DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by glowrock

I don't believe for a minute your claim that the poor bicyclists simply MUST run red lights and do other illegal things because they are trying to get ahead of traffic

It's not about "getting ahead of traffic", it's about the laws of physics. It's about conservation of energy. Stopping and (especially) starting is much more difficult for a cyclist than a car, because bikes are human powered. Every time you have to stop and start on a bike you lose energy, which you are supplying yourself. Imagine coasting down a hill on a bike and then coming to a stop at the bottom. Now imagine you've got to climb up another hill on the other side of the light. It's going to be much, much more physically demanding to do so because that stop robbed you of all your momentum.

This doesn't mean that bikes shouldn't have to stop at red lights, but it might mean that bikes should be allowed to treat red lights like stop signs, and to treat stop signs like yield signs.

Right now, the rules aren't serving the needs of cyclists. That doesn't mean cyclists should be allowed to ignore them, but it absolutely does mean that the rules should be reconsidered.

[awholeparade]

I think that getting ahead of traffic is a valid reason, as it should be. I think that most would agree that the urban environment should be difficult for cars to navigate. Bikes are a natural solution, but if you strip them of the very things that make them such an appealing alternative, what's the point? It seems like the opponents, whether they want to admit it, when it really comes down to it, just don't "get" bikes.

[Cirrus]

It seems like the opponents, whether they want to admit it, when it really comes down to it, just don't "get" bikes.

I do think there's a lot of this. There's an intellectually conservative streak in most people (myself included) that tends to think anything new or different is stupid. We are creatures of habit, after all. Folks in cars used to being cut off by rude drivers 5 times a day will chalk it up to normal behavior, but they'll remember the one time 6 months ago that someone in a bike did it, and hate bikes because of it. It's not that people are necessarily anti-bike, they're just anti-different, and bikes are different.

It took me years to "get" bikes.

[dmintz]

Originally Posted by glowrock

I don't believe for a minute your claim that the poor bicyclists simply MUST run red lights and do other illegal things because they are trying to get ahead of traffic, dmintz. This is patently ridiculous.

Yes, does there need to be an education campaign conducted for BOTH drivers and bicyclists? Absolutely! But to somehow explain away the abject stupidity of some bicyclists by saying they're feeling unsafe and are trying to stay ahead of traffic is just inane.

If you are ever in NYC, take a bike ride down the 9th avenue cycle track. Here bikes are separate from cars and have their own traffic lights which allow for cars to take left turns. when traffic is not a free for all, cyclist here actually do stop for red lights. DOT studies showed sidewalk riding is down 80% and injuries are down 50%. In other places there is little motivation for bikers to follow traffic laws which make no effort to accommodate them safely.

why are there so many bikers riding on the crowded sidewalks of south broadway in my neighborhood? because only 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 bikers feel safe enough riding on that street. at the denver moves meetings I went to, there was a strong push to get a cycle track on broadway and this was part of the plan until the very end when they had it stripped. i guarantee you will not see riders on the side walk of s.broadway if they installed a protected bike lane.

[taylor23]

Just noticed there are new flyover video's for the East and Gold lines on the FasTracks site.

http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/ec_1
http://www.rtd-fastracks.com/gl_1

[seventwenty]

http://www.lifeoncaphill.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2315&Itemid=6

“We have seen a substantial increase in daily usage of B-Cycles,” said Parry Burnap, executive director of Denver Bike Sharing, when making the announcement July 25. “With close to 1,000 rides per day in July and more than 200,000 rides total from both seasons combined, we’re excited to see the environmental, economic, and public health benefits bike-sharing has on the community.”

The record-setting is more impressive when one considers the unseasonable monsoon rains experienced for many days last month.

Yay B-Cycle! Out here in Boston, Hubway just dropped their bike sharing system. While $5 for 30 min trips is fine, and Hubway's bike may beat the T much (most?) of the time, I find the bikes to be underpowered. It seems like you're peddling like hell, but the forward movement doesn't match you peddling. Is that how B-cycle works?

[awholeparade]

Denver bikes have 3-speed internal geared hubs, so you shouldn't be experiencing that, unless maybe going downhill. I can't imagine Boston, or any other city would make their bikes without gears.

[Cirrus]

Boston's bikes have 3 gears.


source: flickr user iamtonyang

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Boston's bikes have 3 gears.


source: flickr user iamtonyang

The 🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 bicyclists I know think highly of 1 speed bikes.

[seventwenty]

Thanks Cirrus. Apologies for not making my observation clearer: No matter which gear a Hubway bike is in, it feels underpowered. If B-Cycle bikes don't have that problem, awesome. I'll find out myself next week.

[awholeparade]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

The 🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 bicyclists I know think highly of 1 speed bikes.

Yes, singlespeed bikes are very trendy right now.

EDIT: They are ideal for winter riding.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by awholeparade

Yes, singlespeed bikes are very trendy right now.

EDIT: They are ideal for winter riding.

Winter bicyclists are truly a unique breed- particularly those who find ice and snow a challenge. With the sun shining on open ground, the cold can be bad enough, even in metro Denver, but, when black ice lurks in the darkness and snow is starting to spit from the sky....

Even the best fall in the winter.

Too old anymore. Just remember how much harder the ground feels at 25 F.

[Cirrus]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

The 🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 bicyclists I know think highly of 1 speed bikes.

🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 bicyclists are not the target market for bikesharing.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

🞵🞵🞵🞵 🞵🞵🞵🞵 bicyclists are not the target market for bikesharing.

Bike sharing, IMO, is primarily a tourist gig at this point. And, a good one, I might add. Bicycle 'Awareness' is a Green Tag.

Renting bikes, IMO, is simply not practical on any large scale. Bike commuting still has to center on storing personally owned bikes, stored at transportation nodes, with the final transportation portion on foot. While there may be merit for such a transportation on a mass scale in small European countries with older, denser urban fabrics and less suburban sprawl, we in the US will need to complete the triad of public steel wheel transport, public rubber wheeled transport, and, rebuilding our urban fabric so that transit end connections are an easy walk to final destinations.

Until that time, the idea is a Chamber of Commerce sales pitch.

[Cirrus]

Tourists might be the main beneficiary of B-cycle as it's currently configured, but they are absolutely not the main target market in the long term.

The long term target market is inner city residents going about their daily business. It's the people who live downtown and in downtown-adjacent neighborhoods that most use and most benefit from bikesharing in most cities. When B-cycle has enough bikes to cover Five Points, Capitol Hill, and Highlands with stations as densely as it has covered downtown, that's when you'll see it come into its own among residents.

B-cycle is still immature. They need at least twice as many stations. In another couple of years they'll have them.

[DenverInfill]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Tourists might be the main beneficiary of B-cycle as it's currently configured, but they are absolutely not the main target market in the long term.

The long term target market is inner city residents going about their daily business. It's the people who live downtown and in downtown-adjacent neighborhoods that most use and most benefit from bikesharing in most cities. When B-cycle has enough bikes to cover Five Points, Capitol Hill, and Highlands with stations as densely as it has covered downtown, that's when you'll see it come into its own among residents.

B-cycle is still immature. They need at least twice as many stations. In another couple of years they'll have them.

Today as I was walking to work and was near the B-Cycle station at Little Raven/Commons Park, a guy in business clothes carrying a lunch bag rode up on a B-Cycle, parked it in the rack and walked across the bridge and into LoDo. I was pleased by this simple example of how B-Cycle seems to work for this commuter. Anyway, to me B-Cycle's value lies in it being yet another OPTION for people to get around. The best cities offer people as many options as possible for mobility.

[dmintz]

Originally Posted by seventwenty

Thanks Cirrus. Apologies for not making my observation clearer: No matter which gear a Hubway bike is in, it feels underpowered. If B-Cycle bikes don't have that problem, awesome. I'll find out myself next week.

i imagine they are similiar. these bikes are heavy and stable compared to regular road bikes so they can take abuse, but are not very quick. I grew up in Newton and am interested in how hubway will work since Boston seems so hostile to biking. I think NYC is doing it right- build the bike lanes first and then add bikeshare, not the other way around.

[bunt_q]

I think you're giving New York too much credit, probably just to thrown around the New York name (which, by the way, as Matt learned a long time ago, doesn't actually resonate too well in Denver). I'm just waiting to hear something about Portland in here too.

Is NYC's bicycle network really all that comprehensive? I can count on one hand the number of "bikeways" I see on here (the green lines). The rest are on-street bike lanes (red), which aren't exactly unknown in Denver (black solid lines on the gridded color routes on the Denver map).

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not claiming "good enough" by any stretch. But when I compare bike maps between a city of 8-million-and-change (or even just Manhattan, with its paltry 1.6 million) versus a city of 600,000, I'd say Denver's doing pretty dang well. You've gotta be fair when you're comparing like infrastructure and costs in cities with such a huge taxpaying population (and general 'walkability') disparity. With all the talking up of NYC I've seen in this thread, I expected a few more red and green lines on there; a more convincing this-is-good-for-bikes map.

(warning, big PDFs)

NYC: http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/2011_bikemap.pdf
Denver:http://www.denvergov.org/Portals/708/documents/Bicycle%20News/BikeMap1.pdf

[dmintz]

actually I am throwing out NYC as an example because I lived there for 3 years during the most intense build out of bike lanes (2006-2009). The network is definitely not comprehensive but if you look at lower manhattan and downtown brooklyn the connectivity is excellent. You see those green lines on 1st, 2nd, 8th and 9th avenues and broadway? those use to be traffic lanes which were converted into protected cycletracks, a concept you can't seem to grasp.

but my post had nothing to do with comparing denver to nyc. i was comparing nyc to boston (where i grew up). I am not one of those people always wishing things could be like nyc. there's a reason I left new york, although i admire bloomberg's commitment to biking as transportation.

i've never been to portland so i can't speak to what's going on there.

[glowrock]

dmintz, there's nothing wrong with taking away a traffic lane when there's feasibly enough lanes to do so. Taking a lane out of a four-lane major artery is a recipe for disaster, however. Want to take a lane off of Broadway or Lincoln? Fine by me, there are more than enough traffic lanes to do it. But on 15th between LoDo and Highlands? No way...

Aaron (Glowrock)