Calgary Public Transit II

[5seconds]

Can anyone explain the 2nd street subway to me? Where would it start/end? Am I right in thinking it would service a NC and SE line only? I keep seeing it mentioned, but I wanted to look on a map and see what it actually entails.

Thanks!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

Can anyone explain the 2nd street subway to me? Where would it start/end? Am I right in thinking it would service a NC and SE line only? I keep seeing it mentioned, but I wanted to look on a map and see what it actually entails.

Thanks!

The 2nd street subway was decided as the best ROW into the downtown for the SELRT by a study done by Clifton ND-Lea. The study called was called the "Downtown LRT Feasibility Study" and was completed in 2006. A few options, like 4th street and 5th street were examined, but the 2nd street alignment was recommended as the optimal solution. The LRT would cross the Elbow river just south of the existing CP tracks by Inglewood, go to a station around 4th street SE, then run at grade along 10th avenue and finally go to a tunnel at 2nd street SW, with stations at 7th/6th avenue and at Eau Claire. If you google the study, you should be able to find it.

The tunnel as currently planned would just be for the SE. But many of us and many others (including an external evaluation of the LRT system by a British Engineering Firm) suggest that connecting to the NC LRT is a preferable option.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by eggbert

So, I'm watching the morning news and they were talking about the City Hall CTrain station closing again to finish construction. At the end of the report they say, "once that's done 4 car CTrains will be used. The station is expected to officially open in August."

Now, if I didn't know they still had to complete 4 car platforms on all of the lines outside of downtown I'd be pretty excited this morning hearing that.

Talk about misinforming the public with inaccurate news coverage!

Another Cara Fullerton hack job for morning news service.

I actually don;t know whether its the fault of the news reporter, the writers and researchers, or the morning news cyle itself. The new reporters are sometimes looking for a specific angle on the news story as a way to cope with the short cycle from development to presentation.

I noticed a lot of either inaccurate reporting during the recent Air Canada strike. Cara Fullerton was unable to come up with a story when there was no chaos, long lines, or angry customers when the passengers agents went on strike. The lack of news story cratered her segment and forced the reporter to actually report that nothing major was going on (and after that 2 second blurb she had to use filler to cover the rest of the 60 second time slot). Thye surprising result of not major lines blew apart Cara's scripted presentation about chaos at the airport. Also blew apart Suzanne Fox's intro to the story.

[fusili]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am super excited for the release of the 2011 Civic Census results. This year was the first year they asked people about their mode of transportation. It will be very interesting to see a breakdown of the percentage of drivers, transit, bikers and walkers on a community by community basis. I would not be surprised if Beltline had over 60% walkers.

[5seconds]

Originally Posted by fusili

The 2nd street subway was decided as the best ROW into the downtown for the SELRT by a study done by Clifton ND-Lea. The study called was called the "Downtown LRT Feasibility Study" and was completed in 2006. A few options, like 4th street and 5th street were examined, but the 2nd street alignment was recommended as the optimal solution. The LRT would cross the Elbow river just south of the existing CP tracks by Inglewood, go to a station around 4th street SE, then run at grade along 10th avenue and finally go to a tunnel at 2nd street SW, with stations at 7th/6th avenue and at Eau Claire. If you google the study, you should be able to find it.

The tunnel as currently planned would just be for the SE. But many of us and many others (including an external evaluation of the LRT system by a British Engineering Firm) suggest that connecting to the NC LRT is a preferable option.

That's awesome. I just got the study with the maps, and it looks interesting. Thanks for the overview!

[You Need A Thneed]

The construction tender is out for the expansion of OBMF.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by fusili

I don't know about anyone else, but I am super excited for the release of the 2011 Civic Census results. This year was the first year they asked people about their mode of transportation. It will be very interesting to see a breakdown of the percentage of drivers, transit, bikers and walkers on a community by community basis. I would not be surprised if Beltline had over 60% walkers.

Interesting. I don't recall being asked this question when the Civic Census takers came around.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by eggbert

So, I'm watching the morning news and they were talking about the City Hall CTrain station closing again to finish construction. At the end of the report they say, "once that's done 4 car CTrains will be used. The station is expected to officially open in August."

Now, if I didn't know they still had to complete 4 car platforms on all of the lines outside of downtown I'd be pretty excited this morning hearing that.

Talk about misinforming the public with inaccurate news coverage!

Yeah, I caught that in their evening blurb last night. The way they worded it wasn't exactly incorrect - they said that 7th Ave will be ready for 4 cars, or something to that effect. But it sure did sound like they were implying 4 cars are coming shortly.

Once again, a reminder of why you should take every single piece of info in the mass media with a grain of salt. They almost never get anything right. They're too busy trying to find another of "Bart's People".

[Radley77]

Broke Transit seeks budget boost
by Michael Platt
Calgary Sun - July 17, 2011
http://www.calgarysun.com/2011/07/17/platt-taxpayers-to-foot-city-bus-bill

&

After the Stampede party comes the transit challenge
by Tony Seskus
Calgary Herald - July 17, 2011
http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Seskus...allenge/5115038/story.html#ixzz1SUD2FaM3

Interesting... Chabot is proposing a differentiated fare payment (zone based) coming up when the smart card is rolled out.

Since 2007 costs have gone up by 23% and transit fares have only gone up by 12%. I think this highlights a problem that the option of raising fares at this accelerating rate is going to continue to cause short-trippers to discontinue using the system. I also understand that based on surveys, that Calgarians have shown an interest in investing more in public transit. By offering differentiated fares also allows for new express types of service to be provided that may have higher operational costs, but still be of considerable value to Calgarians. The flat fare strategy pricing strategy is going to result in the most compelling trips always being the ones that most burden the system and costs for transit use rising at a rate greater than inflation.

[You Need A Thneed]

Road Closure schedule for trackwork related to the Saddletowne extension: (From Calgary.ca)

As construction continues forward some road and lane closures will be required to get complete certain construction activities. In order to install the LRT railway tracks across roadways, these roads will be closed for a short duration of time to allow for the work to happen.

A temporary road closure is required for Martindale Boulevard between Martin Crossing Drive and Martha's Haven Parade N.E..

Scheduled start of closure: July 5, 2011

Tentative end of closure: July 22, 2011 (weather dependent ~3 weeks)

During the closure, on street parking will be unavailable in front of the following homes:

604 Martindale Blvd
608 Martindale Blvd
612 Martindale Blvd
630 Martindale Blvd
634 Martindale Blvd
During the closures there will be a 72 hour period where construction will continue throughout the night. This is being done due to the nature of work happening and to assist in keeping the closures as short as possible.

The following schedule is tentative as work is weather dependent and cannot be started till the previous closure is complete.

Martindale Blvd between Martinvalley Rd and Martindale Dr N.E.
Scheduled start of closure: June 27, 2011
Tentative end of closure: June 29, 2011 (weather dependent ~3 days)
Martindale Blvd between Martin Crossing Dr and Martha's Haven Parade N.E.
Scheduled start of closure: July 5, 2011
Tentative end of closure: July 22, 2011 (weather dependent ~3 weeks)
Martindale Blvd between Martinvalley Rd and Martindale Dr N.E.
Scheduled start of closure: July 23, 2011
Tentative end of closure: July 31, 2011 (weather dependent ~1 week)
Saddletowne circle between 80 Ave and Martindale Dr N.E.
Scheduled start of closure: August 1, 2011
Tentative end of closure: August 8, 2011 (weather dependent ~1 week)

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Radley77

The flat fare strategy pricing strategy is going to result in the most compelling trips always being the ones that most burden the system and costs for transit use rising at a rate greater than inflation.

Just to be contrarian... I could easily make a case that the "short trippers" actually burden the system more, because of such infrequent use. "Long trippers" are typically daily commuters who are the bread and butter of transit fares. The system (and its revenues) is built upon steady, reliable traffic made up of people who use it daily - as opposed to those who use it so infrequently that the thought of a monthly pass hasn't even crossed their minds.

Efficiencies in any infrastructure are made with volume, not opportunistic one-offs.

Anyway, the whole idea still smacks of someone desperately trying to make Calgary seem more "big city". A bit of a solution in search of a problem if you ask me. As I've opined before (with pretty much zero response from people here) - what "alternatives" are these short trippers turning to? Taxis? Walking? Buying a car? The implication that there's a large population in Calgary that is just dying to take transit a few blocks, but won't because it's a couple of dollars... I dunno, I'd have to see some serious research done before I'd be convinced.

[fusili]

I did a little research using the 2010 Census and this is what I came up with for catchment areas for each LRT line:

NW- 172K
South- 219K
NE- 148K
West- 105K

Just for a point of discussion. SE and NC lines to come shortly.

[freeweed]

Catchment meaning within walking/shuttle bus distance?

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Just to be contrarian... I could easily make a case that the "short trippers" actually burden the system more, because of such infrequent use. "Long trippers" are typically daily commuters who are the bread and butter of transit fares. The system (and its revenues) is built upon steady, reliable traffic made up of people who use it daily - as opposed to those who use it so infrequently that the thought of a monthly pass hasn't even crossed their minds.

Efficiencies in any infrastructure are made with volume, not opportunistic one-offs.

Anyway, the whole idea still smacks of someone desperately trying to make Calgary seem more "big city". A bit of a solution in search of a problem if you ask me. As I've opined before (with pretty much zero response from people here) - what "alternatives" are these short trippers turning to? Taxis? Walking? Buying a car? The implication that there's a large population in Calgary that is just dying to take transit a few blocks, but won't because it's a couple of dollars... I dunno, I'd have to see some serious research done before I'd be convinced.

It's better to allow these kinds of opportunities that will increase the overall good of the system, rather than stifling innovation. This happens when you focus on the most common denominator to the detriment of other users. A differentiation model helsp support services like the airport bus service without deep subsidies. It's important to give transportation engineers and planners a toolkit that allows them to be creative with service delivery.

As the Smart Card is rolled out, there is going to be much more opportunities for innovation to happen.

Calgary is more suited for fare differentiation IMO because our urban landscape has tremendous peaks and valleys. In recent years, in the US, the LRT system has been trending towards greater and greater fare differentiation, whereas flat fare is common for other public transit modes of services.

I understand that current model is that capital costs are funded mostly by other levels of government, and City of Calgary only handles the operating costs. If City of Calgary is to build a truly great public transit system it has and I believe will shift towards more differentiation of services, that allow City to better optimize service delivery and increase fiscal sustainability.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Catchment meaning within walking/shuttle bus distance?

Basically all communities served by that particular line (including feeder buses). So Rundle would be with Rundle Station, Edgemont assigned to Dalhousie, while communities like Bowness or Mission are not assigned to a line (either being too far from a station, or too close to downtown relative to the distance to the line- I doubt anyone in Mission takes the train from Erlton to downtown). Obviously there was some discretion used, but basically it is the total potential catchment area population.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem is long rides provide the highest positive externality, whereas short rides on the LRT during peak provides negative externality. Unless you can design a fare system that is easy to understand and accounts for those issues, you will end up with preverse ridership effects.

Much better to wait until 4 car trains are introduced and then see if there really is a need.

As for subsidy problems, easiest thing is to raise prices of passes, including seniors and U-Pass. Would be better to move seniors that really need help over to the low-income pass, and introduce restrictions on a higher price but still low price seniors pass banning peak service time travel (if a study showed an appreciable number of people using seniors' passes were travelling to a 9-5 job.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by fusili

I don't know about anyone else, but I am super excited for the release of the 2011 Civic Census results. This year was the first year they asked people about their mode of transportation. It will be very interesting to see a breakdown of the percentage of drivers, transit, bikers and walkers on a community by community basis. I would not be surprised if Beltline had over 60% walkers.

I'm pretty pumped about it too. It should come out any day now. I'm interested to see what the net migration of the city was.

Work has started on extending Canyon Meadows station to 4-car trains. There was a backhoe tearing down the emergency stairs this morning. I don't think this station will take too long to finish since the base for the extension was built back in 2001.

[UofC.engineer]

Shovel Ready Projects:
http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/cache/0/peixsgav5ad4c5452w20i2mz/566620718201104570298.PDF

Calgary Transit Funding and Fare Strategy:
http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/cache/0/peixsgav5ad4c5452w20i2mz/5665807182011050420567.PDF

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Shovel Ready Projects:
http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/cache/0/peixsgav5ad4c5452w20i2mz/566620718201104570298.PDF

Calgary Transit Funding and Fare Strategy:
http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/cache/0/peixsgav5ad4c5452w20i2mz/5665807182011050420567.PDF

From the first link:

Natural Gas Bus Project 62.4 million

Woot. I hope this project if approved goes with LNG buses for at least a small portion of the buses. CNG is a mature technology on the other hand, ready for full fleet deployment after a couple years testing with a major part of the fleet (50+ buses) if it is shown to save money.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

From the first link:

Woot. I hope this project if approved goes with LNG buses for at least a small portion of the buses. CNG is a mature technology on the other hand, ready for full fleet deployment after a couple years testing with a major part of the fleet (50+ buses) if it is shown to save money.

CNG has been a failure in every other city that its been tried in in Canada though. Vancouver and Toronto both had a contingent of CNG buses and have got rid of most of them, though the technology has supposedly improved since then. But its still not ideal in cold weather environments. I recall that Edmonton was looking at natural gas a possible fuel source recently as well, but they were thinking more of retrofit rather then buying new buses.