Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon716
Northern Ontario isn't "too cold" for development until you get up near the James Bay, so I don't think it'd be the weather either. Maybe the reason is just that its rocky and hard to develop on? I don't know.
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There are places that aren't rocky and hard to develop on. Much of Thunder Bay is built on terrain similar to that in Toronto and Winnipeg, depending on which half of the city you're on. Outside of the north end, it's nearly identical to the area around Peterborough.
In the case of James Bay, it isn't that it is "too cold", it's that the swamp is so thick, bedrock is so far down, and frost lasts so long, that it is difficult to build anything underground or anything large. Everything up there floats on stilts. Water lines are above grounds and heated using electric coils in winter to keep the water liquid. You can't have a large population in that kind of environment, but no one is really looking to establish that. Our new mines won't have towns around them like they used to, the miners will live in the south and fly to the mines on bi-weekly shifts, bunking in trailers or temporary living quarters. (That also avoids the issue of "what does this community do now that the mine is closed", which has turned many "towns" up here into welfare cases.)
Thunder Bay is warmer than Winnipeg and Edmonton in winter, and slightly cooler than both in summer. Climate isn't an issue. We have enough water to supply the world's entire population, so that isn't a problem either. And we're not
too remote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Taeolas
I sometimes wonder (and I fully admit I'm an outside in this respect), if it might be better to split Northern Ontario off from the rest of Ontario. Sounds like many of its issues come about due to province wide regulations that only really apply to the southern part of the province. Or if no one wants to get into the constitutional quagmire a new province would require, maybe chop NoOn and give it to Manitoba instead? From an outsider perspective, Winnipeg seems like it would have a better feel for what to do with NoOn than Toronto does..
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Manitoba is probably less prepared to deal with issues faced by cities like Sault Ste. Marie or Sudbury than Ontario is to deal with issues in the far north, and Northern Ontario receives generous subsidies from Ontario, and being in the same province means it is far easier for us to share labour; someone in Toronto can come to Northern Ontario and work anywhere without no issues, while moving to another province might require learning slightly different standards. Our biggest industry is mining, and Toronto is home to a lot of mining companies. It's a good asset to be in the same province as that.
I've recently changed my position from separation to greater self governance. Regional government could simply be an upper-tier municipality with more responsibilities than the other upper-tier municipalities, removing the need for constitutional amendments to recognize any change in provincial boundaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz
It's too difficult to even improve infrastructure in that region because of the Canadian Shield. I imagine just widening a highway would be an enormous expense just because of the landscape there.
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Twinning 11/17 along the north shore, from Nipigon to Sault Ste. Marie, is estimated to cost at least a billion dollars. There would likely be situations where eastbound traffic and westbound traffic is separated by medians that are kilometres wide, or major realignments, because the terrain can't accept a wider road. It's similar to BC's coastal highways, except the top 80% of the mountains is cut off. Where the road is built, though, is very similar terrain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz
The only reason the population is declining in this region is because of the auto industry collapse. Before that, the population was increasing. It's all about jobs.
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Thunder Bay stopped growing in the late 1980s and early 1990s because the iron curtain fell. Our port was no longer as vital to Europe because Eastern Europe was participating in their market again. They didn't need Canadian wheat or iron; they could get that from Ukraine or Hungary instead. The growth of the internet and rise of commercial forestry in southeast Asia and Siberia has left our paper and lumber sectors struggling to compete (among other reasons). Our main industries, shipping and forestry, collapsed, and so did the population.
In 1971, Thunder Bay laid out an official plan expecting over 150,000 people by 1980 and as many as 400,000 by 2020, or something like that. The 1981 transportation plan doubles the size of the city. Less than 5% of its visions have been built in 30 years. A neighbourhood that would hold 30,000 by 2000 is still struggling to finish its first subdivision, with only 1,200 homes and 3,000 people. It would have had a skyline and the largest mall in Northern Ontario in its centre.
But the jobs disappeared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MolsonExport
I am not sure I want to trade places with densely populated countries. We actually have wilderness within an hour or two of most Canadian cities (outside of where I live). Real wilderness. 20 minutes from downtown Van. 90 minutes from downtown Mtl. Less from Calg/Ed/Ott. Only in Southern and Southwestern Ontario does it take more than a couple of hours to reach true wilderness. I — love wilderness.
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Density. Thunder Bay's current mayor wants to see the city reach 150,000 people within the next 20 years, and do it with limited urban sprawl. Thunder Bay is large enough that you wouldn't have to build very high to accommodate that many people, and our intercity industrial park is similar to Mississauga's city centre or the various "city centres" popping up in suburban Vancouver. Add some highrises and TODs and you've got a decent place to live without sacrificing wilderness, and without NIMBYism, since no one lives in that area currently. I doubt retail would be opposed to more people living near it. Industry should have been located near the air and sea ports in the first place. One of our development issues is the lack of industrial land ready for development. We don't service most of the port authority land, so while we have the largest port in the country (in terms of land area that is considered "the port"), we barely use any of it for actual port related activities. Two large islands meant to be industrial are basically a deer reserve.
Thunder Bay and Sudbury do have a lot of exurbs though. Thunder Bay probably has more exurbs as a proportion of land area than any other Canadian city. Our rural wards are very similar to American cities, widely spaced streets lined with large houses, though it's more rural in nature than those in northwest Duluth. Our zoning plan allows a house to be built almost anywhere that is rural and within city limits, as long as it fronts a street. And most of the lakes to the north and northeast are
surrounded by homes.
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