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  #2481  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 5:31 PM
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Questions from WV:

>>> 1. What grid spacing should bike lanes have on the road grid? In a hypothetical rectolinear grid, there would be an X distance between- say the streets- and a Y distance between the avenues. Maybe 1 kilometer?

The theoretical answer is that every street should have bike facilities. The more practical answer is that you probably can't expect regular folks to go more than 2-3 blocks out of their way, so you need a facility at least every 5 blocks (so that you're never more than 2.5 blocks away from one).

>>> 2. if such a grid of bicycle lanes were laid out, where would the bicyclists ride between dedicated lanes of the bicycle grid? On the street or the sidewalk?

It's safer and more convenient for bikes to be on the street unless it's a major arterial.

>>> 3. On streets with bicycle lanes, does that mean that cars cannot parallel park on the outside of the bike lane? If permitted on the inside, what about open doors?

This is a regular bike lane, with cars parked between the bike lane and the curb. PROS: This is the easiest/cheapest kind of bike lane to install, and the bikeway surface is smooth. CONS: Cars often block the lane, and open doors from parked cars ("dooring") is a significant safety problem.

This is a cycle track, with the bike lane situated between the row of parked cars and the curb, and a painted buffer wide enough to avoid dooring. PROS: Much safer for cyclists and better at encouraging more people to bike. CONS: More expensive to install, usually a more rumbly surface for bikes, and usually reduces the amount of parking you can fit on each block by a car or two.

>>> 4. If I had hit him due to someone opening their car door in his way, should I be liable? Should the occupant of the car who opened his car door be liable?

In most states the person who opened their door into traffic would be liable. Bikes count as traffic, and it is illegal to open your door into traffic.

>>> 5. What, besides convenience do dedicated bike lanes provide?

That's a little like asking "what, besides convenience, do paved roads provide?"

Better infrastructure encourages more use. Dedicated bike infrastructure increases bicyclist safety, and increases the number of people who ride bikes. That, in turn, has larger consequences.

First of all, since bike infrastructure is much less expensive to produce and maintain than driving or transit infrastructure, the per capita cost of the transportation network drops significantly the more people we can get to bike.

Secondly, bike-friendly cities are much more safe than bike-unfriendly ones, for everyone (not just cyclists). Streets designed primarily for cars are extremely dangerous. Car accidents kill 3-4 times as many Americans annually as crime. Most suburbs are statistically more dangerous than urban ghettos, because of the high car accident rate in suburban areas designed around driving. When it comes to bicycling, there is safety in numbers. One or two bicyclists don't make a difference, but if you have enough cyclists in your city so that car drivers learn to expect them on streets and adapt their driving to compensate (meaning they go slower and are more careful to watch where they're going), the street becomes safer for everyone.

Third, bikes require no fuel, meaning they don't pollute and don't contribute to fuel demand.

Finally, since bikes reduce the demand for car parking lots, they increase the efficiency of land use, resulting in cross-benefits to transit, pedestrians, and everything associated with Smart Growth. We can produce much more walkable and sustainable cities if we don't have to build huge parking lots for every building.

In short, we want to encourage lots of biking, and providing dedicated infrastructure is the best way to do it.

>>> 6. Should bicyclists or the bikes themselves be required to carry some type of insurance? My opinion is to license bikes and bicyclists and have some kind of insurance.

That wouldn't be practical (unless you want to try and license 4 year old children), and definitely wouldn't be desirable. We want to encourage biking for the reasons outlined above. Given that we already heavily discourage bicycling by virtue of inadequate infrastructure, adopting further barriers to entry would very likely kill non-recreational bicycling altogether, resulting in more expensive, less safe, less efficient, less sustainable cities. The negative consequences would far outweigh the benefits.

I'd be OK with requiring anyone over the age of 18 who rides a bike on a public street to carry ID, meaning they can be ticketed if they break a traffic law. That's as far as I'd be willing to go. Failure to carry a valid ID while biking would be tantamount to failure to carry a license while driving.

>>> 7. If you have a dedicated bicycling grid, should the bicyclists be able to ride their bikes on parallel streets? ... I can see their practicality if bikers had to dismount and walk their bikes between dedicated bike lanes in the grid

Think of dedicated bike facilities as the arterial streets of the bike network. They're not the *only* streets, they're the *arteries*. You wouldn't outlaw driving on local streets and force everyone to walk to the nearest arterial before allowing them to get in their car, would you? You can't do it for bikes either. Doing so would completely kill the practicality of bicycling.

If you do not allow bicycling in mixed traffic then EVERY street needs a dedicated bike lane. Period. This compromise idea of only providing good bike facilities every few blocks is contingent on bicyclists being able to reasonably access them. If you cut off reasonable access then the facilities are useless, and there is no compromise deal.

>>> 8. Have enforceable laws governing bicycle traffic and penalties for breaking them. If this were done, then dedicated bicycle lanes make a lot of sense.

I am totally in favor of adopting reasonable laws and then enforcing them, but unless you're willing to say that we shouldn't spend any more money on car infrastructure until all drivers stay within the speed limit, you cannot legitimately withhold your endorsement of investments in cycling based on imperfect behavior from cyclists. It is intellectually dishonest to demand perfect behavior from all cyclists while excusing universal lawbreaking by car drivers. Your demands are a two-way street.

With all due respect, questions 5-8 are classic examples of the "windshield perspective" phenomenon, whereby people think in terms of what they see from behind the wheel of a car rather than in terms of what makes sense overall. It's not a good way to run our cities, as the latter half of the 20th Century proved. We can't (and shouldn't) ignore cars, but we also can't allow their needs to dictate everything we do.

The fact that large numbers of bicyclists require city drivers to adjust their behavior does not mean we should regulate bikes out of existence. Bikers can't expect to get everything they want all the time, but neither can drivers. Living in cities requires all people to compromise.
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  #2482  
Old Posted Aug 5, 2011, 5:39 PM
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In other news, DenverUrbanism has a nice post up today about the bike facilities at Union Station. Here is a map:

Basically, we'll get some sort of facility on 16th Street (maybe dedicated lanes, maybe just sharrows), with mixed traffic on the other CPV streets.

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  #2483  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 2:11 AM
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NIce write up Cirrus. Of course, I still am very skeptical of the bicycle movement as it exists.

"With all due respect, questions 5-8 are classic examples of the "windshield perspective" phenomenon, whereby people think in terms of what they see from behind the wheel of a car rather than in terms of what makes sense overall. It's not a good way to run our cities, as the latter half of the 20th Century proved. We can't (and shouldn't) ignore cars, but we also can't allow their needs to dictate everything we do."

I commuted about 400 miles one summer to work. I was pushing it. of course, but I cheated with the great bicyclists rule: public transit up hill, ride down hill. I understand what it means to HAVE to ride a bike. In 2008, I went looking for a car on a bicycle (talk about not being able to get a good deal: what leverage does one have meeting a private party with a car for sale, on a bike? LOL in retrospect).

I do stick to my basic position that most bicycling, outside of small scale neighborhood bike riding, has to be hybrid: that is one's bicycle provides a segment of the commute or trip to Lodo etc. As currently designed and operated, the vast majority of Denver's buses can carry only two bicycles (and 30 to 60 or more people) and our light rail 2 per light rail car. This, IMO, points to parking at transit nodes as being the key to making massive bicycle travel a reality.

From what I understand (no references here) about 130,000 people commute into Lodo, Uptown, and the Broadway Strip, north of sixth. Perhaps 20,000 people- not riders which would be 2x- commute by light rail, and, a similiar number by bus. That leaves approximately 90,000 people who commute by car, and, the total becomes far higher, IMO, when park'n'rides at bus nodes and light rail stations are included.

The urban population that lives in the same area might be 35,000 thousand or so. Of these, a small percentage ride bicycles, and as many are old, infirm, or just don't desire that experience, maybe 500 or 1000 commute downtown by bicycle, and, perhaps another 500 commute downtown by light rail or bus with bicycling as part of their commute.

I do not disagree that with the hard times coming that many more people will use bicycles. My main point is that the approach behind building bicyle lanes downtown and along a few arterials is not what should be done now, i.e., advertising the benefits of, and, providing facilities for bicycle parking along the public transportation arteries- a far more practical way to get people to bicycle as PART of their commute or trip downtown, etc.

Bicycling should not be elitist. Bicycling should be practical. For example, if I live near a light rail- say 1000 yards on foot- and assuming no large intersections with lights are in my path- I might have to take 12 or 14 minutes to get to a rail station. By bike, that could take me 4 or 5 minutes, at a leisurely speed. Double that per commute, and I save 10 to 20 minutes per commute trip. In a week that adds up to 50 to 100 minutes. This also applies to a well designed bus part'n'ride with good bus connections in a residential neighborhood.

Remember bicycling efficientcies are generated when compared to FOOT travel. For example, with the DUS Civic Station strip I have the Mall shuttle, and the only time walking between 18th and 14th Streets between DUS and Colfax at Broadway is the time to walk 2 blocks.

While serving those hardy idealists with downtown dedicated bike routes has merit, the key, IMO, to encourage many more bicyclists, is to increase the convenience bicycling could have in getting to nodal transportation points. Put the bike lanes, first, as spokes out of park'n'rides and have secure parking facilites at the stations and many more will take the option in good weather.
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  #2484  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 2:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cirrus View Post
In other news, DenverUrbanism has a nice post up today about the bike facilities at Union Station. Here is a map:

Basically, we'll get some sort of facility on 16th Street (maybe dedicated lanes, maybe just sharrows), with mixed traffic on the other CPV streets.

This will make it convenient for commuters to LIVE downtown and commute out (right now the pickings are pretty sparse commuting away from downtown).

And maybe from a real estate development standpoint that is good.

As I stated in my thoughts above, however, the emphasis needs to be in the OTHER DIRECTION.
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  #2485  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 5:30 AM
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i am struggling with 17th street here...am i seeing this correctly that 18th street dead ends instead of looping back to 17th the same way 16th does? oh boy...

symmetry has value in its predictability, especialy for peds and bikers then cars, and especially since there is a shuttle on that side too....if the connections are less sensible on that side then the retail is likel to suffer i'd say.

"ken" anybody confirm?
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  #2486  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 5:39 AM
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eh, nevermind...that must be the ramp to the bus facility that 18th turns into...so next question, where does it become bus-only?
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  #2487  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
As for the left turn lane at Wewatta, whatever it looks like today, that is destined to be a major major street. It's the only real access to the entire Union Station neighborhood. And only really ties into downtown at two places, 15th and Park (and Speer, I suppose). It is inconceivable to me that those turn lanes won't be over-capacity on day one.
Quote:
Yes, pick the only stretch of 15th with a 5-lane ROW.
So you go from arguing that only one block has enough ROW (actually the entire length of 15th street from colfax to platte st is 5 lanes except under the bridge), to saying that eventually, sometime in the future, those lanes will be filled up with cars, so we cannot possibly share the road with any other users. given that this is the only major connection between two dense downtown neighborhoods, it makes even more sense to accommodate other modes of transportation, even if it ends up slowing down your precious automobiles.
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  #2488  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 4:39 PM
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I admittedly forgot that the left turn lane extends to Wazee. Doesn't solve the underpass problem, and doesn't change the fact that the left turn lane at Wewatta will be absolutely necessary (not as much at those other streets probably) and taking a lane out is a non-starter.

I gave you the traffic counts. I don't have them for the turning movements at Wewatta, and with all the construction, they've probably not done any, certainly not in the current configuration. But they maybe necessary already given the high traffic on 15th. But regardless, knowing they'll be needed in a few years regardless, nobody is about to remove them now, that's an asinine suggestion.

Quit whining and take your bike across the 16th ped bridges. Or tell us why that's not good enough. The DUS plan there looks like bicycle thru-traffic is (and probably already is) intended to use 16th and 18th.

Last edited by bunt_q; Aug 6, 2011 at 4:50 PM.
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  #2489  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcp View Post
i am struggling with 17th street here...am i seeing this correctly that 18th street dead ends instead of looping back to 17th the same way 16th does? oh boy...

symmetry has value in its predictability, especialy for peds and bikers then cars, and especially since there is a shuttle on that side too....if the connections are less sensible on that side then the retail is likel to suffer i'd say.

"ken" anybody confirm?
I don't think either 16th or 18th is intended to loop beyond (west of) Chestnut for general traffic. I suppose 18th and 19th will need building access (and probably space for a turnaround bulb, to keep cars from mistakenly using the bus lanes?).
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  #2490  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmintz View Post
So you go from arguing that only one block has enough ROW (actually the entire length of 15th street from colfax to platte st is 5 lanes except under the bridge), to saying that eventually, sometime in the future, those lanes will be filled up with cars, so we cannot possibly share the road with any other users. given that this is the only major connection between two dense downtown neighborhoods, it makes even more sense to accommodate other modes of transportation, even if it ends up slowing down your precious automobiles.
Seriously, what the hell is your problem, dmintz? With the underpass being a serious issue of concern, you still attack bunt's and my own comments about taking a lane being out of the question? Okay, take a lane on 15th until you get to LoDo, but then ride your Damn bike onto the millennium bridge.

I have no problem with bike lanes, but I also have no problem routing them where the required right of way exists and doesn't end up creating a major choke point for cars.

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #2491  
Old Posted Aug 6, 2011, 11:19 PM
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Just to play devils advocate, but isn't it pretty well established that car usage is going to drop significantly in the near future? Think about if the world had the foresight to see 50 years down the road, into our current situations. Might this be a similar situation?
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  #2492  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2011, 12:28 AM
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Just to play devils advocate, but isn't it pretty well established that car usage is going to drop significantly in the near future? Think about if the world had the foresight to see 50 years down the road, into our current situations. Might this be a similar situation?
Absolutely, IMO. And, if a magic source of energy- like being able to use star power, magnetism, or cosmic rays, came into being- the vast majority of commuters, shoppers, etc., would go back to driving cars.

Other than young people, and, few aged idealists, the overwhelming majority of people will never abandon driving cars unless they HAVE to. Not only that, but people will take buses, jitneys, carpool, etc., first, before they HAVE to get on the bicycle when it's 35 degrees and drizzling and travel to someplace they MUST go.

I strongly believe that the age of the automobile will end in the US. Many people will fight this end, thrashing politicians, blaming OPEC, China, etc. as they are pulled screaming out of their immobile cars. Regardless, this will happen, and, IMO, the trend towards less auto travel is enplace NOW.

Bicycling is NOT the solution, anymore than rapid transit is. People will choose what works best for them, based upon where they life, how much things cost, how much money they have, the state of their health, and, personal inclination.

What we are seeing now, IMO, is genteel speculation. In 2030, or maybe even in 2020, people who are fortunate enough to have a bill paying job anywhere in Denver, will get there one way or another.

I has said this all along: the vast majority of us are not looking at the "handwriting on the wall" and that writing is pointing to our using less solo occupant auto driving whether we like it or not.

Make bike riding convenient to transit. Make transit quick and metro wide. Whether we reacte or not, the change towards post-automobile has started in the US. Who really cares about whether a certain street has a bike ROW- if 10,000 people appear downtown after a commute on bicycles, the ROW situation will change in two weeks.
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  #2493  
Old Posted Aug 7, 2011, 2:03 AM
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Seriously, what the hell is your problem, dmintz? With the underpass being a serious issue of concern, you still attack bunt's and my own comments about taking a lane being out of the question? Okay, take a lane on 15th until you get to LoDo, but then ride your Damn bike onto the millennium bridge.

I have no problem with bike lanes, but I also have no problem routing them where the required right of way exists and doesn't end up creating a major choke point for cars.

Aaron (Glowrock)
I agree Glowrook.

Besides, if you look at Cirrus's posting of the traffic, and, bike paths, between Union Station and points north all bike traffic going north-south must dismount, take one of two elevator options, after which, when traveling north, they emerge into the heatrland of the Riverfront development.

Bike travel here is just a sales pitch- selling the ambience of the life style north of the BNSF tracks. (And if my money were involved -assuming I had any-, I'd put a minimum of money into the bicycle pot, and, sell the option via colorful websites, etc. This is just the way pre-2008 designed urban renewal tends to be in the US)

When the office complexes are built up, IMO, the east-west streets will be very busy. Weweeta may end up the businest southwest-northeastern street in the entire Colfax/Broadway definied triangle. Imagine the hordes of cars pouring off 20th Ave during AM rush and going the other way in the evenings. How will commercial truck traffic service the new buildings without being able to use the 16th Street extension due to the Mall Shuttle (is that road narrow or do my eyes decieve me?)

Add huge numbers of buses into the mix, too.

Besides, if, as I suspect, once the West Line opens, the Light Rail end of the DUS complex is going to very busy, with a plethora of pedestrians going somewhere besides into the Underground Bus Station.

Be happy you will have 2 elevators to use.
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Good read on relationship between increasing number of freeway lanes and traffic

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  #2494  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 3:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
I do stick to my basic position that most bicycling, outside of small scale neighborhood bike riding, has to be hybrid: that is one's bicycle provides a segment of the commute or trip to Lodo etc. As currently designed and operated, the vast majority of Denver's buses can carry only two bicycles (and 30 to 60 or more people) and our light rail 2 per light rail car. This, IMO, points to parking at transit nodes as being the key to making massive bicycle travel a reality
I agree. The percentage of people who are willing to bike long distances will never be much higher than it is now (which is to say, long distance cycling will always be a niche activity). It's the short trips that are where cycling's major impacts will be found. It's also one of the reasons bikesharing has such potential.

But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
While serving those hardy idealists with downtown dedicated bike routes has merit, the key, IMO, to encourage many more bicyclists, is to increase the convenience bicycling could have in getting to nodal transportation points. Put the bike lanes, first, as spokes out of park'n'rides and have secure parking facilites at the stations and many more will take the option in good weather.
You're dealing with two different groups. One group is the urbanist market for whom most daily activities take place in the central city, and for whom alternative transportation is increasingly more convenient than driving for all trips (as opposed to just commute trips). Then there's the second group, which is the suburban market for whom access to transit for commuting purposes is the leading utility for bikes.

The suburban group is probably larger currently, but it's also much more spread out. While the total number of cyclists accessing suburban park and rides may be greater than the total number of cyclists in the central city, the number of cyclists accessing any one particular park and ride will generally be lower than the number using any particular downtown facility.

Also, when bikesharing is brought into mix as a downtown circulator that those suburban PnR riders can use on the destination end of their commute, then the situation is that downtown is getting riders from both groups, which makes it quite clear that downtown is where the first investments should be made.

One final point in regards to park and ride commuting: In the same way that transit is most useful where it supports smart growth-friendly changes to land use, cycling is also most useful where it supports car-light urban living. I don't deny the utility of suburban access to transit cycling, but at the same time, I'd much rather pour limited resources into making the inner city work as a bona fide urban place. The ceiling for what we might someday get out of bikes is much higher in the core than the suburbs. So while I agree completely that we need good access to suburban transit nodes, I see that as a lower priority than getting the central city in order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WV
Other than young people, and, few aged idealists, the overwhelming majority of people will never abandon driving cars unless they HAVE to.
This is absolutely not true. Most people are not dogmatic about transportation; they use whatever forms are most convenient. Right now, in most of America and most of Colorado, cars are the most convenient. But that is not an inherent trait of cars, it's merely a reflection of our built environment. As central Denver becomes more urban, the convenience of cars in relation to other modes will change. Cars will get gradually less convenient and other modes, including cycling, will become more so.

It's true that some people will choose urban living because of the cost of oil, but lots of people will also choose it for other reasons, and those people will increasingly find cycling easier than driving for many trips.

Also, I don't know how you define "young people" (under 20? 30? 40?), but I do not accept the line of thinking that suggests only middle-aged married people with children matter. The demographics of our country are not the same in 2011 as they were in 1950. "Young people" make up an absolutely huge portion of our population. We should not ignore them.
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  #2495  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 3:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunt_q
Quit whining and take your bike across the 16th ped bridges. Or tell us why that's not good enough. The DUS plan there looks like bicycle thru-traffic is (and probably already is) intended to use 16th and 18th
I don't have a problem with the diversion to 16th/18th, but I do have a problem with the fact that you have to get off you bike and either walk or take an elevator in order to use either of those diversions. That's definitely not an optimal solution, and we shouldn't pretend it is. Telling bikers they have to go a couple of blocks out of their way AND get off their bikes is hitting them twice. It's the equivalent of taking down all the bridges over the valley and making cars who want to cross the Platte drive 5 miles out of their way in order get onto one of these:


flickr photo by chriggy1

Options for a better crossing could be lanes on the streets, new bridges, or sloped ramps tacked onto the existing bridges (it was a major oversight to design the new ped bridges without them).

If we aren't willing to do that then we should at least admit that getting bikes across the valley isn't a priority, and stop trying to sell a sub-optimal solution as an optimal one. We're not obligated to make everything easy for everyone all the time, but let's at least be honest with ourselves when we don't.
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Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 5:04 PM
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let's not forget that the union station group nixed the very improtant 18th street connection from lodo to the valley...this will really dump alot of traffic (car, bike and ped) on 20th street and hostile, narrow 15th street.

on that last point, one of my biggest nightmares is some PW wonk down the road saying "hey we better widen 15th street"...
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  #2497  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 5:12 PM
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^ Well put. I read the recent entry at Denver Urbanisim,
Quote:
Bike lanes on 16th Street from Wynkoop to the Millennium Bridge, providing key connectivity to the Wynkoop bike lane, Cherry Creek bike path, 18th Street bike lane, and future 15th Street cycle track.
What does the 15th street cycle track entail? Is it planned for just the CPV or the length of 15th?
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  #2498  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 5:40 PM
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I'd like to see more info on that as well.

I googled "Denver 'cycle track'" and discovered the recently-completed Bannock Street path, which the city is calling a cycle track. It's not really a cycle track because it's off-street, but is still a nice-looking facility. (Edit: Except apparently it just randomly ends.)

Pictures at Denver.gov news release.
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Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 5:51 PM
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So they made a block long cycle track and then just terminated it into the sidewalk? I assume this will be expanded along Bannock at some point.
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  #2500  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2011, 11:26 PM
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So they made a block long cycle track and then just terminated it into the sidewalk? I assume this will be expanded along Bannock at some point.
Yes, build-as-you-go.
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