific.

Despite the fact that we already have rooftop bars at Standard, the Bonaventure, and now Perch (any others?), DTLA can definitely use more of them. The weather, critical mass of people living in DTLA, popularity of DTLA as a place for nightlife, and the opportunity for different views due to the size of DTLA should create ample opportunities for similar venues. I wonder where the next one will be?

[LAofAnaheim]

Originally Posted by StethJeff

Despite the fact that we already have rooftop bars at Standard, the Bonaventure, and now Perch (any others?), DTLA can definitely use more of them. The weather, critical mass of people living in DTLA, popularity of DTLA as a place for nightlife, and the opportunity for different views due to the size of DTLA should create ample opportunities for similar venues. I wonder where the next one will be?

The brand new ICON lounge above Hooters in South Park is open air rooftop. It's already open.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/icon-la-ultra-lounge-los-angeles

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by LAofAnaheim

The brand new ICON lounge above Hooters in South Park is open air rooftop. It's already open.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/icon-la-ultra-lounge-los-angeles

The difference here is that Icon is trashy, withing survivable jumping distance of the ground, and in the middle of nowhere. Not what I would call aspirable.

[bmfarley]

I have been to a few "world" cities. London, Paris, Barcelona and Rome. New York and Chicago too.

Whether it is Downtown Los Angeles or one of the many city 'centers', what is needed are things to do beside shopping and entertainment. Needed are things that people can do.... to travel to some place with no particular agenda in hand. Whereas, they can fill their day as they go along. To do this, they need things to waunder around and look at things, and people-watch. People watching ability is important.

Below are elements I see occuring in 'world' cities that seem pretty succesful.

Plaza's with medium to large sized fountain's
Plaza's and statue's
Plaza's and parks ringed by outdoor cafe's with umbrella's
Views of historic buildings or something interesting
Museums with old things (vs. Contemporary/Modern Art)
And, away from the hussle and bustle of busy streets.

[pesto]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin

Actually Union Sq looks so much better than Pershing Sq in many ways... no tacky colors like purple and yellow... now walls, and is evenly designed, one side looks exactly the same on the other side, with a beautiful monument at its center... whereas pershing is walled off, with eyesore colors, a horrific fugly purple bell tower and everything isn't evened out like in more east coast or sf squares. In pershing you have a lawn this side then a fountain that side and then seating here and then stairs there and public art here and then lets put a fake earthquake crack over on that corner and then lets but constellations on the fountain floor, even the fountain looks like its connected to a sewer or something.... dude.. its a damn mess.. why can't they make a simple and clean public square. Pershing is trying TOO hard...

i'd be proud to have something like Union Sq. or the old Pershing Square with that gorgeous cherub fountain =[

Thats just me though.

I'll give you the tower. The rest is just not relevant. When it comes to street access, greenery, cement, room for seating, they are very similar. Union Sq. is a hard, cold, unwelcoming area by design; they had the same street-people problems as Pershing Sq. plus hippies and young dopesters. It just happens to be situated in the major shopping, tourism and entertainment district of NorCal. This allows them to fill the tables (which are access controlled and located on cement, so not at all part of a park-like environment) with people. Since there are so many people in the area, it naturally becomes the center for civic and ethnic events, rallies, events, etc.

But none of this is driven by the attractiveness of the square. It is driven by the millions of people already in the area. You can redesign Pershing Sq. to your heart's content; don't make no difference unless we get more upscale residents, tourists, business people and shoppers.

[pesto]

Originally Posted by bmfarley

I have been to a few "world" cities. London, Paris, Barcelona and Rome. New York and Chicago too.

Whether it is Downtown Los Angeles or one of the many city 'centers', what is needed are things to do beside shopping and entertainment. Needed are things that people can do.... to travel to some place with no particular agenda in hand. Whereas, they can fill their day as they go along. To do this, they need things to waunder around and look at things, and people-watch. People watching ability is important.

Below are elements I see occuring in 'world' cities that seem pretty succesful.

Plaza's with medium to large sized fountain's
Plaza's and statue's
Plaza's and parks ringed by outdoor cafe's with umbrella's
Views of historic buildings or something interesting
Museums with old things (vs. Contemporary/Modern Art)
And, away from the hussle and bustle of busy streets.

Agreed that these are important for visitors to take back a good impression. LA's lack of statues and monuments is one of the most overlooked reasons why the city is not attractive to tourists. It's almost an automatic reaction for a visitor to go over and look at this kind of public art and then settle into a cafe or plaza that has a view of it.

Generalizing from the lack of public art, at the root of most of the problems with DT is the lack of any particular reason to go to the area in the first place. Once the visitor crowds start, they feed on themselves and become part of the action itself. (How interesting is Piccadilly or Times Sq. when nobody is there?). The approach really is to renovate it bit by bit until it becomes whole again. And this process seems to be proceding.

[Quixote]

Lack of monuments and statues... yeah, that's it. Other than DC and NYC (Statue of Liberty and the rebuilt WTC complex), what other American cities have monuments? Please don't say SF (Coit Tower) and Chicago (Water Tower).

Shopping, dining, and entertainment absolutely are enough to generate activity, congestion, and rave reviews. It's called Old Town Pasadena and it's uber-successful.

What needs to be said is that shopping, dining, and entertainment alone do not make a place interesting. Distinctive buildings, large public gathering spaces for people watching, intimate spaces for leisurely strolls, interesting public art, etc. are what make a city extra enjoyable and worth coming back to.

[yeah215]

Originally Posted by pesto

I've mentioned that about Union Sq. before. Not only is it over a multi-level parking lot, with lots of street level entrances and exits, but it was specifically re-designed with minimal greenery and sitting areas to make it inconvenient for the homeless. Access is inconvenient on most sides. It is no better designed than Pershing Sq.; my guess is that the same criteria were used on each. The difference is that there is a thriving business, shopping, restaurant and entertainment district around it. That's what draws the people there. Improving Pershing Sq. is a very low priority since this will occur automatically when the hood attracts tourists, the middle class, etc.

Pershing Square can be better than Union Square. Union Square still has massive parking entrances that break up the sidewalk in front of the park.

With thoughtful design, Pershing Square's garage entrances could be integrated into developments across the street. That would allow the entire park to open up to the street.

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by Westsidelife

Lack of monuments and statues... yeah, that's it. Other than DC and NYC (Statue of Liberty and the rebuilt WTC complex), what other American cities have monuments? Please don't say SF (Coit Tower) and Chicago (Water Tower).

Chicago and Detroit both have various statues and monuments littered around downtown. Salt Lake City is known for elaborate fountains, which I would consider a monument.