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  #4061  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 3:34 AM
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Dado Dado is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
The consultants had a mandate to maximize the number of users, which they did. They were never asked to find the more cost effective route.

It's as silly as that.
So why did they only propose two stations west of the canal in the original plan rather than three, a flaw that remains in this latest iteration?
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  #4062  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 4:05 AM
p_xavier p_xavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
So why did they only propose two stations west of the canal in the original plan rather than three, a flaw that remains in this latest iteration?
Because the catchment area was a 7.5 minutes walk instead of a normal 5 for a dense city. Same reason there's not even a Laurier station which is even farther from either Rideau or Campus.

You can find the original rationale here:

http://www.ottawalightrail.ca/media/pdf/Section8_Pages1to14_7MB.pdf


Quote:
The evaluation determined that the further north the alignment runs, the further north the catchment area of the stations shifted. This resulted in more of the station catchment area covering Parliament Hill and the Ottawa River which generate comparatively fewer trips. Businesses along Laurier Avenue and residential areas to the south of downtown would have reduced access to rapid transit.
Conversely, the further south the alignment runs, the further south the catchment area of the stations shifted. While more of the catchment area covers the developed areas of the downtown,the closer Laurier Avenue and the residential areas to the south are to the rapid transit stations, the higher the pressure will be to redevelop these stable neighbourhood areas. Based on the above, the recommended alignment and station
configuration is the cross-country route. This alignment is the most direct and cost efficient route (based on high-level, per metre cost estimates) for the tunnel. The alignment can be constructed easily, and will have low on-going maintenance costs as the track curvature is minimized.
The cost efficiency is based on the track layout only. You can see that stations depth or cost were never included in the original analysis. Laying tracks is one a cheapest activity during construction. It's also funny to see that higher density was not something that was wanted in the original study, which is usually a reason why a metro is constructed.

Quote:
The number and placement of stations in the downtown was based on existing and future population and employment densities. Local transit routes, major trip producers, existing building inter-connections and adequate coverage of the core were also considered. Using a 300-metre circle as a proxy for a five-minute walk, and a 500-metre circle for a 7.5-minute walk, the spacing of the stations was optimized. The analysis
indicated that two stations are required between Bronson Avenue and Elgin Street and another needed near the Rideau Centre. As each of the stations would have a minimum of two separate public entries from the platform to surface level, good coverage across the downtown would be provided.
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  #4063  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by d_jeffrey View Post
Plus the RFP doesn't specify any LRT train. The design/maintain/build will surely give way to a light metro system.
I read that possibility from that section of the report as well. For some reason this private-sector-led approach was too much for our private sector mayor, but SOP for our politicians' politician mayor, ironic isn't it? Anyway, I say that it won't be time wasted if we wind up with a better system for less cost, even if a better process would have got us this outcome sooner, we didn't have a better process before, and we were set to get a pretty crummy outcome!
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  #4064  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 11:42 AM
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some new artist's impressions of the station designs (striking, IMHO), and that same old weird sketch of a never-gonna-be future Westboro Station
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Shallo...et/5066739/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

Last edited by McC; Jul 8, 2011 at 11:42 AM. Reason: d'oh, paste link!
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  #4065  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2011, 5:27 PM
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From O'Brien's blog

http://www.larryobrien.net/?p=207
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  #4066  
Old Posted Jul 9, 2011, 7:20 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by McC View Post
some new artist's impressions of the station designs (striking, IMHO), and that same old weird sketch of a never-gonna-be future Westboro Station
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Shallo...et/5066739/story.html?cid=megadrop_story
Striking, yes.... but is there a chance some of them are overbuilt?
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  #4067  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 8:29 AM
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Just posting this Earl McRae junk here maybe to cause some reaction.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/07/12/lrt-tunnel-a-world-class-joke
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  #4068  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Cre47 View Post
Just posting this Earl McRae junk here maybe to cause some reaction.
http://www.ottawasun.com/2011/07/12/lrt-tunnel-a-world-class-joke
A well-informed, rhetorically sophisticated treatise against the building of the LRT tunnel, and thus a sobering but necessary read for all public transit advocates everywhere. Earl McRae is the Cicero of our times.

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  #4069  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 12:09 PM
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it'd be nice if newspapers still had editors ("Hey Earl, did you fact check this? I heard there was going to be some kind of screens along the platforms in the 'SUBWAY' stations to prevent people being pushed onto the tracks. They're probably real expensive, maybe complain about that instead?"). The Citizen's hardly much better.
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  #4070  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 12:39 PM
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some more details in the Citizen:
Quote:
City reveals more cost-cutting measures for light rail


BY NECO COCKBURN, THE OTTAWA CITIZEN JULY 13, 2011 8:18 AM

1

OTTAWA — A cheaper downtown tunnel route isn’t the only measure city staff have come up with to keep Ottawa’s light-rail project at its $2.1-billion price tag.

Revised plans for stations, including reduced platform lengths, and, in at least one case, putting off some costs until a later date are among ways the project has been changed in order to meet its budget.

A significant move would see changes phased in at Bayview Station, a major transfer point that will connect with the O-Train and a future north-south light-rail line as well as provide a potential future link with Gatineau.

A simpler station with two instead of three levels has been designed to serve only the needs of the current light-rail project “while providing for future provisions of station platforms to accommodate north/south connection when needed,” wrote Gary Craig, the city’s chief of rail engineering and maintenance, in an e-mail response to questions.

Staff say the phase-in minimizes property and construction costs. It also delays some costs until a future part of the city’s light-rail transit plans, although by just how long wasn’t immediately available.

Councillors on Thursday are to hear feedback from the public on the light-rail plans. City officials last week announced a major revision that moves the downtown tunnel portion of the 12.5-kilometre line to a straighter path under Queen Street. The tunnel would be shallower and more appealing to riders, officials said, and the city estimates it can be built for about $493 million, rather than $735 million.

And as previously announced, Campus Station has been moved from below ground to above ground, with engineers proposing to shorten the tunnel at its eastern end under the University of Ottawa, where soil conditions turned out to be sandier than expected.

A technical overview contains other changes aimed at cutting or controlling costs after a preliminary engineering team revisited previous assumptions and applied “innovation and creativity to modify the existing design to compress cost while maintaining or improving function,” Craig wrote.

Plans have changed for Blair Station, considered the major east-side hub between light rail and buses. Trains there are to run one level above buses, even though it was previously recommended that light rail operate below the buses.

Previous reports indicated concern that the “LRT on upper level” configuration didn’t leave enough space for anticipated bus volumes and passenger transfers. But as design work progressed, “it proved possible to increase the transit flow and integration while controlling costs by relocating the previously designed below grade (trenched) LRT section of the station to the surface,” Craig wrote. The move saves money because much of the existing infrastructure can be retained by keeping trains on top, staff say.

Previous plans indicated that many station platforms could eventually be lengthened to 180 metres as ridership increases and trains grow from four to six cars. The maximum platform length is now capped at 150 metres, with staff saying that detailed modelling based on information received from train suppliers has determined that projected peak ridership could be accommodated with 150-metre trains and platforms. Shorter platforms will also control costs, according to staff.

Platform configurations at some stations have been changed to separate east- and westbound “side” platforms instead of a “centre” platform layout in which people heading east and west would board trains from the same platform in the middle of the tracks.

Earlier reports indicated the centre platform configuration is the most efficient design. But the side platform configuration, used in other cities, was in some cases determined by the preliminary engineering team to be “optimal for function and maintains excellent safety characteristics,” Craig wrote.

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citize


Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/City+reveal...ht+rail/5092205/story.html#ixzz1RzMWDZ8G
and the same old rant from Ken Gray:
Quote:
Through it all, rail cost magically remains the same


By Ken Gray, Ottawa Citizen July 13, 2011

The more things change on Ottawa's light-rail project, the more they stay the same.

Last week, Mayor Jim Watson with much fanfare told the public that the troubled rail plan had been drastically reshaped, but that its price would land exactly on $2.1 billion. Not $19.99, not $13.95. No, taxpayers, just one low price of $2.1 billion. No word yet if the mayor will throw in a K-Tel patty stacker or Ginsu knife with this amazing onetime offer.

Oh sure, there might be some doubters ... some glass-half-empty types who might say that this all sounds a little wobbly. That on the cusp of issuing the public bidding process to build a rail colossus, the tunnel just went from drilling 10 storeys down to four storeys despite having years to study the appropriate depth. Same goes for the street.

The tunnel is now burrowing below Queen Street rather than its previous big loop in the core. Why, the whole project just got a revolutionary facelift and, coincidentally, all this rejigging came out at the unbelievable low price of $2.1 billion.

What could go wrong? This is the same city staff that told Ottawa City Council two years ago that the price had to be raised astronomically because the tunnel must be lengthened past the University of Ottawa due to "geotechnical reasons."

Then, recently, the tunnel had to be shortened by one-third because unstable sand was shockingly found in Sandy Hill, but the price remained that same low $2.1 billion. Again staff cited "geotechnical reasons."

Remember that the Bob Chiarelli plan would have gone from Barrhaven to the U of O for $884 million while this tunnel and line only goes from Tunney's Pasture to Blair Road at much more than double the price. Better throw in two Ginsu knives with this deal.

And don't forget that this new Queen Street line is based on core drilling results that staff refused to release for weeks to the Citizen in a ridiculous access-to-information stonewall. Who's not to trust?

The difference is that this time, Mayor Jim Watson said the changes would all be OK. And Watson's word stands for a lot in this community. The mayor is part of the political elite in town that includes John Baird, the Chiarellis and all those McGuintys, so Watson has credibility. He oozes charm. If you were drenched outside and Watson read a weather report that said it was warm and sunny, you'd throw away your umbrella. Nothing sticks to Watson.

Unfortunately for Teflon Jim, this tunnel plan was devised originally by Velcro Larry O'Brien. Most everything stuck to O'Brien. When O'Brien and his council killed the first rail plan, he was stuck with no plan. After an aborted Mayor's Task Force that yielded little but derision, O'Brien decided to try a tunnel. So he got staff to produce a report that had a number of options: a tunnel, a tunnel, a tunnel and a tunnel. After much public consultation, Velcro Larry opted for a tunnel.

Now five years later, the tunnel hasn't been started, though it has been straightened, lengthened, shortened, raised, budgeted and rebudgeted - all by people who have less tunnelling experience than "Bombardier," my backyard groundhog, who destroys the perennial garden annually. After all this, oddly, Watson has accepted the view in a report by city staff that city staff has done an outstanding job costing and planning the lightrail project and that the price is exactly what it should be. Watson said, with all his salesmanship and charm, that staff is right. And by golly, city council, the pundits and public were giddy with glee.

And who knows? Maybe Watson is right. A broken clock is right twice a day. But His Worship forgets the lesson of ex-mayor Chiarelli whose top-notch surface rail plan came in after the RFP at one-third higher in cost than city staff estimated. That caused the public to get cold feet, giving mayoral candidates Larry O'Brien and Alex Munter an opportunity to say that Chiarelli's project was out of control.

Now a current tunnel plan, costing 130 per cent more than the out-of-control Chiarelli project, is straining to remain within its budget. Remember that during Watson's winning election campaign, the mayor said he would wait for the private bids to come in before deciding to go forward with the rail plan. And why not? Better to rely on the expertise of private international companies in competition who build these projects every day than City Hall guesstimators.

Now Watson has decided to take the word of a faulty staff over the likes of Siemens or Bombardier. His Worship has changed a winning strategy and in doing so has abrogated a prime adage in business and sports: never change a winning game. Teflon Jim may have made his first major blunder.

Ken Gray is a former member of the Citizen editorial board who writes a blog The Bulldog at ottawacitizen. com/bulldog. His column runs on Wednesdays. [email protected].

© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

Read more: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Throug...ns+same/5093083/story.html#ixzz1RzlU3Xdb

Last edited by McC; Jul 13, 2011 at 2:22 PM. Reason: UPDATE
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  #4071  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 2:35 PM
S-Man S-Man is offline
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Earl McRae and Ken Gray are beyond dinosaur status - Grey's obsessive-compulsive aversion to anything 'city-like' happening in his tiny village of Ottawa is doing nothing good for the city; McRae's saliva-flinging rants about any type of spending on anything (especially transit users, pedestrians or cyclists) should have his editors reaching for a straitjacket, not a contract renewal form.
If I have to hear any more about how LRT is stupid and unnecessary and ruins cities, I'll scream. It's not a subway, Earl, it's a tunnel under downtown. And it will serve people going ACROSS town, not just DOWNTOWN. And yes, Vancouver, Edmonton and Calgary all have LRT - don't acknowledge its presence in Canada - just rant about how London has lots of people and we don't (London passed the 1 million people mark in 1811).
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  #4072  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 3:28 PM
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I think that Ken Gray is playing an important role in this process to make sure that we do not end up with an out of control project and that the project ends up as good as it can be. Yes, he is opposed to the tunnel and many don't like that, but if it was not him, it would be somebody else. This is not a perfect project therefore it deserves criticism. If it were not for criticism, we would still be looking at our first subway 12 stories underground. It would be a big mistake just to have everybody on some bandwagon blindly supporting the most expensive infrastructure project in Ottawa history. If criticism creates a better end result, we should be happy. On the other hand, we should make sure that we avoid 'reset buttons' as this sort of thing is disastrous for the city. It makes the possible impossible, whereas these situations can almost always be addressed through well thought out improvements.

I believe that Ottawa will need a tunnel sooner or later but I share many of Ken Gray's concerns about the current project. The mayor's recent speech is encouraging and addresses some of my concerns but ultimately, the bids will determine whether we have an affordable project. This project will not get the crucial green light until the bids are in our hands.
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  #4073  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 4:20 PM
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What particularly annoys me about the rantings and ravings of McRae and Gray is that it tends to give the City carte blanche to carry on doing things the way they've always done. Making educated, research critiques is beyond the ability of both of them.

Take a look at Ken's article: virtually in passing, he mentions the "geotechnical" issue. Well it happens he's right since that excuse is bunk; the City could have chosen to go shallow beneath Queen all along (as a few here and elsewhere have already suggested) but they chose instead to go deep "cross country". That was a mistake, an error, one that was pointed out numerous times before it was even confirmed, yet as far as the City is concerned they would never admit to it having been one. Unfortunately, Ken's mention of it is included in so much other raving that it becomes easy to ignore and to accept yet another of the City's lame excuses without question.

It seems we're so used to lame excuses from the City that we've become used to them; in this case we basically thank our lucky stars that some kind of sanity prevailed and the City gets away with its lame excuse - again. David Reevely commented in his blog yesterday about the comparability of the current and past cost estimates and how the City - that would be the Light Rail Office, Kyle - is once again doing its utmost to blur and confuse things: http://communities.canada.com/ottawaciti...t-you-can-t-compare-costs-city-says.aspx

Neco's article is far better than Ken's (and it is an article, not an op-ed) and what it shows is that the plan has changed considerably from one end to the other, and not just on the tunnel portion.
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  #4074  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 4:41 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by McC View Post
it'd be nice if newspapers still had editors ("Hey Earl, did you fact check this? I heard there was going to be some kind of screens along the platforms in the 'SUBWAY' stations to prevent people being pushed onto the tracks. They're probably real expensive, maybe complain about that instead?"). The Citizen's hardly much better.
Gee, I wonder what prevents crazies from pushing people in front of fast-moving buses on the Transitway downtown?

Oh yeah - THERE ARE NO FAST-MOVING BUSES ON THE TRANSITWAY DOWNTOWN.

Also - it looks like Earl or the Sun quietly edited out an earlier reference in the on-line version of the column to "above-ground" rail in Vancouver. Earl didn't know that the rail transit system in Vancouver runs through downtown Vancouver in tunnels...
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  #4075  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 4:42 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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What really gets me is the blatantly anti-transit Sun is the preferred reading choice of OC Transpo drivers.
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  #4076  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 4:56 PM
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What really gets me is the blatantly anti-transit Sun is the preferred reading choice of OC Transpo drivers.
Probably just a function of it being easier to read than a broadsheet without a desk/table.
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  #4077  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 5:31 PM
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I usually don't write things like this online but after reading Mcrae's article I couldn't help my self. I had to say something....

Quote:
What the hell is this 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 doing writing articles?? Your facts are so out of place and useless in comparison I stopped reading as soon as you started comparing us to Alpha world cities. IT IS NOT A SUBWAY you dimwit! It's a light rail system with a tunnel. I hope you know the proper definition of LRT and subway before you make stupid and half-assed assumptions. And just so you know, the city of Edmonton (metro pop. 1,034,945), which is slightly smaller than the Ottawa area, has a LRT system with a TUNNEL under their downtown core, not a SUBWAY. Furthermore, Edmonton's system has been in place since 1978 when their population was hardly even half a million people. So this isn't about becoming a world class city, it's about not being left behind in the stone ages. I can't believe a journalist can't even do proper research before writing the most TROLL-like article I've ever read. I'll never read a sun newspaper again as long as they hire retards like you...
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  #4078  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 5:36 PM
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I would not give Ken Gray any credit for the changing of the LRT plan to include a shallower tunnel one block north. His point of view since the inception of the plan has been "No tunnel, no tunnel, no tunnel, we're not Toronto, so there"

I doubt any city planners or engineers base their day on what Ken Grey has to say. One of his points of view is that suburbs breed friendliness, so we should vacate downtown and keep spreading into the countryside, with nothing over two storeys...but somehow make it affordable.

No, I think engineers and planners are performing their mandate to design the tunnel project so that it ultimately comes out at the same price tag laid out 2 years ago. That means shallower, straighter. Engineering work. Keeping it on budget because the whole project hinges on the cost - not retired, Westboro resident Ken Grey's opinion of the project.

All McRae and Grey are doing is cheerleading for the ever-popular (in Ottawa) pressing of the reset button. If it costs money, cancel it. If we could somehow get away with not doing something for a little while, cancel it.

Next column for Grey (besides more LRT 🞵🞵🞵🞵): Beautiful CFB Rockliffe being developed - that land shouldn't be touched!
Next column from McRae: Fire hydrants in front of co-op housing! The bums shouldn't waste our taxpayer dollars by demanding services!

OK...rant over...
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  #4079  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 9:39 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Unhappy

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Originally Posted by gjhall View Post
Probably just a function of it being easier to read than a broadsheet without a desk/table.
Still! Is the convenience worth having the anti-everything perspective left lying around transit buses?
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  #4080  
Old Posted Jul 13, 2011, 9:41 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by S-Man View Post
If it costs money, cancel it. If we could somehow get away with not doing something for a little while, cancel it.
Unless it's a road, a highway, or a highway bridge, or, probably, a highway tunnel.
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