HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #4121  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2011, 2:53 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 12,806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Umm, no. Thirty-year climate normal annual snowfall:

OTTAWA MACDONALD-CARTIER INT'L A: 235.7
OTTAWA CDA: 202.7

TORONTO MET RES STN: 133.4
TORONTO SUNNYBROOK: 131.1
TORONTO MALVERN: 120.1
TORONTO LESTER B. PEARSON INT'L A: 115.4
TORONTO ISLAND A: 112.8
TORONTO ASHBRIDGES BAY: 107.8
TORONTO METRO ZOO: 103.7
The point being that Ottawa gets a lot more snow than Toronto and Toronto also gets more thaws in winter to reduce the accumulation of snow and ice. To then apply significantly worse winter weather to a third rail system that is largely above ground is just asking for trouble. I remind you that even Vancouver with their relatively rare snowfalls has had problems with the Skytrain during snowy weather. We need to chose technology that will withstand our weather conditions the best. If we don't, we will have a mess on our hands with no way of getting commuters into and out of downtown.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4122  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2011, 3:33 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
The point being that Ottawa gets a lot more snow than Toronto and Toronto also gets more thaws in winter to reduce the accumulation of snow and ice. To then apply significantly worse winter weather to a third rail system that is largely above ground is just asking for trouble. I remind you that even Vancouver with their relatively rare snowfalls has had problems with the Skytrain during snowy weather. We need to chose technology that will withstand our weather conditions the best. If we don't, we will have a mess on our hands with no way of getting commuters into and out of downtown.
I totally agree with your conclusion, just not your input data!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4123  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2011, 2:04 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,639
Having shovelled snow before, I agree that we get a lot of it, and a third rail is a bad idea. If you don't plan for the inevitable, bad things will happen. Like running surface trains behind snowplows during rush hour traffic downtown - which is the preffered mode of rapid transit for Ottawa Sun readers because apparently ice and snow will shut down the tunnel in no time...

That said, the western leg of LRT needs to be fast-tracked and the O-Train extended ASAP. That would actually give Ottawa the basics of a rail network.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4124  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 1:24 AM
AuxTown's Avatar
AuxTown AuxTown is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 4,642
Add Athens to the list of cities I've visited (came home yesterday) with a great rapid transit system. That city is in shambles but their subway system is great! I know it got a big boost for the Olympics, but we are the capital city of a large and wealthy nation. I think it would be so great if we extended the O-Train to the airport at the same time that the LRT. It's embarrassing that it terminates so close to the airport now, relatively, when you consider not just the geographical distance but the lack of any significant barriers between Greenboro and YOW. When do you guys think it will happen, terminus or spur?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4125  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 1:51 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
Add Athens to the list of cities I've visited (came home yesterday) with a great rapid transit system. That city is in shambles but their subway system is great! I know it got a big boost for the Olympics, but we are the capital city of a large and wealthy nation. I think it would be so great if we extended the O-Train to the airport at the same time that the LRT. It's embarrassing that it terminates so close to the airport now, relatively, when you consider not just the geographical distance but the lack of any significant barriers between Greenboro and YOW. When do you guys think it will happen, terminus or spur?
I think adding two infill stations (Gladstone and Walkley) and extending to Hull should take priority. The cost:ridership benefit of the airport link isn't there, yet. It might be once the EW line is running in 300 years, and once Hull and its civil service population is added as an origin/destination for airport and other traffic.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4126  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 2:09 AM
Luker Luker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 377
You'd think all would be achievable for a relatively low price, Bridge repair aside which was estimated at I believe 100M - Gladstone - Walkley - and airport extension and station could be accomplished for around than $60-80 million.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4127  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 3:01 AM
Jamaican-Phoenix's Avatar
Jamaican-Phoenix Jamaican-Phoenix is offline
R2-D2's army of death
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Downtown Ottawa
Posts: 3,561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luker View Post
You'd think all would be achievable for a relatively low price, Bridge repair aside which was estimated at I believe 100M - Gladstone - Walkley - and airport extension and station could be accomplished for around than $60-80 million.
Alas, I doubt it will happen since we in this city are afraid of anything new, progressive, or expensive.
__________________
Franky: Ajldub, name calling is what they do when good arguments can't be found - don't sink to their level. Claiming the thread is "boring" is also a way to try to discredit a thread that doesn't match their particular bias.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4128  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 3:33 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix View Post
Alas, I doubt it will happen since we in this city are afraid of anything new, progressive, or expensive.
Also afraid of anything new, progressive, and cheap or old, progressive, and expensive.

Not at all afraid, however, of anything new, regressive, and expensive.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4129  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 11:43 AM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
I think adding two infill stations (Gladstone and Walkley) and extending to Hull should take priority. The cost:ridership benefit of the airport link isn't there, yet. It might be once the EW line is running in 300 years, and once Hull and its civil service population is added as an origin/destination for airport and other traffic.
might as well add South Keys as the southern terminus at the same time too, especially since the City/OCTranspo want the expanded O-Train to be used over the SE Transitway during the conversion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4130  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 5:35 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
might as well add South Keys as the southern terminus at the same time too, especially since the City/OCTranspo want the expanded O-Train to be used over the SE Transitway during the conversion.
Is there any advantage over just the Greenboro status quo, though, given the short distance?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4131  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 6:28 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Is there any advantage over just the Greenboro status quo, though, given the short distance?
should cost next to nothing to add it, it's a busy station, and I think it could be easier to run as a transfer hub for local routes from Blossom Park, and East and West Hunt Clubs (don't know about Riverside South?) than Greenboro would be
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4132  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 7:20 PM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
I also agree that a driverless method needs to be looked at, like Vancouver. The only downside is that the third rail system makes it quite difficult to operate in Ottawa winters outdoors, any snowstorm of 20-25 cm or more could potentially cripple the system since the third rail would not work when covered by snow to a significant degree (although it gets pretty crippled now anyway) while overhead pantograph would be more reliable in all except rare ice storms.
Doesn't the Cityval have a neither/nor option? with no exposed 3rd rail and no overhead wires?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4133  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 7:42 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by McC View Post
should cost next to nothing to add it, it's a busy station, and I think it could be easier to run as a transfer hub for local routes from Blossom Park, and East and West Hunt Clubs (don't know about Riverside South?) than Greenboro would be
I thought all those buses served Greenboro anyway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4134  
Old Posted Jul 20, 2011, 7:45 PM
gjhall's Avatar
gjhall gjhall is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 1,297
They do. There's no turnaround for Northbound buses at South Keys. The two stations basically work together, but South Keys is built for transfers whereas Greenboro is for park and ride and otrain transfers mainly. There's a lot more room to spread out to wait for your transfer at South Keys.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4135  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 2:05 AM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nepean
Posts: 2,661
Tunney’s Pasture Station; the latest plan (July 14, 2011):

Tunney’s Pasture’s Station is planned to be the terminus for the buses from the west and south-west and the terminus for the LRT from the east. This station will likely have up to 10,000 people per hour passing through it in the peak periods; most transferring between the trains and buses.

The current plan is for a side-platform rail station in the trench and a bus loop north-west of that. It is hoped that bus lay up space can be found just west of the station’s bus loop.


From: July 14 Presentation to City Council: Station layout

In the above image, the bus lay up area (under discussion) is shown in dark red. The bus movements are not yet finalized, but a previous version of the Tunney’s Pasture Station had a more developed bus facility. In that previous design, however, buses were to have a lay up along Yarrow. Unfortunately, Yarrow is a one-way street, making it hard for buses to get back into the station. Moving the lay up area to west of the bus loop provides direct access to the bus loop and storage space for more buses.

Buses arriving from Scott, via the new bi-directional lane (which will effectively be a continuation of Goldenrod), or from the Transitway will likely drop off passengers along the south leg of the bus loop and pick up passengers along the north leg. There will be a restraint around the east end of the loop to prevent people from cutting across the roadway. There is no covering along the bus platforms aside from the individual shelters. However, there will be a covered walkway leading toward the Government Buildings which will provide some shelter for the few metres from the east end of the bus loop into the station. [Personal opinion: Frankly, for the short duration that this covering will provide protection for the majority of people, it is not worth the extra cost.]

It does not appear that passengers will make the transfer between buses and trains within one ‘Fare-paid’ zone; they will need to show proof of payment for each vehicle they board.

The rail portion of the station has been developed to a slightly higher degree, as presented to City Council. This is planned to be a side-platform station.


From: July 14 Presentation to City Council: The Concourse Level, showing pedestrian access

The dashed blue lines show the roof outline, indicating that there will be no roof over the trains in the center of the station. It also shows that there is a ‘notch’ in the roof over the east entrance, providing poor coverage for people coming to and leaving the station. [Personal opinion: I believe that the roof should be complete to reduce the affects of the weather, both along the station platforms, where snow will blow in, and over the entrance.] The west entrance is well protected by the station’s roof and walkway cover.

Interestingly, the architecture is such that people enter through the fare control in the middle of the station and then must chose to descent on either the right or left side to a platform. During peak periods, the train frequency is expected to be every 3 minutes and 15 seconds so trains will alternate between the two platforms. Apparently there will be signage to let people know which train is to leave next.

The vast majority of pedestrian travel through this station will be via the west-end stairs and escalators. Staff has chosen to put the escalators (presumably UP only) in the busiest end of the station and just stairs in the east end. [Personal opinion: I don’t know which has a higher through-put, stairs or escalators, but the west end will need to be designed for high through-put.] Since there are transfers in both directions, to trains and to buses, the west-end of the station will have the most congestion and interference between customers. That includes the people who get half-way to a platform to see their train leaving and must re-ascend to go to the other platform. There are two sets of stairs, one (UP) escalator, and two elevators per platform. [Personal opinion: It might be possible to replace the elevators with long, switch-back ramps along the side walls; this would reduce the operating and maintenance costs. Also, because it is only about 5.7 metres (less than 2 stories) in height, it might be practical to use only stairs with no escalators; further reducing costs.]


From: July 14 Presentation to City Council: The Platform Level

The stairs direct customers to a platform area of roughly 45 metres by 5 metres near the center of the trains. [Personal opinion: The narrow ‘neck’ (2 metres wide) that people and wheelchairs must go through to get to/from the end of the platform will not be inviting.] [Personal opinion: I don’t understand why the widths of the platforms are constricted in the center. Since this station is a transfer station and therefore will have higher pedestrian movements than others, it doesn’t make sense to me to narrow the platforms to the ‘standard’ widths.]

Tunney’s Pasture Station; an alternative:

Tunney’s Pasture Station could be designed as a central-platform station. This would reduce the number of sets of stairs, escalators and elevators required; lowering the construction and operating costs. Also, with a central platform, customers descend to the platform and board which-ever train is departing next; removing the ‘wrong platform cross-over’ traffic on the stairs/escalators. There are also fewer wall surfaces within reach of ‘taggers’ and graffiti artists.

Rearranging the diagrams presented by staff to City Council on July 14, 2011, a central-platform station could look like this:


Modified from: July 14 presentation to City Council: The Concourse Level


Modified from: July 14 presentation to City Council: The Platform Level

In the illustrations, the escalators have been removed and replaced with more stairs, but this is not a requirement. Also, the stairs have been simply moved into the center and remain in the same place along the platform, which might still pack people into the central portion of the platform. It might be possible, and probably desirable, to move the stairs closer to the ends of the station; creating more usable space on the platform.

The ‘gap’ between the west and east concourse sections has been filled in and the elevators have been moved to the center of the concourse and platform; this should help everyone feel included and safer.

In place of all the little auxiliary rooms on the Platform Level of the Staff Plan, there is a large area at the west end of the platform. Also, the ‘nooks’ on the other side of the trains from the platform can still be used as mechanical rooms.

One of the arguments that have been used by staff against configuring Tunney’s Pasture Station with a central platform is the existing double box culvert which runs along under the Transitway. The only staff diagram available showing the culverts is from an older design but the change in the roof-line is immaterial in the diagram since it shows that side platforms put the trains running directly over the culverts.


Modified from: May 14 presentation to PTAC: Tunney’s Pasture end-on profile

In the above diagram, the trains have been moved to the sides (red trains) and off the culverts. This would leave only the relatively light platform over the culverts. Also, there appears to enough space beside the culverts (to the left in the picture) for columns to be added should something be built over the station.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4136  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 3:27 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
Unfortunately, Yarrow is a one-way street, making it hard for buses to get back into the station.
That seems like a fantastically easy problem to solve.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4137  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 1:10 PM
OttawaSteve's Avatar
OttawaSteve OttawaSteve is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
It does not appear that passengers will make the transfer between buses and trains within one ‘Fare-paid’ zone; they will need to show proof of payment for each vehicle they board.
Given the volume of passengers making bus-to-LRT transfers here (and vice versa), the bus loop really should be inside the fare-paid zone. There is a lot at stake, from a customer/public relations point of view, in making this transfer seem as smooth and effortless as possible. Marketed correctly, the promise of hopping off your bus and straight onto a waiting train (perhaps with an optional stop at the Tim Horton's kiosk on the concourse...) in climate-controlled comfort would do wonders to mitigate the perceived inconvenience and/or inanity of the transfer.

With this proposed station design, this seems easily achievable by closing the west-end entrance to walk-in traffic and eliminating the fare control there. This would slightly inconvenience passengers in the western half of the station's local catchment area, who would need to walk to the main entrance at Holland.

And I agree that Tunney's ought to be a centre-platform station, for similar reasons: the prospect of missing trains while running back and forth between platforms (irrational or not) is just one more opportunity for passengers to resent having to transfer here.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4138  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 5:00 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 5,243
Quote:
Originally Posted by OttawaSteve View Post
Given the volume of passengers making bus-to-LRT transfers here (and vice versa), the bus loop really should be inside the fare-paid zone. There is a lot at stake, from a customer/public relations point of view, in making this transfer seem as smooth and effortless as possible. Marketed correctly, the promise of hopping off your bus and straight onto a waiting train (perhaps with an optional stop at the Tim Horton's kiosk on the concourse...) in climate-controlled comfort would do wonders to mitigate the perceived inconvenience and/or inanity of the transfer.

With this proposed station design, this seems easily achievable by closing the west-end entrance to walk-in traffic and eliminating the fare control there. This would slightly inconvenience passengers in the western half of the station's local catchment area, who would need to walk to the main entrance at Holland.

And I agree that Tunney's ought to be a centre-platform station, for similar reasons: the prospect of missing trains while running back and forth between platforms (irrational or not) is just one more opportunity for passengers to resent having to transfer here.
I disagree personally, since the bus station is temporary. If left alone, it would give more impetus to extending the LRT.

Also, to cut costs and reduce throwaway construction, I would keep the sharp left turn off the Transitway as opposed to having to blast a ramp that would become redundant.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4139  
Old Posted Jul 23, 2011, 11:59 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,090
They were drilling at Tunney's today. More exploratory, or are the hoping to find petroleum deposits to pay for the western extension?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4140  
Old Posted Jul 24, 2011, 2:15 AM
McC's Avatar
McC McC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 3,057
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
They were drilling at Tunney's today. More exploratory, or are the hoping to find petroleum deposits to pay for the western extension?
be shale gas if anything; you think Honeywell's contaminated Hintonburg's water? just wait! ;-)
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Ontario > Ottawa-Gatineau > Transportation
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 1:27 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.