Canucks Central

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

I wouldn't.

Arson, theft, assault, vandalism... these are all criminal offenses. And these people KNOW they are crimes. These aren't "mistakes". People knew full well what they were doing, even if it was a lapse in judgement. The law shouldn't discern between good or bad decisions.

And if these people are ignorant of the law it still isn't an excuse for doing it.

Nobody's life was ruined by the riot itself, so if you want the punishment to fit the crime in any way, you wouldn't want some kid to have his future destroyed as a consequence of it.

[invisibleairwaves]

On the other hand, re: these rioters are good kids who got swept up in the mob mentality...nonsense. I'm a 20-year-old male, right in the demographic that's supposedly psychologically incapable of rational thought when these kinds of events take place, and I was in the middle of that crowd. The thought of taking part in violence never crossed my mind, and my instincts were to get the hell out of there. These people made a conscious choice to be there and participate, and they deserve see some consequences as a result of it.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by logan5

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Opinion+Psychology+riot+They+found+exciting/4960894/story.html

Some of the comments I've seen coming from these different sites (Facebook, The Sun etc.) are being a little hard on these kids. I think some people are underestimating how powerful the influence of the mob is, especially for a young male.

Out of curiousity, at what age do you think we can properly hold these people responsible for their behaviour?

And, on that reasoning, can we properly hold the young women who participated in the riot responsible, even if we excuse the young men?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by logan5

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Opinion+Psychology+riot+They+found+exciting/4960894/story.html

Some of the comments I've seen coming from these different sites (Facebook, The Sun etc.) are being a little hard on these kids. I think some people are underestimating how powerful the influence of the mob is, especially for a young male. It's a safe bet that some of us at that young age would have got caught up in it as well. The two examples that I've seen here, the Chinese kid from Richmond and the water polo kid from Maple Ridge are good kids who were under the influence of something very powerful. And I'm sure there are many other examples that we haven't seen.

Very different examples to me. One kid picks up a stick and smashes some windows after seeing others do it, the other guy comes prepared and armed to light a police car on fire (and knows how). Huge difference.

[SpikePhanta]

Many Canucks were injured in the final round:
Mayray = Vertebra
Hamhuis = lower body
Ehroff = Shoulder
Edler = Broken fingers
Higgins = Broken foot
Kesler = Hip
Malhotra = Eye not 100%
H.sedin = Back
Bieksa = knee

[SpikePhanta]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Very different examples to me. One kid picks up a stick and smashes some windows after seeing others do it, the other guy comes prepared and armed to light a police car on fire (and knows how). Huge difference.

Jason Li brought that stick with him, he was showing it off at school along with the Teddy Bear which is his sister's

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Many Canucks were injured in the final round:
Mayray = Vertebra
Hamhuis = lower body
Ehroff = Shoulder
Edler = Broken fingers
Higgins = Broken foot
Kesler = Hip
Malhotra = Eye not 100%
H.sedin = Back
Bieksa = knee

Good grief, no wonder they lost. I wonder what the Bruins were like, besides the obvious Nathan Horton concussion.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by IanS

Out of curiousity, at what age do you think we can properly hold these people responsible for their behaviour?

And, on that reasoning, can we properly hold the young women who participated in the riot responsible, even if we excuse the young men?

It's hard to put a number on emotional maturity. But generally speaking, males in their late teens and early twenties are emotionally immature. Given the right environment, their morals can be can be compromised. Weakened by alcohol, their emotions and senses went into overload.

Judging by the examples given here, I think it's safe to say that some young people did things that were completely out of character. Out of curiosity, how much blame for the violence and destruction do you lay on the city for creating this environment?

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

On the other hand, re: these rioters are good kids who got swept up in the mob mentality...nonsense. I'm a 20-year-old male, right in the demographic that's supposedly psychologically incapable of rational thought when these kinds of events take place, and I was in the middle of that crowd. The thought of taking part in violence never crossed my mind, and my instincts were to get the hell out of there. These people made a conscious choice to be there and participate, and they deserve see some consequences as a result of it.

Bingo, I'm 23 now, but there were certainly times in highschool and early college where I easily opted to make the less popular choice and leave some parties or events in which I didn't agree with for the nature of them.

Throw the book at them, and I have no problem in the public shaming of those who were actively involved in the riots. I have no sympathy with even certain friends who decided to stick around till well past 10 PM just watching the riots. Even though they didn't participate, they helped the riot keep going by blocking the 100s of idiots from being arrested by the police.

[entheosfog]

Hey guys, I put up a photo thread here of the post riot good that has happened since that horrible night:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/forumdisplay.php?f=126

[IanS]

Originally Posted by logan5

It's hard to put a number on emotional maturity. But generally speaking, males in their late teens and early twenties are emotionally immature. Given the right environment, their morals can be can be compromised. Weakened by alcohol, their emotions and senses went into overload.

Judging by the examples given here, I think it's safe to say that some young people did things that were completely out of character. Out of curiosity, how much blame for the violence and destruction do you lay on the city for creating this environment?

Soo.. we don't hold young males responsible for their actions unless and until they're in the their mid-20's? But the woman who participated.. it's ok to throw the book at them, right?


The City? Without knowing what information was available and what steps were taken, it's difficult to come to a concrete conclusion, but, being as kind as I can, I'd say that Robertson and his group was likely pretty naive. Certainly, in retrospect, the decision to proceed with the large event was wrongheaded, to say the least. However, I expect Robertson will likely succeed in passing the buck.

IMO, none of that excuses the behaviour of the rioters. You and I will have to disagree on the culpability of the young men (though I guess we agree on the culpability of the young women). IMO, adults should be treated as adults and actions such as those carried out by the rioters should have consequences.

[SpongeG]

i don't know about going soft on them, as I and others here probably overheard before the game even started people planned to riot - some even with signs and t-shirts with the word RIOT on them

a guy interviewed on CTV tonight who participated in the 94 riot when he was 15 said he went on down to watch game 7 with his family and on the train he overheard people talking about "burning the city down" and "who cares about the game we're going for the riot" kinda stuff

he said they left the game early as they felt something was about to happen and they wanted out of there

good on the water polo coming forward but his little act isn't going to make me feel any pity for him throw the book at him

[giallo]

A little public shaming, a fine and community hours for the teenagers/first-time offenders that broke or stole items. I think that's fair.

My beef is with the trash that was going around instigating fights. They seem to be getting away scott-free in all this.

This video is one of the worst.

I've watched the video a few times, and there are six guys that are together in this. They swarmed, sucker-punched and gang beat a few people in a matter of minutes. As soon as the cops show up, they take off in to the crowd.
First guy: black shirt and track pants. Second guy: grey hoodie and jean shorts. Third guy: black t-shirt and jean shorts. Fourth guy: sambrero and black hoodie. Fifth guy: Black muscle shirt and backwards cap. Sixth guy: gray shirt and what looks like gray jeans. These guys were out to hurt people. To me, they are far worse than any 17 year old that stole a Coach bag.

• Video Link

There's a blog post dedicated to them here:

http://www.vancouverriot.com/2011/06/dom...d-in-fight-at-815pm-on-granville-street/



As someone mentioned in the blog, these dudes are feral human beings with no regard for anyone's health or personal safety.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by logan5

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Opinion+Psychology+riot+They+found+exciting/4960894/story.html

Some of the comments I've seen coming from these different sites (Facebook, The Sun etc.) are being a little hard on these kids. I think some people are underestimating how powerful the influence of the mob is, especially for a young male. It's a safe bet that some of us at that young age would have got caught up in it as well. The two examples that I've seen here, the Chinese kid from Richmond and the water polo kid from Maple Ridge are good kids who were under the influence of something very powerful. And I'm sure there are many other examples that we haven't seen.

Some want to see them punished accordingly, which is reasonable, while a few others (one person in particular here) want to nail these kids to the wall. These ones that are on a witch hunt are the same ones, IMO, that would have been running wild through the streets of Vancouver if they were put in the same situation.

what a crock of shit. Bad judgement and group think is okay for perhaps smoking a joint or sneaking into a club, not wholesale destruction of property, looting, assaults, arson and endangerment.

it comes down to intent which is clear in my mind. Voluntary intoxication is not a defence, nor should..." i got caught up in the moment" ....

Sentencing will reflect their pasts and what they have done to right the wrong...but to suggest that we should feel sorry because they got caught up in the moment?

I was in the armed forces at their age....happen they should bring back national service...that would teach the little shites some respect....

[delboy]

Originally Posted by IanS

Out of curiousity, at what age do you think we can properly hold these people responsible for their behaviour?

And, on that reasoning, can we properly hold the young women who participated in the riot responsible, even if we excuse the young men?

well the law says 12 - 17 one is a youth and as such doesn't have the mental capacity to be treated as an adult and such persons need adult guidance, support and direction, which is the premise of the Youth Criminal Justice Act (which replaced the Young Offenders act).Sentencing reflects this. Unless raised to adult court for those 14 or over for serious, violent offences.

18 and over, one is an adult and is expected to be completely responsible for one's own actions.

As noted, those under 18 wil be default get a second chance, as their records are sealed at age 18.

[WarrenC12]

The Young Offenders Act is so out of date it's ridiculous.

[Millennium2002]

Uhh sure... we can follow the US example I guess... works well with all those good prisoners in those huge super-prisons... right? Where they can all become better "citizens"... err... I mean... better prisoners... =O

As much as you'd want to like toss them into one of those car fires for all the needless damage and destruction that they did, on the other hand it sounds rather foolish to force one's life to go to waste if and when they show remorse and show that they can mature their way out of this... don't you think?

The bigger worry for me is if we keep them in prison for so long or impose all sorts of conditions such that they feel like an outsider... it only hardens their lack of respect for society, government, and people... in the end we may just see their faces over and over again on the wanted list... and I really hope we can avoid that. It may fit in well with the Conservatives' anti crime and lock-down campaign but as far as I understand that's not the philosophy that the Canadian criminal and justice system generally works on, which is to give these people a second chance to reinvent themselves.

[delboy]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Uhh sure... we can follow the US example I guess... works well with all those good prisoners in those huge super-prisons... right? Where they can all become better "citizens"... err... I mean... better prisoners... =O

As much as you'd want to like toss them into one of those car fires for all the needless damage and destruction that they did, on the other hand it sounds rather foolish to force one's life to go to waste if and when they show remorse and show that they can mature their way out of this... don't you think?

The bigger worry for me is if we keep them in prison for so long or impose all sorts of conditions such that they feel like an outsider... it only hardens their lack of respect for society, government, and people... in the end we may just see their faces over and over again on the wanted list... and I really hope we can avoid that. It may fit in well with the Conservatives' anti crime and lock-down campaign but as far as I understand that's not the philosophy that the Canadian criminal and justice system generally works on, which is to give these people a second chance to reinvent themselves.

Canada does not impose harsh sentences. You appear to be operating on the assumption that most 'rioters' were great kids who fucked up, perhaps some of them are, but i would not be surprised if at least some are already known to the judiciary.

No one is suggesting that we throw away the key, but there should be a punishment that fits the crime. You and other bleeding hearts are losing sight of the fact that serious CRIMINAL offences were committed. The public is outraged.

There is a pardon system here, so looking ahead those with records can make application, assuming that they have behaved in the preceding 5 - 10 years.

No one made them do as they did and they are only acting remorseful as they know they are caught.....

[nova9]

Educators and counsellors take courses in developmental psychology and it is well known that the brain/frontal lobe of a teenager is still developing. The frontal lobe, of course, controls reason and empathy. This is not an excuse for bad behaviour but young adults' brains ARE different - it can explain rash or anti-social behaviour.

From a fact sheet created by NIMH -
"Another series of MRI studies is shedding light on how teens may process emotions differently than adults. Using functional MRI (fMRI), a team led by Dr. Deborah Yurgelun-Todd at Harvard's McLean Hospital scanned subjects' brain activity while they identified emotions on pictures of faces displayed on a computer screen. 5 Young teens, who characteristically perform poorly on the task, activated the amygdala, a brain center that mediates fear and other "gut" reactions, more than the frontal lobe. As teens grow older, their brain activity during this task tends to shift to the frontal lobe, leading to more reasoned perceptions and improved performance. Similarly, the researchers saw a shift in activation from the temporal lobe to the frontal lobe during a language skills task, as teens got older. These functional changes paralleled structural changes in temporal lobe white matter."

[IanS]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

As much as you'd want to like toss them into one of those car fires for all the needless damage and destruction that they did, on the other hand it sounds rather foolish to force one's life to go to waste if and when they show remorse and show that they can mature their way out of this... don't you think?

I don't think everyone is suggesting that they all be tossed into prison or anything. I know I'm not. I just think there should be consequences.

As for showing remorse etc., as far as I have been able to tell, the ones showing remorse are the ones who have been ID'd in public, like that water polo jerk from Maple Ridge. Yeah, he's "remorseful" now. Does anyone really believe he would be showing "remorse" if he wasn't in that picture? Doubt it.