Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Oh God, CBC commenter and Glebe cheerleader 'Michele K' needs to go back to her university feminist march (Slutwalk?) and shut up with her stupid comments. Every day it's: Landsdowne = police state, this about the city acting in 'OUR' interests, etc, etc, etc....

Apparently she's disgusted with her tax dollars being spent on something she doesn't like, but has no qualms with spending everyone else's tax dollars on legal fees and cancellation penalties with nothing in the physical world to show for the expenditure. And she talks about 'We' and 'Our' to make herself sound like less of a selfish narcissist and more like a revolutionary, romantic hero.

I alwas get a kick out of these anti sports people that say that they don't want there money going to sports etc but are the same sort of people that want more and more money going to the arts.

[S-Man]

I'm all for both, because different people need different entertainment. But so often it turns into divisive battle between two cultures that inevitably throws politics, pay scale and education into the mix. There are those on each side who don't want to see a cent spent on the other.

the Lansdowne is less about sports per say, and more about peace and quiet, empty streets, and the 'quality of life' of the people trying to stop the project. They'll say it's about proper procedure, etc, democracy, etc, but it's just a group of people who have grown used to no one ever going to Lansdowne while their houses appreciate rapidly, and they want to keep it that way.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

The bad news in this news item is that the city is resigned to not getting anything done about the stadium this fall or winter. Not even demolishing the south side stands.

Coliseum Inc should talk to uOttawa bout a new site for their dome next year. uOttawa has considered putting a Field Turf field and a dome on their Lees Av campus in a year or so. A deal might be struck where both Coliseum Inc and uOttawa could receive revenues, plus uOttawa gets a winter training facility for soccer and football,

Soccer, football dome to stay at Lansdowne Park for another year


By Jon Willing,Ottawa Sun

First posted: Friday, July 22, 2011 6:56:57 EDT PM



Delayed reconstruction of Lansdowne Park is good news for hundreds of local athletes.



The dome that covers the turf at Frank Clair Stadium each winter will unexpectedly return later this year.

The Ottawa Sports and Social Club (OSSC) had been scoping out alternative venues for its recreation leagues until it received word a couple weeks ago the dome will return to Lansdowne Park next winter.

“We’re ecstatic they’re there for one more season,” club general manager Lael Morgan said Friday.

Nearly 1,000 people participate in soccer, ultimate and flag football leagues run by the club out of the dome.

Morgan said all the club’s turf leagues will be played at the dome during the cold months.

“Obviously it’s a premier location for us,” Morgan said.

Lansdowne’s reconstruction was originally planned to begin around now but legal challenges and unresolved heritage issues have pushed back the schedule.

Coliseum Inc., the company that owns and operates the dome, leases the stadium field from the city.

At last check the lease ends in May 2015.

There has been a big question mark over the future of the dome ever since city council in June 2010 agreed to forge ahead with a massive redevelopment of the historic municipal property.

Where the dome will go in the long term is still up in the air.

It hasn’t been part of the redevelopment plans at Lansdowne and the city and Coliseum have been negotiating to find a new suitable location.

Officials with Coliseum couldn’t be reached for comment Friday.

A city spokesman confirmed Coliseum will be running the dome at Lansdowne for the 2011-2012 indoor sports season, but he had no update on the negotiations for the long-term plan.

Earlier this year, Coliseum partner Marty Lauter told the Sun the company was in limbo after the city served it with a one-year notice of least termination last November, as well as an option to lease another site for the remainder of the agreement.

The two sides were having trouble finding a suitable alternate venue. The city has set aside $3.8 million for the dome’s relocation.

OSSC is just one of Coliseum’s clients in the winter. The dome sees up to 7,500 people each week.

Morgan said the OSSC hasn’t looked ahead yet beyond the next indoor season.

“That’s a whole other story,” she said.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

The bad news in this news item is that the city is resigned to not getting anything done about the stadium this fall or winter. Not even demolishing the south side stands.

Coliseum Inc should talk to uOttawa bout a new site for their dome next year. uOttawa has considered putting a Field Turf field and a dome on their Lees Av campus in a year or so. A deal might be struck where both Coliseum Inc and uOttawa could receive revenues, plus uOttawa gets a winter training facility for soccer and football,

Don't know if the U of O Lees Ave campus would be big enough for both a sports field and parking. Also, their sports facilities are already centered in the Mann Ave-King Edward Ave area. It's been like that ever since the old Oval Stadium was situated on Nicholas near Somerset St (Seraphin Marion).
If it can, then a dome at Lees Ave would be a win-win venture for both it and Coliseum Inc.
Ottawa.ca site describes the Coliseum Inc setup as a public-private partnership. Do the summertime soccer teams pay rent to Coliseum Inc or to the City of Ottawa?

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Don't know if the U of O Lees Ave campus would be big enough for both a sports field and parking. Also, their sports facilities are already centered in the Mann Ave-King Edward Ave area.

The Lees Av campus (19.5 acres) is almost exactly half the size of Lansdowne Park and look at all that Lansdowne holds-or will hold. Much of Lees Av is being used for parking by the uni now. The old Algonquin buildings will eventually come down. Engineering studies have determined that they are structurally decrepit and not worth spending money on. The current plan is to use them as swing space until the end of 2012, or until the new Vanier Hall and other campus renos are complete. Then they will be put out of commission for good.

Only half the unis sports facilities are centered at Mann and King Edward. The older Montpetit Hall is in the center of the campus and holds the Olympic size swimming pool , the courts for varsity Basketball and Volleyball plus several other sports and office uses.

Lees Av is not far away. This old guy can walk from the Mann Ave sport complex to the entrance of Lees Av in seven minutes. I have done it. A little less time than it takes me to walk from Mann to Tabaret Hall.

Parking will never be a priority at uOttawa. as the population grows the amount of parking has shrunken. The future is that students from outside Sandy Hill will be expected to use public transit. That is why Alan Rock and his admin lobbied for the uni-pass as a step in the transit university vision. Yes if Coliseum Inc was to put a dome there , they would have to keep some parking for the paying customers.

The current sport and recreation facilities were built to handle a student population of 25,000 maximum. The student pop is now 36,000+. The sport facilities are under great stress. uOttawa has fallen behind most other unis that they compete with as far as the sort of recreational facilities they can offer students.

The university of course knows this and wants to build more facilities.
Land in the downtown campus is almost impossible to find. Other departments also want more land. uOttawa will soon have to decide what to use Lees Av for--Athletic and recreational facilities, or academic, or a mixture. If approved, the Field Turf I mentioned will be a toe hold for athletic use of the site.

The back of the Lees campus has a stretch along the Rideau River. A few brave souls have a vision of building a great boat house there and developing a rowing club that can compete with the best university clubs in the world.

I do take great interest in this issue and keep in touch with some people at the university concerning this issue. This should probably have its own thread and be an ongoing discussion.

Then there is the Nicholas-Mann Gateway Precinct issue , which is related as it is the buffer between the main campus and Lees, and which I started a thread some time ago on this forum. A corner of the Lees campus borders on the back of St . Paul University, an affiliate of uOttawa. One day you could conceivably have a campus that stretches unbroken from almost Rideau Street to Main Street in old Ottawa East--if the Precinct and Lees Av campus were both developed by the university. One pretty well has to walk all these lands to get a feel of how this can be done.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by LeadingEdgeBoomer

The Lees Av campus (19.5 acres) is almost exactly half the size of Lansdowne Park and look at all that Lansdowne holds-or will hold. Much of Lees Av is being used for parking by the uni now. The old Algonquin buildings will eventually come down. Engineering studies have determined that they are structurally decrepit and not worth spending money on. The current plan is to use them as swing space until the end of 2012, or until the new Vanier Hall and other campus renos are complete. Then they will be put out of commission for good.

Only half the unis sports facilities are centered at Mann and King Edward. The older Montpetit Hall is in the center of the campus and holds the Olympic size swimming pool , the courts for varsity Basketball and Volleyball plus several other sports and office uses.

Lees Av is not far away. This old guy can walk from the Mann Ave sport complex to the entrance of Lees Av in seven minutes. I have done it. A little less time than it takes me to walk from Mann to Tabaret Hall.

Parking will never be a priority at uOttawa. as the population grows the amount of parking has shrunken. The future is that students from outside Sandy Hill will be expected to use public transit. That is why Alan Rock and his admin lobbied for the uni-pass as a step in the transit university vision. Yes if Coliseum Inc was to put a dome there , they would have to keep some parking for the paying customers.

The current sport and recreation facilities were built to handle a student population of 25,000 maximum. The student pop is now 36,000+. The sport facilities are under great stress. uOttawa has fallen behind most other unis that they compete with as far as the sort of recreational facilities they can offer students.

The university of course knows this and wants to build more facilities.
Land in the downtown campus is almost impossible to find. Other departments also want more land. uOttawa will soon have to decide what to use Lees Av for--Athletic and recreational facilities, or academic, or a mixture. If approved, the Field Turf I mentioned will be a toe hold for athletic use of the site.

The back of the Lees campus has a stretch along the Rideau River. A few brave souls have a vision of building a great boat house there and developing a rowing club that can compete with the best university clubs in the world.

I do take great interest in this issue and keep in touch with some people at the university concerning this issue. This should probably have its own thread and be an ongoing discussion.

Then there is the Nicholas-Mann Gateway Precinct issue , which is related as it is the buffer between the main campus and Lees, and which I started a thread some time ago on this forum. A corner of the Lees campus borders on the back of St . Paul University, an affiliate of uOttawa. One day you could conceivably have a campus that stretches unbroken from almost Rideau Street to Main Street in old Ottawa East--if the Precinct and Lees Av campus were both developed by the university. One pretty well has to walk all these lands to get a feel of how this can be done.

Thank you very much.
This is very very informative and with the proposed new developments at the Deschaletets site in Ottawa East and the U of O intentions with the old Algonquin College site, this may certainly merit a thread of its own. Sandy Hill, the Canal, U of O and Ottawa East are probably due for major development in the next 20 years. Just looking at the U of O buildings being erected along the Canal makes the Richmond Rd building heights quandaries rather much smaller in scale.
U of O is expanding in scale, scope and value. To have the Dome at the Lees Ave campus instead of Lansdowne Park or elsewhere is good public interest planning.

What happens if the Lansdowne Live’s (aka Lansdowne Partnership Plan) intentions falls apart because of the impeding Superior Court hearing? Will the Frank Clair Stadium be fixed up or will the City keep on let it rot till it crumbles like a Mayan temple? It’s rather sad and shameful that the Ottawa Fury soccer team have to play at the Terry Fox field meant for high school and public school sports instead of in front of a 10,000 seating stadium at a City of Ottawa municipal sports field that has existed for over 100 years? Our great-grandfathers were watching football, soccer, lacrosse, horse races, foot races, snowshoe races and skating races there when Queen Victoria was still alive.
The City owns the stadium and the grounds, why can’t it start fixing it up tomorrow?
I would certainly enjoy seeing the Women’s’ FIFA games there in 2014. That’s two years from next summer. What’s the holdup?

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Thank you very much.
This is very very informative and with the proposed new developments at the Deschaletets site in Ottawa East and the U of O intentions with the old Algonquin College site, this may certainly merit a thread of its own. Sandy Hill, the Canal, U of O and Ottawa East are probably due for major development in the next 20 years. Just looking at the U of O buildings being erected along the Canal makes the Richmond Rd building heights quandaries rather much smaller in scale.
U of O is expanding in scale, scope and value. To have the Dome at the Lees Ave campus instead of Lansdowne Park or elsewhere is good public interest planning.

What happens if the Lansdowne Live’s (aka Lansdowne Partnership Plan) intentions falls apart because of the impeding Superior Court hearing? Will the Frank Clair Stadium be fixed up or will the City keep on let it rot till it crumbles like a Mayan temple? It’s rather sad and shameful that the Ottawa Fury soccer team have to play at the Terry Fox field meant for high school and public school sports instead of in front of a 10,000 seating stadium at a City of Ottawa municipal sports field that has existed for over 100 years? Our great-grandfathers were watching football, soccer, lacrosse, horse races, foot races, snowshoe races and skating races there when Queen Victoria was still alive.
The City owns the stadium and the grounds, why can’t it start fixing it up tomorrow?
I would certainly enjoy seeing the Women’s’ FIFA games there in 2014. That’s two years from next summer. What’s the holdup?

If the deal falls apart i think that will be the end of landsdown as we know it as there likely will be even a bigger push to turn it into a park and that is what i think will happen is they will get there way.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

The back of the Lees campus has a stretch along the Rideau River. A few brave souls have a vision of building a great boat house there and developing a rowing club that can compete with the best university clubs in the world

Yesterday, the Canadian women's eight won the U23 world rowing championship.

Two of the crew--Kate Goodfellow and Cristy Nurse --are members of the uOttawa rowing team, which is a competitive club rather than a varsity sport at uOttawa.Congrats to them and the whole crew on a world gold medal.

If the deal falls apart i think that will be the end of landsdown as we know it as there likely will be even a bigger push to turn it into a park and that is what i think will happen is they will get there way

.

maybe--but it will take the city another ten years to even decide to turn it into a park. In the meantine they will let it rot,as they have over the last couple of decades.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Thank you very much.
What happens if the Lansdowne Live’s (aka Lansdowne Partnership Plan) intentions falls apart because of the impeding Superior Court hearing? Will the Frank Clair Stadium be fixed up or will the City keep on let it rot till it crumbles like a Mayan temple? It’s rather sad and shameful that the Ottawa Fury soccer team have to play at the Terry Fox field meant for high school and public school sports instead of in front of a 10,000 seating stadium at a City of Ottawa municipal sports field that has existed for over 100 years? Our great-grandfathers were watching football, soccer, lacrosse, horse races, foot races, snowshoe races and skating races there when Queen Victoria was still alive.
The City owns the stadium and the grounds, why can’t it start fixing it up tomorrow?
I would certainly enjoy seeing the Women’s’ FIFA games there in 2014. That’s two years from next summer. What’s the holdup?

The Fury play at Algonquin. It is Capital City FC that plays at Terry Fox. And neither of those teams ever draws anywere near 10,000 fans, so it would make no sense for them to play at Lansdowne. Although a multi-use facility, Terry Fox is actually quite appropriate for Capital City, as it seats about 2000 (double the number of fans that have been there at any game I've attended), and it has an adjacent training field that is used by the team.

If you want to see women's games in Ottawa in 2014, then you better get behind the OSEG proposal. The City is not going to fix the stadium up because history has made it very clear that approach does not work. The City is a disinterested manager that cannot invest enough to keep the facility up to date, and it results in the long, slow decline that we have all witnessed. That is why the City decided on a model in which the key tenants manage and maintain the facility. The City should not and will not start fixing the stadium up in the way you suggest because it will fail. And in any event, even if Council did an about face now, it simply does not have enough time to be ready for 2014.

Make no mistake, if the current plan falls through, we'll be watching the Women's World Cup on television from other Canadian cities that were able to get their act together.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by phil235

Make no mistake, if the current plan falls through, we'll be watching the Women's World Cup on television from other Canadian cities that were able to get their act together.

And Glebites will rejoice at watching it on tv in another city rather than in their neighbourhood.

[citizen j]

Eight words:
Football hooligan serial flash mobs in the Glebe.
Don't underestimate the extremity of the anger a successful FOL lawsuit will provoke or the power of that angry demographic to mobilize.

Street game on Clemow -- free parking on front lawns.

[KHOOLE]

Originally Posted by phil235

The Fury play at Algonquin. It is Capital City FC that plays at Terry Fox. And neither of those teams ever draws anywere near 10,000 fans, so it would make no sense for them to play at Lansdowne. Although a multi-use facility, Terry Fox is actually quite appropriate for Capital City, as it seats about 2000 (double the number of fans that have been there at any game I've attended), and it has an adjacent training field that is used by the team.

If you want to see women's games in Ottawa in 2014, then you better get behind the OSEG proposal. The City is not going to fix the stadium up because history has made it very clear that approach does not work. The City is a disinterested manager that cannot invest enough to keep the facility up to date, and it results in the long, slow decline that we have all witnessed. That is why the City decided on a model in which the key tenants manage and maintain the facility. The City should not and will not start fixing the stadium up in the way you suggest because it will fail. And in any event, even if Council did an about face now, it simply does not have enough time to be ready for 2014.

Make no mistake, if the current plan falls through, we'll be watching the Women's World Cup on television from other Canadian cities that were able to get their act together.

I don’t believe this. It’s BS.
Instead of having 700 spectators at Algonquin College, the Women’s Fury could have had four or five times as many spectators at Lansdowne Park if the municipal stadium would have been kept up to shape.
The Women Fury is going to Seattle next week for the pan-American finals. Those finals could have been held in Ottawa! We have the athletes, we have the fans and we have the facilities. What’s wrong with Ottawa sports fans? Does it really have to do with high ranking and expensive commercial enterprises?
Just like every one else, I enjoy sports. I usually check out the sports page before the front page of a newspaper because that’s where the real truth is to be found. The scores are real. A team winning or losing is real.
Never mind Tiger Woods extramarital trysts and Harper’s political manipulations on the Hill, reality and no-BS has to do with who won and who lost.
So, tell the elected municipal representatives that taxpayer’s money should go to maintaining the municipal stadium and grounds that have been around for over 100 years to provide entertainment to Ottawans and a remunerative venue for Ottawa sports teams.
I would very much like to re-become an Ottawa CFL sports fan. However, for this to happen, give me an adequate stadium provided with appropriate non-automobile access surrounded with amenities such as bars, restaurants and hotels where happy times can happen. Anyone can have a great time in downtown Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.
Lansdowne Park, which was great a half-century ago, is now a very dumb and stupid location for 21st Century CFL.
CFL today at Lansdowne Park is a loser proposition. The OSEG guys probably don’t give a shit because their aim is land development and not CFL anyway.
Back in 2006, Jeff Hunt was thinking CFL. And maybe was Ruddy. However with Shenkman and Greenberg in the picture, the optic changed from a sports venture to a commercial profit-oriented land development.
That’s why the whole shebang ended up at the Ontario Superior Court and we are all waiting for the judge’s decision.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

I don’t believe this. It’s BS.
Instead of having 700 spectators at Algonquin College, the Women’s Fury could have had four or five times as many spectators at Lansdowne Park if the municipal stadium would have been kept up to shape.
The Women Fury is going to Seattle next week for the pan-American finals. Those finals could have been held in Ottawa! We have the athletes, we have the fans and we have the facilities. What’s wrong with Ottawa sports fans? Does it really have to do with high ranking and expensive commercial enterprises?
Just like every one else, I enjoy sports. I usually check out the sports page before the front page of a newspaper because that’s where the real truth is to be found. The scores are real. A team winning or losing is real.
Never mind Tiger Woods extramarital trysts and Harper’s political manipulations on the Hill, reality and no-BS has to do with who won and who lost.
So, tell the elected municipal representatives that taxpayer’s money should go to maintaining the municipal stadium and grounds that have been around for over 100 years to provide entertainment to Ottawans and a remunerative venue for Ottawa sports teams.
I would very much like to re-become an Ottawa CFL sports fan. However, for this to happen, give me an adequate stadium provided with appropriate non-automobile access surrounded with amenities such as bars, restaurants and hotels where happy times can happen. Anyone can have a great time in downtown Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.
Lansdowne Park, which was great a half-century ago, is now a very dumb and stupid location for 21st Century CFL.
CFL today at Lansdowne Park is a loser proposition. The OSEG guys probably don’t give a shit because their aim is land development and not CFL anyway.
Back in 2006, Jeff Hunt was thinking CFL. And maybe was Ruddy. However with Shenkman and Greenberg in the picture, the optic changed from a sports venture to a commercial profit-oriented land development.
That’s why the whole shebang ended up at the Ontario Superior Court and we are all waiting for the judge’s decision.

My memory of the history of OSEG is that it was Ruddy, Shenkman and Greenberg that recruited Jeff Hunt. Jeff Hunt did not have the finances to purchase a CFL franchise so you can speculate all you want, but without finances nothing would have happened. Furthermore, the original intent was simply to bring back CFL football to Lansdowne Park. When it became apparent that the stadium was no longer useable, and the city could not afford to replace the stadium on its own (and it was not politically acceptable to spend money on it anyways), this is how the commercial aspect came into being. I don't know how you avoid it.

This was not about money grubbing profiteers. This was about getting the job done. We may have ended up with a court case or two based on the current plan, but if the city had paid for the stadium itself in its entirety, can you imagine all the ranting and raving about tax funded support of professional sports.

It is really tiresome to hear revisionist history. What OSEG is presenting is THE opportunity to bring the CFL and professional soccer to Ottawa, to build a substantially renovated stadium, and to fix the mess at Lansdowne Park. No other proposal could accomplish more. The Ottawa Rough Riders were without adequately funded and competent ownership since the Loebs walked away in the 1980s. Nobody else with adequate financial backing has come to the table since then until OSEG expressed their initial interest. No matter what you say, without a lot of money, nobody is going to bring back CFL football to Ottawa. Nobody is going to fund a suitable stadium. Nobody is going to fix Lansdowne Park. This is our one and only chance.

However, for this to happen, give me an adequate stadium provided with appropriate non-automobile access surrounded with amenities such as bars, restaurants and hotels where happy times can happen.

If we build a new stadium at Bayview or Kanata or Carleton or Hurdman, you may get non-automobile access for three of them, but you will not get the other amenities that you describe. Scotiabank Place has been present for more than 15 years and it is stills a pedestrian unfriendly environment with no bars, restaurants and hotels within walking distance other than the ones that are within the building itself. These amenities will never be created based on a stadium alone, which is empty most of the time. There must be pre-existing conditions for successful commercial enterprise. Bank Street meets those conditions. None of the others do.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

I don’t believe this. It’s BS.
Instead of having 700 spectators at Algonquin College, the Women’s Fury could have had four or five times as many spectators at Lansdowne Park if the municipal stadium would have been kept up to shape.
The Women Fury is going to Seattle next week for the pan-American finals. Those finals could have been held in Ottawa! We have the athletes, we have the fans and we have the facilities. What’s wrong with Ottawa sports fans? Does it really have to do with high ranking and expensive commercial enterprises?
Just like every one else, I enjoy sports. I usually check out the sports page before the front page of a newspaper because that’s where the real truth is to be found. The scores are real. A team winning or losing is real.
Never mind Tiger Woods extramarital trysts and Harper’s political manipulations on the Hill, reality and no-BS has to do with who won and who lost.
So, tell the elected municipal representatives that taxpayer’s money should go to maintaining the municipal stadium and grounds that have been around for over 100 years to provide entertainment to Ottawans and a remunerative venue for Ottawa sports teams.
I would very much like to re-become an Ottawa CFL sports fan. However, for this to happen, give me an adequate stadium provided with appropriate non-automobile access surrounded with amenities such as bars, restaurants and hotels where happy times can happen. Anyone can have a great time in downtown Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver.
Lansdowne Park, which was great a half-century ago, is now a very dumb and stupid location for 21st Century CFL.
CFL today at Lansdowne Park is a loser proposition. The OSEG guys probably don’t give a shit because their aim is land development and not CFL anyway.
Back in 2006, Jeff Hunt was thinking CFL. And maybe was Ruddy. However with Shenkman and Greenberg in the picture, the optic changed from a sports venture to a commercial profit-oriented land development.
That’s why the whole shebang ended up at the Ontario Superior Court and we are all waiting for the judge’s decision.

KHOOLE, don't you think that calling my opinion "BS" is a bit strong? At least I attempt to base what I am saying on facts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears pretty clear that you are not a regular attendee at soccer in Ottawa, judging from the basic errors that you make in your posts. And yet this debate seems to be full of people who do not even go to games who have very strong opinions on how soccer will work in Ottawa.

Going back to your post, even if the Fury quadruple their attendance, that is 3000 or 3500 fans. Why on earth would the team want to play in a 20,000 seat stadium? They certainly didn't 5 years ago when Lansdowne was functioning as a stadium, which provides a pretty good indicator of what they think of the idea. Have you ever been in a 20,000 seat stadium with 3000 people? The ambiance is terrible. The lack of an appropriately-sized facility is one factor that can drive teams out of business.

As for your comments on the real motivations of the OSEG guys, I don't think that really warrants an answer. I'll just say that they are the only group that has produced anything resembling a workable plan for bringing these major sports to Ottawa. For all those who purport to know better based on limited to no experience in running a sports team (or even watching a sports team in a lot of cases), I think the appropriate phrase is "talk is cheap".

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by phil235

KHOOLE, don't you think that calling my opinion "BS" is a bit strong? At least I attempt to base what I am saying on facts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears pretty clear that you have not a regular attendee at soccer in Ottawa, judging from the basic errors that you make in your posts. And yet this debate seems to be full of people who do not even go to games who have very strong opinions on how soccer will work in Ottawa.

Going back to your post, even if the Fury quadruple their attendance, that is 3000 or 3500 fans. Why on earth would the team want to play in a 20,000 seat stadium? They certainly didn't 5 years ago when Lansdowne was functioning as a stadium, which provides a pretty good indicator of what they think of the idea. Have you ever been in a 20,000 seat stadium with 3000 people? The ambiance is terrible. The lack of an appropriately-sized facility is one factor that can drive teams out of business.

As for your comments on the real motivations of the OSEG guys, I don't think that really warrants an answer. I'll just say that they are the only group that has produced anything resembling a workable plan for bringing these major sports to Ottawa. For all those who purport to know better based on limited to no experience in running a sports team, I think the appropriate phrase is "talk is cheap".

You can't put to much into attendance at the csl and pdl level and assume it will be bad support for pro soccer.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by reidjr

You can't put to much into attendance at the csl and pdl level and assume it will be bad support for pro soccer.

Dude, that isn't what I'm saying at all. I am suggesting that teams in those leagues don't need or want a 20,000 seat stadium. No team wants to play in a stadium that is 80% empty all of the time.

In fact, you are not likely to need all 20,000 seats for NASL either, though you are getting closer. Montreal is by far the best-attended team in that league, and they draw 12,000 per game. If things go as well or better here than in Mtl, which would be great though unlikely, then Lansdowne will be a good venue. But it would be ridiculous to renovate a stadium of that size for either the Fury or Capital City FC as is being suggested.

I will say that I have been pleasantly surprised at what the Fat Cats have done in their too-big stadium. But long term, I would see them only as a place holder until Ottawa can get an AA or AAA team that can make full use of the facility.

[KHOOLE]

[QUOTE=lrt's friend;5359179]My memory of the history of OSEG is that it was Ruddy, Shenkman and Greenberg that recruited Jeff Hunt. Jeff Hunt did not have the finances to purchase a CFL franchise so you can speculate all you want, but without finances nothing would have happened. Furthermore, the original intent was simply to bring back CFL football to Lansdowne Park. When it became apparent that the stadium was no longer useable, and the city could not afford to replace the stadium on its own (and it was not politically acceptable to spend money on it anyways), this is how the commercial aspect came into being. I don't know how you avoid it.

This was not about money grubbing profiteers. This was about getting the job done. We may have ended up with a court case or two based on the current plan, but if the city had paid for the stadium itself in its entirety, can you imagine all the ranting and raving about tax funded support of professional sports.

In October 2006, Jeff Hunt had partnered with Ernest Anderson of Golden Gate Capital to procure the Renegades’ franchise (Ottawa Sun). Anderson reneged for health reasons. In November 2006, Howard Sokolowski, co-owner of the Toronto Argonauts, was asked by the CFL to find someone interested in the Renegades’ franchise (Toronto Star). He met with John Ruddy and suggested that Jeff Hunt be contacted. All three met afterwards (April 2007?) (Jeff Hunt to Maria Cook, Designing Ottawa blog, 2009, Ottawa Citizen) and then John Ruddy flew to Monaco to talk to Bill Shenkman. Afterwards, Jeff Hunt and John Ruddy met with Roger Greenberg (Maria Cook). Jeff Hunt was a go-between guy and he met with Larry O’Brien (Maria Cook).
It is assumed that, in 2007, Mayor Larry O’Brien met with many representatives of the group to be later known as OSEG. At the Ontario Superior Court hearing in June 2011, the city lawyer Doody stated that no electronic correspondence nor any notes and minutes are available for that time period because of a city policy to delete all electronic correspondence older than 90 days.
According to Roger Greenberg, the original intention was to merely rent the stadium from the city if the city was willing to fix it up (The Three Amigos, article in the Citizen, Fall 2009) and that it was O’Brien’s idea to have commercial and residential buildings built for new property taxes to help pay for the stadium renovations.


If we build a new stadium at Bayview or Kanata or Carleton or Hurdman, you may get non-automobile access for three of them, but you will not get the other amenities that you describe. Scotiabank Place has been present for more than 15 years and it is stills a pedestrian unfriendly environment with no bars, restaurants and hotels within walking distance other than the ones that are within the building itself. These amenities will never be created based on a stadium alone, which is empty most of the time. There must be pre-existing conditions for successful commercial enterprise. Bank Street meets those conditions. None of the others do.
Yesterday 12:40 AM
It is really tiresome to hear revisionist history. What OSEG is presenting is THE opportunity to bring the CFL and professional soccer to Ottawa, to build a substantially renovated stadium, and to fix the mess at Lansdowne Park. No other proposal could accomplish more. The Ottawa Rough Riders were without adequately funded and competent ownership since the Loebs walked away in the 1980s. Nobody else with adequate financial backing has come to the table since then until OSEG expressed their initial interest. No matter what you say, without a lot of money, nobody is going to bring back CFL football to Ottawa. Nobody is going to fund a suitable stadium. Nobody is going to fix Lansdowne Park. This is our one and only chance.



Bayview is within a few minutes walking distance from Little Italy, Chinatown, Westboro, Hintonburg, all the Uptown hotels and possibly, some day, from the Gatineau-Prince of Wales’s bridge connection at the Bayview station. . The City Centre monstrosity and many vacant lots, city vehicles parking lots, the old City Water Works, NCC vehicles storage, the snow dump and all kinds of undeveloped properties on each side of the O-train.
Domicile and Mastercraft seem to know where the wind blows and SOHO Champagne is proof of it. A poorly drained and contaminated backwater clay land alongside a flooded gully formerly used as a military and then a commercial canal that is poorly accessible by car or public transit is not something that Bill Shenkman and Roger Greenberg probably knew well about four years ago.
There are much better places than Lansdowne Park for a world class football stadium close to restaurants, hotels and bars as well as commercial and residential tall buildings and be also accessible to 21st century public transit that even leads to an airport.
Lansdowne Park is still good for amateur and commercial sports of a lower scale than CFL. Perfect for Capital City and Fury and FIFA-W and university football and many many other exhibition sports and gatherings.
Let’s put the stadium back in shape and make full use of it as well as it being a revenue-generating enterprise for the city. Adjelian did the studies years ago. The roof is leaking and the supports have to be reinforced (clay again?)

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Thanks for the well documented sequence of events. Always has more relevance when one can point to a reference .

According to Roger Greenberg, the original intention was to merely rent the stadium from the city if the city was willing to fix it up (The Three Amigos, article in the Citizen, Fall 2009) and that it was O’Brien’s idea to have commercial and residential buildings built for new property taxes to help pay for the stadium renovations.

I found this part interesting. Many of the detractors of OSEG have charged that the deal is just a ploy by developers to get some public land for their profit. This would indicate that it was not their intention at all. Bringing more pro sport to Ottawa was their intention. The commercial aspect originated with the city.
The only question is did the mayor tell city staff the way it should be done, or did city staff suggest this approach to the mayor first. Without the deleted correspondence, we probably never will have a clear answer to that question.

City council had the chance to get behind the Melnyck stadium proposal. They voted not to. Some councilors said that their focus was getting all of Lansdowne redeveloped.Not just the stadium. It had to be done. They did not want to get involved in the expense of refurbishing Lansdowne and supporting a stadium project elsewhere at the same time.

If the LPP fails in the court, we will have wasted five years and quite a bit of money bringing the LPP this far. The Lansdowne process will start all over again with the same haggling we have had these last few years. It will take several more years to come to a decision. One can argue that it should not, but history would indicate that it will.
In the meantime the city will not get behind any proposal to build a stadium elsewhere for the same reason they did not give the Melnyck proposal much attention, Lansdowne first. This senior citizen doubts that he will see a 20,000+ seat stadium built some place other than Lansdowne in his life time.

So while I never believed the LPP was perfect, I never have lived in a perfect world. I want to see the LPP go ahead to completion as it currently stands.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by KHOOLE

Bayview is within a few minutes walking distance from Little Italy, Chinatown, Westboro, Hintonburg, all the Uptown hotels and possibly, some day, from the Gatineau-Prince of Wales’s bridge connection at the Bayview station. . The City Centre monstrosity and many vacant lots, city vehicles parking lots, the old City Water Works, NCC vehicles storage, the snow dump and all kinds of undeveloped properties on each side of the O-train.
Domicile and Mastercraft seem to know where the wind blows and SOHO Champagne is proof of it. A poorly drained and contaminated backwater clay land alongside a flooded gully formerly used as a military and then a commercial canal that is poorly accessible by car or public transit is not something that Bill Shenkman and Roger Greenberg probably knew well about four years ago. There are much better places than Lansdowne Park for a world class football stadium close to restaurants, hotels and bars as well as commercial and residential tall buildings and be also accessible to 21st century public transit that even leads to an airport.
Lansdowne Park is still good for amateur and commercial sports of a lower scale than CFL. Perfect for Capital City and Fury and FIFA-W and university football and many many other exhibition sports and gatherings.
Let’s put the stadium back in shape and make full use of it as well as it being a revenue-generating enterprise for the city. Adjelian did the studies years ago. The roof is leaking and the supports have to be reinforced (clay again?)

Do we really need to resort to ridiculous exaggerations?

First, the city cannot afford to build a stadium on its own let alone a stadium at a different location and a refurbishment of Lansdowne Park. We need to understand the restrictions of the city budget and to set reasonable priorities. The city wants to accomplish many other things and if we spend too much money on this project then there is less to further build out our LRT plan or build a new central library or fix our sewers so that our beaches are not always closed during the summer.

Second, Bayview is only within reasonably close walking distance of Wellington West and even then, you have to walk through a residential neighbourhood to get there. As it stands, Bayview is not a pedestrian friendly location and it is certainly not within walking distance of Uptown hotels. It is also quite the hike to Chinatown and Little Italy which are east and south of the Preston and Somerset intersection, with the centre of those communities being blocks further away. Our transit plan does not call for direct transit service to the airport for a long, long time. I realize that we have it now but that will be eliminated with our LRT plan.

As we have seen, the redevelopment of this area has taken almost 50 years with very little positive to show for it. In fact, as you have suggested, the area in many respects has deteriorated with the 1960s City Centre building being a monstrosity. I don't see a stadium as being the best way to stimulate redevelopment of the area with all the traffic and noise produced by events. Who wants to live next to a stadium? Isn't that really why there is all the resistance to fixing Lansdowne Park? It is also not the best way to stimulate commercial and retail development in the area as a stadium is vacant most of the time. Really, significant retail development is probably a lost cause ever since Lebreton Flats was razed and Wellington Street disconnected from downtown.

We can all wonder about the possibilities of a Bayview stadium but really who is realistically going to finance it and there is really no selling point beyond that it is a transit hub. For a central location, it is surprisingly desolate and remote.

[S-Man]

So while I never believed the LPP was perfect, I never have lived in a perfect world. I want to see the LPP go ahead to completion as it currently stands.

Well said, and I think that sums up the sentiment of a majority of residents.

Much like LRT or any other large 'city-building' project, opponents who complain about wastes of money and unaffordability somehow think that five (wasted) years of expensive studies followed by millions of dollars in fines and cancellation fees is 'revenue neutral' and doesn't represent a blow to the city or its taxpayers in any way.
That always gets me.