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  #4141  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2011, 3:07 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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be shale gas if anything; you think Honeywell's contaminated Hintonburg's water? just wait! ;-)
Frack, baby, frack! Papa needs a new suit o' clothes!
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  #4142  
Old Posted Jul 25, 2011, 12:31 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Yeah, so where's the Inteprovincial Transit Thing at?

http://www.interprovincial-transit-strategy.ca/ProjectOverview/tabid/102/Default.aspx

Isn't it "mid 2011"?
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  #4143  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2011, 3:53 PM
MountainView MountainView is offline
 
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Just noticed that OC Transpo is putting little green "check your route" flags hanging underneath all the current Bus Stop Flags advising its customers to check their route for changes... How is this a way to save money? Most people are aware that changes are happening and I'm sure have noticed the large green banner on the OC Transpo website? Perhaps the average bus rider doesn't actually use OC's website...
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  #4144  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2011, 4:36 PM
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gjhall gjhall is offline
 
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Perhaps the average bus rider doesn't actually use OC's website...
Ding ding!

Also, advertising costs and operating costs are not exactly comparable. Would you really advocate that OC Transpo not alert people to major changes to the routes?
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  #4145  
Old Posted Jul 27, 2011, 7:48 PM
MountainView MountainView is offline
 
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Also, advertising costs and operating costs are not exactly comparable. Would you really advocate that OC Transpo not alert people to major changes to the routes?
No, I'm not implying that they do not alert people of the many changes... just seems redundant because their website shows the information and the newspaper and tv news has been covering it as well. But advertising costs are a separate entity so it's not exactly comparable, but to me it seems like a waste of money.
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  #4146  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 1:36 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
 
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Bayview Station to the Escarpment:
The LRT plan has the train up on top of the Bayview station (elevation about 65 metres above sea level), from which it dives down to pass under the extension of Preston Street (54.5 metres); a distance of about 250 metres, accounting for vertical curves at each end of the slope. This slope of just over 4% is not at the limit of the LRT specification, but it is also not a gentle slope. (It does exceed the maximum slope for heavy rail so conversion to a full subway is precluded by this section.)

The ‘old’ plan, which had the train dive into its western portal just east of the LeBreton Station, had to have the tracks running at grade by Preston Street since there was not room after Preston to get low enough to pass under Booth Street; and passing over Booth was not an option as the train was to go immediately into the tunnel.

This plan has some draw-backs, though. Booth Street needs to be totally rebuilt and raised from Albert Street to the Ottawa River Parkway and in order to clear the LRT and the aqueduct this will need to be raised on a structure. The fact that it will be elevated restricts where the local streets of LeBreton Flats can join onto it. Because Booth Street is one of only two trucking routes across the Ottawa River, it needs to be replaced before it can be rebuilt; this is where the extension of Preston Street comes into the plan. Although not officially part of the LRT plan (and not part of its $2.1B budget), Preston Street will be extended between Albert Street and the Ottawa River Parkway. The cross river traffic from Booth Street will be routed onto Preston Street while Booth Street is reconstructed. This means that the new section of Preston will need to be at least four lanes wide plus any auxiliary lanes so that it can handle the traffic from Booth Street. Both the Preston Street and Booth Street structures will be quite large and expensive.


Issues with the ‘new’ plan

The ‘new’ plan, however, runs under Queen Street and enters the tunnel through the portal low on the face of the escarpment. This has not changed the plans for the section of track between Bayview Station and LeBreton Station. There is still the need for the two large roadway structures; thus, all of the problems of the ‘old’ plan have continued with the ‘new’ plan.

In profile, this ‘new’ plan would look roughly like this:


Profile of ‘new’ plan

A new draw-back is created by changing the location of the western portal to the bottom of the escarpment; Commissioner Street and Wellington Street get cut off by the tracks. These streets are the only access to the main physical plant of the Parliamentary Sector buildings. Also, because the track wraps further around the aqueduct before turning under Queen, the second curve, of the reversing curves, is tighter than it would have been with the ‘old’ plan.

So the ‘new’ plan keeps the problems of the ‘old’ plan and adds a couple of new issues.

Bayview Station to the Escarpment – Alternative Design:
An alternative idea is to keep the rail line elevated and not raise Preston Street and Booth Street. The Escarpment is approximately 16 metres tall where the train will be entering the face; this gives lots of room to move the portal up. If, for example, the portal is raised six metres then there would be room under the train to maintain Commissioner and Wellington Streets; but there would still be four metres of overburden covering a six metre diameter tunnel.

Another plus is the reduced work required for the tunnel under the Escarpment Park. The cutting of a 16 metre deep trench through the rock under the park could be reduced to only 10 metres deep if the tunnel entered higher on the cliff face. With a shallower trench, there might be less risk digging (blasting) nearer the cliff edge, permitting a wider radius curve for the tunnel and a faster, smoother ride for the passengers.

If the new rail line were elevated on piers, it might be possible to build much of the line without disrupting the existing Transitway. (The section above the Empress extension would be installed once the Transitway was shut-down for construction of the Bayview Station.) Booth Street would not need to be rebuilt and the extension of Preston Street could be done when it is convenient, as opposed to being required in the near-term. By not widening Booth and Preston Streets, more traffic is not encouraged to travel through the developing neighbourhood of LeBreton Flats. Elevating the rails on piers might also mean that the section between LeBreton Station and the escarpment could be placed closer to the aqueduct and the Fleet Street Pumping Station so that the curves in that area can be wider and gentler.

With an elevated station over Booth Street, a more efficient central-platform design could be used to reduce the initial cost and the on-going operating cost.

The general alignment of the rail line would not change, with the exception of some minor ‘tweaking’ facilitated by elevating the line, but the profile would change to look like the following:


Profile of elevated rail line

So by re-thinking the elevation of this section of the rail line – something that is facilitated by the realignment of the tunnel to start at the escarpment face – the major draw-backs of the ‘new’ plan can be avoided:
• The steep slope from Bayview Station is removed, allowing for a more comfortable ride, reducing operating costs, and allowing for future up-grading to a heavy rail system if needed.
• Booth Street does not need to be replaced and elevated onto a huge, expensive structure.
• Preston Street does not need to be extended with an oversized roadway elevated on an expensive structure so that it can handle the inter-provincial traffic.
• Commissioner and Wellington Streets can remain in place to serve the Federal Government’s Physical Plant.
• And the curves in the line can be made smoother by adjusting the position of the alignment closer to the aqueduct and by curving a shallower path under the Escarpment Park.
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  #4147  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 7:49 PM
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Nice work, Richard.


In other news, Councillor Katherine Hobbs has got Ken Gray's attention for her scheme to cover up the Scott Street Transitway trench once light rail is running, possibly by selling development rights.

Yes, great idea. Let's cover up the relatively quiet, non-polluting light rail trains which will have the effect of screwing up everyone's cell phone coverage while simultaneously making the trip much louder and darker (the limited noise from the wheels of the trains does tend to get amplified in a tunnel). Apparently it's just fine to have open bus sewers for decades, though.

Hobbs could do with looking at a map or doing a site visit once in awhile. She talks of streets dead-ending against the trench, but in truth there is all of one such street along its entire length: Roosevelt, and even it doesn't dead end for pedestrians and cyclists. The reason for this should be plainly obvious: the railway preceded the street grid such that those laying out the street grid took account of the railway. Roosevelt is the exception that proves the rule because it used to be the location of CPR's Westboro Station.

Frankly, I think the residents of Kitchissippi ward can find better things to spend about $75M/km on than covering up a light rail line - buying up a convent, for instance. Financially we'd be better off filling the trench in (a place to dump spoil from all those condos on Richmond-Wellington!) except at a few major road crossings than covering the thing up, and at least then we might have some community-friendly stations.

I also doubt there would be too many takers for these development rights anyway. One can hardly build below-grade parkades where there is a void for a light rail line, so you'd be limited to ground-oriented housing for the most part. The only real potential for the sale of such development rights for buildings like towers is in places where there is adjacent land available for development such that the two plots can be combined and structured parking built in the adjacent land. There are only three sites that fit the bill along the entire corridor: Tunney's Pasture and Westboro Stations, and the area at the north end of Roosevelt and Winston.
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  #4148  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 8:29 PM
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Hobbs could do with looking at a map or doing a site visit once in awhile. She talks of streets dead-ending against the trench, but in truth there is all of one such street along its entire length: Roosevelt, and even it doesn't dead end for pedestrians and cyclists. .
Forward Ave in Mechanicsville is also a dead end for vehicles at the Transitway, and there's also an east-west pathway.
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  #4149  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 8:46 PM
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Nice work, Richard.


In other news, Councillor Katherine Hobbs has got Ken Gray's attention for her scheme to cover up the Scott Street Transitway trench once light rail is running, possibly by selling development rights.

Yes, great idea. Let's cover up the relatively quiet, non-polluting light rail trains which will have the effect of screwing up everyone's cell phone coverage while simultaneously making the trip much louder and darker (the limited noise from the wheels of the trains does tend to get amplified in a tunnel). Apparently it's just fine to have open bus sewers for decades, though.

Hobbs could do with looking at a map or doing a site visit once in awhile. She talks of streets dead-ending against the trench, but in truth there is all of one such street along its entire length: Roosevelt, and even it doesn't dead end for pedestrians and cyclists. The reason for this should be plainly obvious: the railway preceded the street grid such that those laying out the street grid took account of the railway. Roosevelt is the exception that proves the rule because it used to be the location of CPR's Westboro Station.

Frankly, I think the residents of Kitchissippi ward can find better things to spend about $75M/km on than covering up a light rail line - buying up a convent, for instance. Financially we'd be better off filling the trench in (a place to dump spoil from all those condos on Richmond-Wellington!) except at a few major road crossings than covering the thing up, and at least then we might have some community-friendly stations.

I also doubt there would be too many takers for these development rights anyway. One can hardly build below-grade parkades where there is a void for a light rail line, so you'd be limited to ground-oriented housing for the most part. The only real potential for the sale of such development rights for buildings like towers is in places where there is adjacent land available for development such that the two plots can be combined and structured parking built in the adjacent land. There are only three sites that fit the bill along the entire corridor: Tunney's Pasture and Westboro Stations, and the area at the north end of Roosevelt and Winston.
Where are you getting your $75M/km figure? We're talking about a 40 foot wide structure here, and who cares how much it costs if it was all paid for by developers?
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  #4150  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 9:03 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
 
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Nice work, Richard....
Well, thank you. I am not too shocked that you like the idea of elevating the train through this section, since the idea did come from you. I was waiting to see your presentation of this idea, but I wasn't sure you'd have the time so I jumped in.

Last edited by Richard Eade; Jul 29, 2011 at 12:58 AM.
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  #4151  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2011, 9:58 PM
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The thing is, the Booth Street bridge will have to be replaced anyway, and since it comes down a steep slope from Albert, a new bridge will simply make the street a more gentle grade. I like the LRT being at ground level here, as it takes advantage of the natural topography and increases the potential of pedestrian interaction along the aqueduct since the station would also facilitate vertical circulation for pedestrians on Booth. If I had my druthers I would extend the Transitway trench to go under the O-Train tracks, as that is more of the reason behind the need for the LRT to climb.

The higher Booth street bridge is supposed to provide a grade separated pedestrian and cycling corridor along the Aqueduct (and possibly a commercial promenade on the north side), and achieving this with the LRT construction makes a lot of sense. If the LRT is elevated, would it end up retaining the level ped/cycle crossing on a truck route? How high would it have to be to create clearance for trucks on Booth and will it create too much of a vertical separation between the platform level and a future aqueduct promenade?
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  #4152  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:14 AM
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Forward Ave in Mechanicsville is also a dead end for vehicles at the Transitway, and there's also an east-west pathway.
Dang it, missed that one. I'd been along there on a bike and since the east-west pathway is there it skipped my mind that a car couldn't do what I could do.

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Where are you getting your $75M/km figure? We're talking about a 40 foot wide structure here, and who cares how much it costs if it was all paid for by developers?
Back in April 2008 during the TMP update, the consultants produced a document with cost estimates for a wide variety of LRT and BRT corridors, right down to individual elements like bridges and cuts and paving, etc. Included in this was the Southwest Transitway from Baseline to Barrhaven, which calls for a tunnel beneath Woodroffe from Knoxdale to Hunt Club at a cost of $4000/m². Another tunnel section on the West Transitway east of Pinecrest was costed at $6500/m², though I would have thought that this latter, since it would not have a road above it, would be cheaper, not more expensive. On top of all this was about 50% contingencies that were factored into the estimates provided in the document (so it would be $6000/m² and $9750/m², respectively). Anyway, from this bit of confusion I simply took a value of $5000/m², which, given all the other cost inflation which other figures in this document have undergone in the past few years, even with their contingencies, is probably on the conservative side.

The trench is about 15 m wide, so each linear metre of trench is going to cost $75,000 to cover up. That scales up to $75M/km.

There are not going to be too many developers lining up to fork out cash to pay to cover the trench up, and certainly none who are going to do so with enough to effectively cover up two trenches (since Hobbs seems to think that selling development rights over the Scott trench will be enough to cover up the future trench along Byron). There might be some localized covering up at the two stations as part of wider projects, but that's likely to be the end of it.
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  #4153  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:43 AM
MountainView MountainView is offline
 
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New Bus Flags

I also noticed new Bus Flags were being put up today by OC Transpo staff... seems like they are going to go with just the '86' on the flag, and not the 86B and 86C ... I see confusion for riders about to hit. Next route... the 86 Magical Mystery Tour
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  #4154  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 2:11 AM
S-Man S-Man is offline
 
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All aboard for that - it's a trip! ; )
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  #4155  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 3:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kitchissippi View Post
The thing is, the Booth Street bridge will have to be replaced anyway,
It is to be retained as a heritage structure beneath the proposed bridge and to provide a connection across the aqueduct.

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and since it comes down a steep slope from Albert, a new bridge will simply make the street a more gentle grade. I like the LRT being at ground level here, as it takes advantage of the natural topography and increases the potential of pedestrian interaction along the aqueduct since the station would also facilitate vertical circulation for pedestrians on Booth.
My scheme takes advantage of the natural topography as well, just different topography. To the east of Booth the Transitway rises quite quickly up to Empress and Albert. The idea would be for the LRT to be at that level - basically the same level as Albert. If the LRT is built a little to the south of the current Transitway and at the same level as Albert, the area between the LRT and Albert could basically be filled in (or, rather, turned into parkade below whatever development fills in that area). I'm indifferent on centre-vs-side platforms for this scheme since centre would be cheaper and a bit easier to arrange transfers - which should be few anyway since interprovincial ought to be dealt with at Bayview - but in many respects side platforms would make it quite easy for someone to emerge from the "ground" (i.e. Albert Street) level of the development to the south and walk straight into the platform and onto a train, though of course coming home they would have a bit more walking and stair climbing to do.

What I would suggest is that the current Transitway be turned into a local access street - possibly pedestrianized - and that the space beneath the LRT be used for café and storefronts that face across the aqueduct, sort of like in Berlin with their S-Bahn.

So, overall, what you would see from the north looking south is an elevated station (westbound) over a façade of cafés and storefronts with the aqueduct before them, while from the south looking north from the ground level of the developments what you would see is the eastbound platform with the rest of the Lebreton development behind it. From Booth heading north it would look like you were going down into an underpass to pass under the eastbound platform but you'd emerge gateway-like into the rest of the Lebreton development on the north side of the aqueduct. The most difficult part to design would be the sidewalls on Booth between the LRT and Albert but some creative terracing would probably work.

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If I had my druthers I would extend the Transitway trench to go under the O-Train tracks, as that is more of the reason behind the need for the LRT to climb.
Well that would push the Transitway/LRT trench down to river level... the railway tracks (not the Bayview spur and Bayview Station itself) and the bottom of the Transitway trench are within half a metre of each other, so if the train just stayed level coming out of the trench it would cross the tracks at grade. Continuing eastward, that elevation is about the same as the Transitway @ Booth, so that would work except with the shallower tunnel you'd still have to rise to get to the tunnel portal. Oddly enough, the elevation of that tunnel portal is about the same as the grade along Scott Street at Parkdale, Holland, etc., so had we built LRT on the old CPR railbed rather than trenching the Transitway it could have gone straight over what is now the O-Train (which probably wouldn't exist) and held that height right over Booth and enter into a tunnel under downtown Ottawa only having to dip a tiny bit to clear the canal eventually coming out somewhere near the Rideau River at Lees, going over the river and into Hurdman with barely a change in elevation all the way from Tunney's Pasture(!).

Quote:
The higher Booth street bridge is supposed to provide a grade separated pedestrian and cycling corridor along the Aqueduct (and possibly a commercial promenade on the north side), and achieving this with the LRT construction makes a lot of sense. If the LRT is elevated, would it end up retaining the level ped/cycle crossing on a truck route? How high would it have to be to create clearance for trucks on Booth and will it create too much of a vertical separation between the platform level and a future aqueduct promenade?
The clearance would be little different than what is projected for the Booth Street bridge - you'd just reverse them since the theory behind each scheme is essentially the reverse of the same coin: their plan calls for a level Booth Street coming from Albert, mine for an LRT that is level with Albert.

So yes, there would be pedestrian and bicycle crossing of Booth at grade, although there would be the possibility of going over. We're going to have that further north in the rest of the LeBreton development anyway.

Let's not forget that placing the LRT station and the aqueduct side path beneath the 6+ lane wide Booth Street bridge is not exactly going to be a friendly environment, nor will the looming Booth Street Bridge embankment on the north side. To the south there will eventually be development, but at the level of the station it will be a parkade level at Albert so who knows what will actually front against the LRT station. Bear in mind also that with LeBreton Station in the bottom of what is essentially a gully that trains going in both directions will be braking hard as they arrive (especially from the east, but even from the west), and that racket is going to be heard on the north side of the aqueduct with the Booth Street Bridge acting as a giant resonator.

Once you think about extending the elevation of Albert northwards as a "virtual groundfloor" for the LeBreton development south of the aqueduct, putting the LRT above Booth at that same elevation begins to make a lot of sense because it would not look like it was elevated from the perspective of someone walking around that development. It would only look elevated from the perspective of someone on the northside of the aqueduct, but with the backdrop of the development south of it so it would look higher up but without appearing to be on a viaduct.
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  #4156  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 1:09 PM
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gjhall gjhall is offline
 
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Dang it, missed that one. I'd been along there on a bike and since the east-west pathway is there it skipped my mind that a car couldn't do what I could do.



Back in April 2008 during the TMP update, the consultants produced a document with cost estimates for a wide variety of LRT and BRT corridors, right down to individual elements like bridges and cuts and paving, etc. Included in this was the Southwest Transitway from Baseline to Barrhaven, which calls for a tunnel beneath Woodroffe from Knoxdale to Hunt Club at a cost of $4000/m². Another tunnel section on the West Transitway east of Pinecrest was costed at $6500/m², though I would have thought that this latter, since it would not have a road above it, would be cheaper, not more expensive. On top of all this was about 50% contingencies that were factored into the estimates provided in the document (so it would be $6000/m² and $9750/m², respectively). Anyway, from this bit of confusion I simply took a value of $5000/m², which, given all the other cost inflation which other figures in this document have undergone in the past few years, even with their contingencies, is probably on the conservative side.

The trench is about 15 m wide, so each linear metre of trench is going to cost $75,000 to cover up. That scales up to $75M/km.

There are not going to be too many developers lining up to fork out cash to pay to cover the trench up, and certainly none who are going to do so with enough to effectively cover up two trenches (since Hobbs seems to think that selling development rights over the Scott trench will be enough to cover up the future trench along Byron). There might be some localized covering up at the two stations as part of wider projects, but that's likely to be the end of it.
All that would be relevant if she were proposing to tunnel, but instead she's looking at a platform be built over an existing trench, so all those costs for DIGGING wouldn't apply. So I don't think your figure has any bearing here.
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  #4157  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2011, 2:02 PM
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Well your argument would be relevant if those figures actually included the digging. They don't. Those are additional to the costs I listed. These are structure costs only.

The reason this would all cost a minor fortune is because we'd be building what amounts to a continuous bridge spanning 15 m. In other cities when they build cut-and-cover tunnels for rail they basically put in a large double culvert and cover it back up, but since in our wisdom we built a busway first we've got ourselves an oversized trench instead with nothing immediately available to fill it back in. I suppose we could put in a culvert tunnel here and bury it with trucked-in material from the downtown tunnel but that will just delay getting LRT up and running because it would have to be done all at once at the beginning, which also runs against getting it done by others. Based on the cost cited for the Dow's Lake tunnel for the N-S LRT, that would cost about ~$50M/km, exclusive of any trucking of material for back fill.

Hobbs is looking for what amounts to a free lunch and she's not going to find one.
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  #4158  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2011, 12:48 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Originally Posted by MountainView View Post
No, I'm not implying that they do not alert people of the many changes... just seems redundant because their website shows the information and the newspaper and tv news has been covering it as well. But advertising costs are a separate entity so it's not exactly comparable, but to me it seems like a waste of money.
I love the CheckYourRoute polos some of the drivers have been sporting lately! WANT!
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  #4159  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2011, 12:50 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Ding ding!

Also, advertising costs and operating costs are not exactly comparable. Would you really advocate that OC Transpo not alert people to major changes to the routes?
Don't know about average users, but certainly not all users do. Given the scope of the frigups changes, I give OCT full credit for drawing as much attention to the frigups changes as possible.

They should also have "ambassadors" at Rideau Street and some of the major Transitway stations during the first week, for riders to direct questions at... because if they direct them at drivers, the dwell delays are going to be insane.
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  #4160  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2011, 12:56 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
 
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Yes, great idea. Let's cover up the relatively quiet, non-polluting light rail trains which will have the effect of screwing up everyone's cell phone coverage
You know they have cell phones for tunnels now?

Quote:
Frankly, I think the residents of Kitchissippi ward can find better things to spend about $75M/km on than covering up a light rail line
I don't think the residents of Bitchissippi ward (or any other ward) should be spending $75/km covering up the trench, or for that matter, 75 cents/km.

But if there are opportunities for private developers to build right on top of the trench, then build, baby, build.

Quote:
I also doubt there would be too many takers for these development rights anyway.
Maybe not. But maybe. Maybe there are builders with some imagination, and maybe the city would get over the idiotic idea that every single built use has to come with the presribed number of parking spaces.
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