Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Actually the video mentions that it will cost 25% less to construct than other elevated rapid transit options (it is mentioned a bit later on). I don't believe they are the only company out there to offer such elevated suspended monorail options either.

The SkyTrolley station will only be as big as of one of those road lanes.

I hear they have sold systems to Ogdenville, Brockway, and North Haverbrook, and by gum, it put them on the map!

(Do I really need to slap up another Simpsons video?)

I'm not sure why you would automatically believe anything they would tell you.

I, on the other hand, don't believe a single one of their claims.

• It is impossible for every piece to be so prefabricated and just installed into place. There would be a need for significant planning and design, and each piece would need to be custom prefabricated as each road will have different curves and elevation changes.
• I highly doubt that some steel pillars could hold up the guideway off to the side like that. The torque of a fully loaded train would be so immense, that I don't see how these flimsy sticks wouldn't snap like twigs. (In Wuppertal, the supports and guideways are enormous metal structures).
• The elevator stations are large, complex mechanical systems, that will be prone to breaking down. One small glitch or single motor out of action and the entire station will be unusable. Just think of how often escalators and elevators are out of service currently at Skytrain stations, the maintenence cost for stations would be insane.
• The station design also limits system capacity. Trains can only be so close to each other to allow a station to raise and lower before the next one arrives. It would be impossible to ever exceed the capacity of a LRT or bus system.
• Getting in and out of a station would take so long, that it doesn't have any time savings over ground based buses or LRT. And the elevators themselves can become crowded at certain stations, making it difficult to have room for people to get off to make room for people getting on.
• I don't see how you could cheaply add switches to the system. Trains would be stuck in a loop, and adding or removing them would be impossible. If a train breaks down, how do you get it out of service? If not all of them are needed, what do you do wit the extras? If a section of track is damaged and needs repairs, how do you go around it?

I think someone watched Batman Begins too many times and thought to themselves: I can patent that!

[bardak]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I hear they have sold systems to Ogdenville, Brockway, and North Haverbrook, and by gum, it put them on the map!

(Do I really need to slap up another Simpsons video?)

I'm not sure why you would automatically believe anything they would tell you.

I, on the other hand, don't believe a single one of their claims.

• It is impossible for every piece to be so prefabricated and just installed into place. There would be a need for significant planning and design, and each piece would need to be custom prefabricated as each road will have different curves and elevation changes.
• I highly doubt that some steel pillars could hold up the guideway off to the side like that. The torque of a fully loaded train would be so immense, that I don't see how these flimsy sticks wouldn't snap like twigs. (In Wuppertal, the supports and guideways are enormous metal structures).
• The elevator stations are large, complex mechanical systems, that will be prone to breaking down. One small glitch or single motor out of action and the entire station will be unusable. Just think of how often escalators and elevators are out of service currently at Skytrain stations, the maintenence cost for stations would be insane.
• The station design also limits system capacity. Trains can only be so close to each other to allow a station to raise and lower before the next one arrives. It would be impossible to ever exceed the capacity of a LRT or bus system.
• Getting in and out of a station would take so long, that it doesn't have any time savings over ground based buses or LRT. And the elevators themselves can become crowded at certain stations, making it difficult to have room for people to get off to make room for people getting on.
• I don't see how you could cheaply add switches to the system. Trains would be stuck in a loop, and adding or removing them would be impossible. If a train breaks down, how do you get it out of service? If not all of them are needed, what do you do wit the extras? If a section of track is damaged and needs repairs, how do you go around it?

I think someone watched Batman Begins too many times and thought to themselves: I can patent that!

Yeah it looks like someone just came up with the idea and got some one to mock it up. There seems to be little thought when it comes to the stations. Yeah a station that is an elavator seems like a good idea but the logistic don't make sense. I would find it hard for the construction cost of the stations would be any cheaper than a simple elevated platform and as others have said I would not trust the reliability of it. And then they want to have a attendant at each station (that is two per stop one for each direction) on something that is supposed to have relatively frequent stops this is going to be very labour heavy.

Honestly I think that these guys should keep working on what they have but I don't think that it is worth that much thought. Just like the Chinese rail/bus thing I think that its not worth getting to excited at least until they have a have a working prototype.

[xd_1771]

I highly doubt that some steel pillars could hold up the guideway off to the side like that. The torque of a fully loaded train would be so immense, that I don't see how these flimsy sticks wouldn't snap like twigs.

Guess what, these same "flimsy sticks" are how they manage to hold up the guideways at the system based in Japan, at a place more seismically active than our own pacific subduction zone.

I'm also not saying this is appropriate for use on a widespread basis, with the inability of use of switches such an implementation would have to be fairly limited i.e. single lines that would not need other branches for the long term. Nevertheless, for such routes, it does serve as an interesting option where other options may both deem unsuitable.

[Millennium2002]

xd_1771, I hate to say this, but you're really just destroying your own credibility by supporting this fantasy... in some ways I'd dare compare this to Zweisystem and his illogical comments at using LRT all over the place.

My criticisms off the bat from the renderings:
- Huge elevator stations? That'd most likely require huge mechanical boxes at which they obviously would not show until they worked out the actual system details. Even if the stuff could be put underground or integrated into a building it'd be a huge obstacle for utilities and building space.
(other criticism overruled)
- Emergency exits are impossible. Most likely you'll be stuck in a car for a long time until a fire truck with a ladder comes by and escorts people out. And I'm not really fond of climbing down one of those.

Logan5, I thought we've already discussed the problems of that elevated bus concept. A simple car crash can easily stall things. Not saying all drivers are bad, but you have to prepare for the unexpected. Besides I think people would be really confused at the potential new rules of operating a vehicle under such things (which can again lead to a system-stopping car crash). Perhaps you can protect the guideway with a whole series of concrete jersey barriers but that just makes me wonder if a completely elevated and segregated system would work better for the same amount of cost.

[trofirhen]

I hate to be a spoiler, but that elevated sky tram has got to be about the ugliest transit I have ever seen. It would destroy the aesthetic of any street it ran along (unless in a totally industrial zone) and I don't think it merits any further consideration. But of course, that's just one opinion. I'll let the experts slug this one out ............

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

My criticisms off the bat from the renderings:
...
- Guideways being supported on one side for such a suspended monorail (which it really is) are almost unheard of as far as I know. If you have pictures to demonstrate otherwise, then please challenge this, because the only pics of suspended monorails that I've seen so far all have support pillars on both sides. That's not a visual improvement over rail-based viaducts. You may argue that more appealing arches can be used but I doubt it'd be cost-effective to use them all over the place.
...

The Sky Trolley is just a suspended monorail - they exist in Japan and Germany:

Dortmund University in Germany has the type described where it is suspended only from one side:

http://www.metrotram.it/index.php?vmcity=DORTMUND&vmsys=mon&ind=0&num=4&lang=eng

Pic by Ti.mo on Flickr showing at side of street:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timo/152948750/

and Yadiwinarto on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/yogmeister/165969781/

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Ujx5x61io&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CK3qUGNOrQ&feature=related

Note that this particular system makes use of a single guideway for two-way traffic - with passing at stations.

There's also one at Dusseldorf airport (with dual guideway):

http://www.metrotram.it/index.php?vmcity=DUSSELDORF&vmsys=mon&num=4&ind=0&lang=eng

Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZR_oRcVJbs&feature=related

Larger scale single-sided support for suspended monorail in Japan:

Pic from Tokyo by Paul & Kelly on Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/paulkelly/2929612415/

[xd_1771]

- Guideways being supported on one side for such a suspended monorail (which it really is) are almost unheard of as far as I know.

You didn't fully watch that video, did you.... this already exists in a similar variant elsewhere in the world. Even in Japan, where people often crowd into trains at high densities of 5 people per square metre, it is working very well.

^^^ It looks like that from one of the above videos that (unlike standard monorail) switches aren't hard to construct. That's a big plus if this were to be adopted in a more widespread way, not that I push for a widespread use of this. This would also be great for moving stalled vehicles (with, perhaps, smaller maintenance vehicles that could be used to grab onto and tow away a stalled train) to out-of-the-way tracks and/or to a station to let off the passengers. Or trains could swap from one track to the other to skip the stalled train, in ways no different than how this is done on the existing Skytrain. Problem solved.

I can understand that the stations (though the idea is interesting) may create a lot of problems regarding maintenance an accessibility; then let's not build those type of stations. A standard elevated platform with glass windows and doors that open only when the train gets to the station (similar to other places in the world) would work very well. The suspended monorail itself would still be easy to construct.

EDIT: HERE is a google streetview image of the system in Japan. In this case, it is built in downtown over a narrow 2-lane road. The suspended monorail system in Chiba, Japan is built over many places and is the most extensive in the world. It doesn't seem to do any harm or look out of place with the urban, pedestrian-friendly cityscape. Here it is again over a 4-lane road, very narrow... there is no way you could fit LRT here. The support poles are pretty small, which is a good thing because they don't take up very much space on the ground. I don't find this to be in any way detrimenting to the design; for pete's sake, this is Japan, a place hit by heavy earthquakes every year, and these apparently small support poles have no problem at all keeping this line elevated and not befallen.

I primarily like suspended monorail/skytrolley for the flexibility. Problems can be overcome in many different ways whether it comes to emergency situations, where to build the line, and how to build the stations.

[SpongeG]

skytrain is a mess this morning at broadway/commercial

Translink says: Due to a technical issue near Stadium Station, SkyTrain is running single-track service, alternating directions, between Commercial-Broadway and the downtown Stations.Expect delays along the system as a result.

AM730 Traffic facebook

[Waders]

The Expo line is still a mess at 9:30am. Train stops at each station for a much longer time. A lot of people are going to be late for work. Translink can't even say when the problem will be fixed.
I think everyone should just take the day off to enjoy the sunny weather.

According to CBC News,

"It appears that the train had picked up something along the track and that caused a break in one of the loops, which is the communication feature between the central control computer and the train. When that happens the computer just shuts everything down for safety reasons," said Snider.

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2011/07/04/bc-skytrain-problems.html

Updated at 9:51am: Looks like normal service has resumed. Oh well, no more excuse for a day off

[SpongeG]

glad i was off today - the coverage on the TV looked pretty bad

[hollywoodnorth]

I guess there is room for the 9X B-line now at the yard in Surrey. ..... I figure they will use 98 B-line again .... I would


http://www.translink.ca/en/Be-Part-of-the-Plan/Projects/Surrey-Transit-Centre.aspx

Surrey Transit Centre

Our oldest transit centre just got a whole lot better!

Thanks to the Government of Canada, Province of British Columbia and TransLink funding, the Surrey Transit Centre was upgraded and expanded to minimize operational impacts on the environment and help grow future transit service for south of Fraser communities. The centre officially opened on July 4, 2011.

The improvements include:

replacing underground fuel tanks with above ground storage
adding state-of-the-art waste water treatment plan that remotely monitored, automated technology to effectively and reliably monitor and remove oil and grease from waste water
adding a water recycling system that reduces water consumption by up to 80%
adding new bus fuelling and maintenance bays and expanding bus parking
increasing capacity to accommodate 300 buses, including 50 60-foot articulated, hydrid and compressed natural gas buses for future service expansion

Surrey Transit Centre is one of seven transit centres operated by Coast Mountain Bus Company, an operating company of TransLink, providing service south of Fraser. It also includes the Transit Communication Centre, which manages the day-to-day operations of the entire transit fleet.

[Millennium2002]

Due to the small backlash to TransLink's tax increases that were announced on Wednesday, the pro-LRT and pro-streetcar groups were out today promoting surface rail on CTV News as being cheaper and a fitting tribute to a past.

Title: Are modern streetcars the future?
Author: ctvbc.ca (as it appeared on the article)
Publisher: CTV British Columbia
Date: Friday Jul. 8, 2011 5:20 PM PT
URL: http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20110708/bc_interurban_tram_110708/20110708/

With too many cars on the road and gas prices creeping higher, the streetcar system of years past may be the answer for Vancouver's transportation future. ...

This bugged me into writing an essay in the comments section. Not sure whether it'll be posted (edit: yay they posted it), but I'll preserve my efforts here:

Originally Posted by Allan K, Vancouver, BC on CTV News:

Although I understand that there are places that can use LRT or streetcar, it's also worth noting the tradeoffs between types that prevent their use elsewhere. For major corridors like Evergreen and Broadway, road space for LRT and streetcar tracks and stations is already limited without removing / narrowing critical road lanes and sidewalks and thereby causing traffic jams on nearby important roads; alternatively, property acquisition costs to widen these corridors may be prohibitively expensive. In addition, the surface running of trains can make them significantly more prone to disruption from traffic jams, accidents, bad car drivers and jaywalkers unless more protection is added at extra cost. Due to their interactions with the street, trains will also need drivers and cannot follow each other as closely, which reduces the frequency, speed, and resulting capacity at which the network can be run. As you can see, the story in the end is not as rosy: streetcars and LRT may look nice and be cheap to build on paper, but they offer few other compelling advantages that would recommend their use in more demanding situations. This is why Vancouver plans to only run its streetcars around downtown on side streets as a complement to the SkyTrain system. Again, I'm not completely against streetcars or LRT, but there are reasons why SkyTrain, despite being more expensive, has been built alongside many major corridors, and there are also reasons why TransLink and its advisers don't easily bend to desires and instead have to look through all the options before recommending any system type for any given route.

[xd_1771]

$200 million per kilometre for skytrain!?
Massive exaggeration if I say so myself! The cost is closer to half that!

I don't think these guys actually know what they're fighting for...

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Due to the small backlash to TransLink's tax increases that were announced on Wednesday, the pro-LRT and pro-streetcar groups were out today promoting surface rail on CTV News as being cheaper and a fitting tribute to a past.



This bugged me into writing an essay in the comments section. Not sure whether it'll be posted (edit: yay they posted it), but I'll preserve my efforts here:

LOL the first thing in that article reads "A UBC professor of landscape architecture"..... I guess there's no more need to continue reading, but I will just for the kicks.

And thanks for that comment you posted.

[Political_R]

Streetcars work for short distances and connecting major destinations. While they can be a component of a mass transit system, they are not meant to replace metro rail. From what I have seen, there was quite a bit of TOD in the Coquitlam area and plenty will develop around Evergreen Line when it is comitted to. To build nothing less than Evergreen Line Skytrain would be a huge mistake due to limited future growth.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by squeezied

LOL the first thing in that article reads "A UBC professor of landscape architecture"..... I guess there's no more need to continue reading, but I will just for the kicks.

In the midst of a proposed two-cent gas tax increase to fund the high-priced Evergreen Line, Condon believes the streetcar system would be a better value as well.]

Seemed like he was advocating for trams to compliment Skytrain. Doesn't seem like a bad idea.

[logan5]

oops.......

[Waders]

Translink has issued a RFP for the Lonsdale Quay Station Area Plan and Development Concept. http://www.translink.ca/en/About-TransLi...ing-Opportunities/Open-Bids/Q11-050.aspx

There are some documents that can be interesting read:
- Transit-Oriented Communities A Primer on Key Concepts
- Transit Passenger Facility Design Guidelines

[Millennium2002]

Good. That dark bus exchange needed a makeover anyway. =S

EDIT: Here's a list of things I think they should do:

- Bulldoze the office building on top of the bus loop, and reconstruct it with a higher ceiling + entrance from Lonsdale
- Possibly enclose the bus loop from the elements from all sides execpt the north side (since that's where the buses come in) with either walls or glass (at entrances)
- Install new ventilation systems to bring in clean air and exhaust dirty air
- Install bright lighting fixtures, a reflective, durable, warm white ceiling, and warm white walls
- Ensure there are no nooks and crannies in the furnishings that birds can make nests or roost in

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

- Bulldoze the office building on top of the bus loop, and reconstruct it with a higher ceiling + entrance from Lonsdale

Really? Bulldoze ICBC's headquarters? ...and then build them a new one, presumably? That's not how I want my transit dollars spent.

Yes, the concrete above, below and on both sides of the loop is oppressive. But we gotta be realistic about what they can hope to accomplish.