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  #801  
Old Posted May 13, 2011, 11:06 AM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/15/reales...bow-room-streetscapesseventh-avenue.html

A Hotel With a Luxury: More Sidewalk Elbow Room



The Hotel Pennsylvania on Seventh Avenue, in 1919. The hotel is to be demolished.


By CHRISTOPHER GRAY
May 12, 2011

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IT is a favorite game to scout Pennsylvania Station, on the west side of Seventh Avenue from 31st to 33rd Street, for relics of the original 1910 building, demolished in the 1960s. Searchers find old handrails, stairways, columns and other elements.

But hunters should also look on the east side of Seventh, opposite the station, where the largest survivor remains undisturbed, an odd 15-foot setback 400 feet long. It runs in front of the old Hotel Pennsylvania, to be torn down by Vornado Realty Trust to make way for a 67-story building. But it looks as if the peculiar recess, established to create a forecourt to the old station, will survive.

When the Pennsylvania Railroad began buying property for its new building around 1900, it did not plan on going into the real estate business, as had the New York Central Railroad, the developer of not only Grand Central Terminal but also its surrounding blocks. Indeed New York Central, which had controlled much of the area for decades, envisioned a great income-producing tower directly above the station.

But the “Pennsy” started with nothing, and strained its budget just buying the dozens of properties it needed between Seventh and Eighth Avenues, from 31st to 33rd Street. Half a dozen proposed designs for Grand Central and its neighborhood exist. But no significant variants of the Penn Station plan survive, just the familiar monumental four-sided colonnade.

...The Hotel Pennsylvania is not much more than a big box with a dollop of classical features; it is strange how little ornament it takes to separate our conception of the historic from the disposable.

In 1916, when the hotel project was just forming, the railroad put in place a restriction: “No building or other structure shall be erected upon any part of the surface of the 15-foot strip of land fronting on Seventh Avenue” except for a portico. That requirement was to remain in place for 21 years from the completion of the hotel.

As it happened the architects, McKim, Mead & White, designed only a small portico, six projecting Ionic columns running just half the length of the facade and about six feet out, so the bulk of the setback area was essentially public space.

The intended effect of the setback — a plaza — was compromised by the scale of the 22-story hotel, which dwarfs the extra 15 feet. It does show how the builders of Penn Station considered their surroundings important and their station a civic monument, but it is next to absent from critical writing about the station and the hotel.

In 1921 the railroad sold the blockfront south of the hotel to Equitable Life, which echoed the earlier setback with the office building known today as 11 Penn Plaza. For a 22-story building on a 200-foot front, that’s 66,000 square feet, quite a sacrifice for aesthetics, since the original size of the plot was 51,000 square feet. Even doubled in span, the 15-foot recess is hard to see amid the jumbled skyline around Penn Station, which never got the coherence of Park Avenue north of Grand Central.

New York’s grid plan is a jealous god, and infractions like the Pennsy setback are rare. Among the others is one on Madison Avenue at 41st Street. The east side of Madison was widened a few feet in the 19th century, although thousands walk along daily without registering the change.

...Drawings for the Vornado tower, which was approved last year but now appears to be on hold, respect the setback — Vornado did not try to recover the lost space. So it appears that the strange 15-foot gap along Seventh Avenue will, like Jauncey Lane, survive far beyond the railroad station it was intended to honor.
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  #802  
Old Posted May 13, 2011, 5:18 PM
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I feel like this is project is really unworthy, but I reserve the right to change the mind upon subsequent renderings and construction.
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  #803  
Old Posted May 13, 2011, 8:27 PM
yaletown_fella yaletown_fella is offline
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I'm in disbelief this is getting torn down. It would be like tearing down the King Ed hotel in Toronto. Really sad.

Are they at least doing a facadectomy?
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  #804  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 1:03 PM
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Good Lord, why don't they go ahead with the damned demolition already?

What are they waiting for - for the "preservationists" to organize and gear up active opposition, until they gummy the works so much nothing can ever be built there?
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  #805  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 2:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaletown_fella View Post
Are they at least doing a facadectomy?
Nope. To be honest, the shape of the hotel with all its lightwells would defeat the purpose of having a large base with trading floors.
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  #806  
Old Posted May 26, 2011, 10:01 PM
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I wish this thing were like 400 feet shorter so I wouldn't have to look at it so prominently on the NYC skyline...this thing looks terrible IMO, like a chode...
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  #807  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 1:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don098 View Post
I wish this thing were like 400 feet shorter so I wouldn't have to look at it so prominently on the NYC skyline...this thing looks terrible IMO, like a chode...
Buddy, if u like these you like this.


http://images.travelpod.com/users/austins2011/1.1295434392.ifc-tower-2.jpg


http://www.digitaljournal.com/img/8/7/8/i/4/9/7/o/goldmansachs.jpg


http://www.plataformaarquitectura.cl/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1295321734-03-costanera-center.jpg


http://www.urbika.com/imgs/projects/large/1011_transbay-tower.jpg
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  #808  
Old Posted May 27, 2011, 7:05 PM
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That's kinda the point, every Pelli building looks the same, and from the looks of it NY's getting a pretty lame Pelli tower. If it were not replacing the hotel Pennsylvania, I would have no problem with this tower, but as it is, I just don't feel that this is superior at street level. Its essentially two negatives, boring tower, losing a beautiful hotel (okay from the outside), vs a new tall building in the skyline. I don't think its worth it.
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  #809  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 9:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
That's kinda the point, every Pelli building looks the same, and from the looks of it NY's getting a pretty lame Pelli tower. If it were not replacing the hotel Pennsylvania, I would have no problem with this tower, but as it is, I just don't feel that this is superior at street level. Its essentially two negatives, boring tower, losing a beautiful hotel (okay from the outside), vs a new tall building in the skyline. I don't think its worth it.

I agree, personally, I think it will kill that part of the manhattan skyline. I feel weird for this but I think the ESB needs to be by itself- I don't like seeing a piece of amazing architecture and history stuck next to some lame, weirdly shaped ugly modern building that looks completely out of place.
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  #810  
Old Posted May 30, 2011, 10:31 PM
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I don't understand how a new tower can "kill" the skyline. ESB has an incredible amount of breathing room from every angle. I cant think of a single supertall in an American city that has more.

I dont understand or endorse the infatuation with starchitects, but the closeup renderings of 15PP's cladding show it to be pretty remarkably different than Pelli's other towers. The slanted glass could be stunning. I think Bloomberg tower is one of the nicer office buildings we've gotten in the past years, and 15PP actually is much more of an homage to Empire in its massing and proportions. Yes, its certainly Pelli's style, but I think he actually put effort into this one.
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  #811  
Old Posted May 31, 2011, 12:11 AM
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Both design concepts are perfectly suitable for the skyline and modern tenant needs. They also in no way infringe on the ESB.
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  #812  
Old Posted May 31, 2011, 5:45 AM
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Actually, the only real problem with this design (in my opinion) is that it is too short, making the tower look too bulky. If it was 1400-1600 ft, it would be more aesthetically proportioned. If anything, the design sets off the ESB. I mean, if something as tall or taller than the ESB has to be built close by, it is better that it contrasts with it as much as possible, which 15 Penn does.
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  #813  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2011, 9:40 PM
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Keep the hotel. Build that bland copycat in Jersey City or Long Island City, where two other out of place gargantuans reside... that way 30 Hudson and One Court Square won't be so lonely.
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  #814  
Old Posted Jun 1, 2011, 10:30 PM
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The hotel is not exactly a work of art. Yes, the base is nice, but the rest is ugly and the top isn't very special IMO. If they could have kept the base, I would have been happier. However, the curves on this tower please me. It is rather unique for a NY tower to have curving sides and it will help to bring midtown into the 21st century. Another thing is that I don't like large expanses of plain brick with repeating windows, a feature that the hotel penn certainly has.

Now, i understand the unwillingness to see older buildings anihilated. I hate it, but at least the hotel is a very mediocre, even vulguar example of the classic european style and won't be lamented in the future like Penn Station or Singer building. Even Drake hotel was much prettier IMO.

I'm sure the base could have been saved somehow and encorporated into the retail podium as a facade-ectomy, that is my only point of contention with the developers.

Last edited by aquablue; Jun 1, 2011 at 10:43 PM.
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  #815  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 5:27 AM
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As someone who is sympathetic to calls of preservation, I think the hotel penn should be demolished.

This site is about getting the maximum number of people near transit. I think this alone out weighs arguments for preserving the skyline or hotel penns architecture.

I hate replacing beautiful architecture with crap or less dense development. But this is going to bring more (needed) density to the train station...and the new architecture is going to be excellent.
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  #816  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSsocal View Post
That's kinda the point, every Pelli building looks the same, and from the looks of it NY's getting a pretty lame Pelli tower.
I was about to defend Pelli, but then I went to their website and saw you have a point: Fat, bland, chode-like buildings with inward-tapering top surfaces are a recurring theme in their work. But there's another, totally different (and IMHO beautiful) strain in their work that I like much more: Buildings that are made out of simple relationships among parallel or intersecting planar surfaces. Too bad they turned to the Dark Side and went with the chode for 15 Penn. BTW, I thought the SF Transbay tower was being done by Renzo Piano?
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  #817  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 7:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
BTW, I thought the SF Transbay tower was being done by Renzo Piano?
Nah, the Piano proposal was for another site nearby, not sure if its dead now, no renderings were released. The main Transbay tower is another Pelli chode (still bitter they didn't go with the SOM design which I think we all preferred here).
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  #818  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 7:15 PM
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Eh...I don't think it looks that bad, or that fat. It's an office building, it's going to have large floor plates.




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  #819  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 8:24 PM
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I agree with STR, for what it is it's really not that bad. It's actually starting to grow on me. I do hope that we get the version that has goes straight up from 7th avenue with no setbacks though.

On a side note, we haven't seen many new renders STR, is this a sign of more to come or you taking a breather for a bit? I can't even begin to imagine how time consuming that must all be.
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  #820  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2011, 8:26 PM
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I'm downloading the new 2012 3DS Max right now. I'll probably mess around with the new features this weekend, but in general I've been taking a break.
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