Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[xd_1771]

Guildford has half the population of Newton, and yet look at the stats; there are more passups on the 320 than the 321. These are routes that are the same in the respect that they serve other town centres through these town centres, so they are easily comparable. If Guildford had as much population as Newton, there could theoretically and easily be twice the amount of passups. With the Rapidbus coming in from Coquitlam & Langley via Walnut Grove, Guildford is easily as much a regional hub into Surrey as Newton.

Comparing Guildford to Brentwood... not really fair, when the entire region is put into perspective. How bout Metrotown? It's the largest mall in Metro Vancouver and many people go there because of that. Likewise Guildford is the largest mall in the SOF currently, and it is about to become larger and significantly more attractive. There are many businesses around it strategically placed, i.e. a major movie theatre, to support it. In the end it'll end up similar to Metrotown in that it is a secondary major urban centre to a primary downtown core. Surrey Central Mall is nowadays like Pacific Centre - a downtown mall. Long gone are the days of Surrey Place. This is a mall that can help support other business in the downtown core and have its uses and is supported by residential in the downtown core, but due to the limited space & stores it is not suited for being a regional centre. Of course you have the other choices, if coming from Vancouver, of Semiahmoo Mall or Willowbrook: way too far away and not as easily served and expandable to by transit as soon.

No. 3 Road did not previously have 6 lanes, it was similar to 104th with 4 lanes/left turn lanes. you can see this for yourself at Global Air Photos.

[Whalleyboy]

actually is less then half of newton. Also i'd like to say in the future my money would be grandview corners in south surrey would become more regional destantion then guildford mall

[xd_1771]

Grandview corners seems to me more like a whole bunch of strip malls put together, but in essence if conisdered a mall then it does seem like it would make a very attractive outdoor mall. I don't see the likelihood of Grandview corners as that kind of regional destination. I can see it perhaps as becoming the next Queensborough, the place you go to because it's a bit closer and has a lot of better items than what your local area may have to offer. However, the accessibility part.... nada, not even an exit from Highway 99 as of the current. It doesn't seem to have as much a transit-centric nor pedestrian-centric design either, being more spread out and more separated by the roads and without any plan for such expanded transit to there as of now; in addition, if shopping in fresh air is what you are looking for, then the new Guildford Mall is going to have that too. Lastly, where is the majority of the population in the SOF located: far, very far from there.

[Whalleyboy]

theres another thing yoru over rating. Guildford mall sucks. I personally choose to travel to metro then go there normally and its closer. People will never see it a destination to go to. I never hear people from Langley wanting to go there just cause its there. Heck i know people NoF who dont even really know about guildford mall. Abbotsford is building there big out door mall right now to so you just lost people traveling from there. Its nothing its a mall for locals or when people can't find something at there more local mall. as for grandview its a huge growing area also its close to white rock which helps more too.

[xd_1771]

I'm pretty confident that the expansion & beautification is going to change things. If Guildford were to remain the way it is, then it would indeed suck, but that is not the case. If it were to remain a mall for locals, there really wouldn't be much reason for such expansion and push for beautification. In addition, Guildford is easily accessible. It's along a major highway and there are plans to expand to it by transit. Why do you think Guildford-Whalley transit has nearly as much problem as Newton-Whalley transit desipte that Guildford & areas house a lot less people? It has to be considered that the mall is one of many reasons why to go through and to Guildford, moreso than Newton. The priroities should be about the same for these areas, with none being better than the other.

Unfortunately building where there was nothing there before and attempting to grow it doesn't really guarantee anything for most of the people already there. There are places built up right now that just as easily or perhaps moreso deserve it, there's just not any work being done there to make it possible. Members here have mentioned earlier, Guildford is another one of those perfect places that should begin to grow up, but nothing is being done. Instead you're taking all that development and placing it far away, and investments to support these places that are farther away are significantly more expensive and at cost to these existing communities that had more potential when they were just built and the properties cost a lot. Who knows, perhaps Grandview will end up like Guildford and serve locals only... that's honestly the way I see it. Unfortunately there's no way to prove what will happen. Whereas if you bring transit to more existing built up areas like Guildford, it's more predictable and more viable.

[ryanmaccdn]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm pretty confident that the expansion & beautification is going to change things. If Guildford were to remain the way it is, then it would indeed suck, but that is not the case. If it were to remain a mall for locals, there really wouldn't be much reason for such expansion and push for beautification. In addition, Guildford is easily accessible. It's along a major highway and there are plans to expand to it by transit. Why do you think Guildford-Whalley transit has nearly as much problem as Newton-Whalley transit desipte that Guildford & areas house a lot less people? It has to be considered that the mall is one of many reasons why to go through and to Guildford, moreso than Newton. The priroities should be about the same for these areas, with none being better than the other.

Unfortunately building where there was nothing there before and attempting to grow it doesn't really guarantee anything for most of the people already there. There are places built up right now that just as easily or perhaps moreso deserve it, there's just not any work being done there to make it possible. Members here have mentioned earlier, Guildford is another one of those perfect places that should begin to grow up, but nothing is being done. Instead you're taking all that development and placing it far away, and investments to support these places that are farther away are significantly more expensive and at cost to these existing communities that had more potential when they were just built and the properties cost a lot. Who knows, perhaps Grandview will end up like Guildford and serve locals only... that's honestly the way I see it. Unfortunately there's no way to prove what will happen. Whereas if you bring transit to more existing built up areas like Guildford, it's more predictable and more viable.

Sorry, nope it SUCKS, and will continue to SUCK after reno. They havn't signed any major retail stores that are popular currently.

[dubsH]

I swore No 3 had 6 lanes back in the 90s ... but looking at some old pictures, I think xd is right. Having said that, there definitely is a difference in the width of the road (No 3 back then may as well have been 6 lanes, it was so spacious).

While I don't mean to harp on Guildford (as I have only been there once, and it was because I was forced to go there to meet up with friends), renovations should help boost Guildford's image as a local mall. Guildford is renovating so that it can retain existing tenants and not have them move into big box/strip plazas and possibly attract newer, better tenants in the future. How often do you go to Park Royal (which by square footage is currently larger than Guildford)? Why would you go to Park Royal when you have better, closer options (for NoF, Metrotown comes to mind)? Likewise, Guildford will remain a local (as in Guildford, nearby Fleetwood and Walnut Grove) magnet only.

As for Surrey trying to "grow" in places like Clayton - you have to ask developers that question as well. Why aren't they building 40 stories in Guildford? Why isn't Guildford a lucrative place to invest? Heck, look at Whalley - how many tower proposals have actually gone through in the past 10 years out of the X amount proposed? The majority of people who live in Surrey want their cars.

I really hope Surrey can become a great city with its several nodes working synergistically to create a vibrant place to live in. But you have to start somewhere small. Vancouver didn't get SkyTrain before it established a bus/streetcar network. Run several B-lines in these "high demand" corridors. Build up ridership, then justify it by building LRT or SkyTrain.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm pretty confident that the expansion & beautification is going to change things. If Guildford were to remain the way it is, then it would indeed suck, but that is not the case. If it were to remain a mall for locals, there really wouldn't be much reason for such expansion and push for beautification. In addition, Guildford is easily accessible. It's along a major highway and there are plans to expand to it by transit. Why do you think Guildford-Whalley transit has nearly as much problem as Newton-Whalley transit desipte that Guildford & areas house a lot less people? It has to be considered that the mall is one of many reasons why to go through and to Guildford, moreso than Newton. The priroities should be about the same for these areas, with none being better than the other.

Unfortunately building where there was nothing there before and attempting to grow it doesn't really guarantee anything for most of the people already there. There are places built up right now that just as easily or perhaps moreso deserve it, there's just not any work being done there to make it possible. Members here have mentioned earlier, Guildford is another one of those perfect places that should begin to grow up, but nothing is being done. Instead you're taking all that development and placing it far away, and investments to support these places that are farther away are significantly more expensive and at cost to these existing communities that had more potential when they were just built and the properties cost a lot. Who knows, perhaps Grandview will end up like Guildford and serve locals only... that's honestly the way I see it. Unfortunately there's no way to prove what will happen. Whereas if you bring transit to more existing built up areas like Guildford, it's more predictable and more viable.

I would more suggest that due to guildford location be close to skytrain helps it be transit friendly thus the packed buses. I bet its alot more traveling back home and to skytrain vs people traveling to guildford mall on transit. Guildford expansion is not a to draw in more people kind its more the they need it kind. Especially once they tear down the old area where the lordco and stuff is right now for the new guildford bus loop in that going in that location. I hope you've been taking that into account when you think of the rebuilding that there also losing a big area.

Also your whole arguement with metrotown. It wasnt what it was today because transit was put there it grew up from transit. Guildford grows up cause locals going there not the region. Most wont bother like i said since theres malls all over the place so why travel there. The only thing guildford really holds that makes it any worth while right now is its theater but eventually that might be taken down to make way for a theater in central due to theater laws. unless central can build up its density faster to justify another one there.

[xd_1771]

Metrotown was similar a mall to Guildford before the transit was put in. It may be necessary if we are to see further expansion of the mall, and it certainly did happen for Metrotown. Unfortunately if this doesn't happen then Guildford along with most of the other Surrey neighbourhoods will stay still. It has been said that a goal of Surrey is to fill in those empty lots, build up and become more urban in nature across the city, but the way development has been planned outward due to people in Surrey wanting their cars (i.e. what dubsH said), I frankly don't see that happening at all. A Skytrain line that serves this city, and is not just an extension of the Expo Line which services Vancouver, would do that, as it would enable a new, faster and better method of commute compared to automobiles between three major centres which, shall we agree, all serve different purposes and have an opportunity to work together. An LRT or BRT might serve current transit needs but I don't see it becoming a huge benefit to actual intra-city movement. I would rather drive via 152nd and 72nd to Newton than be forced to deal with much slower and potentially overcrowded transit. A reason many people use their car over transit is because transit is simply inconvenient, and an LRT or BRT might not necessarily change that for these people; it'd do well to aid transit riders perhaps, but that's really it. This is a city that pretty much unanimously likes to be on the move; the fastest option is preferred.

Considering the new Guildford bus loop, it does not seem to tie in well with any BRT or LRT expansion plans, that would otherwise be terminating under the Guildford overpass. There seems to be a lot of walking required just for a transfer or perhaps even access to the mall. I'm suddenly doubting that the bus loop will even be constructed.

There's really no guarantee that they will tear down the Guildford theatre and until then there can't be any judgments made about that.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Metrotown was similar a mall to Guildford before the transit was put in.

Sorry, but your age is betraying you here. All of the various pieces of Metrotown mall was built after SkyTrain, except for Woodwards itself. There was literally nothing there when SkyTrain started construction, and Metrotown station wasn't intended to be built until some future date. The station was only constructed in 1985 because the two prospective mall owners paid for it.

There really is no valid comparison between Guildford and Metrotown. Metrotown is a textbook example of transit-oriented development.

[xd_1771]

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/1982/003/2
Perhaps you may be on the right side concerning the mall (though honestly, it seems about as busy and as localized as Guildford is today). This image came some 3 years before Skytrain was built. I see a grown and continuously growing community in its infancy just waiting for the kind of transit support it needs to succeed further.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/1982/003/2
Perhaps you may be on the right side concerning the mall (though honestly, it seems about as busy and as localized as Guildford is today). This image came some 3 years before Skytrain was built. I see a grown and continuously growing community in its infancy just waiting for the kind of transit support it needs to succeed further.

1980s Vancouver looks a lot more green and colourful from the air than it does today. Maybe the 1980s scifi flicks about a future concrete destopia were right? (<3 Blade Runner and Robocop <3)

[dubsH]

The argument that LRT will be slow/potentially stuck in traffic is more than valid for Broadway, but I am hesitant to apply that blanket statement to any corridor in Surrey. Employment and population density is one thing, as are the width of the blocks and destinations to serve. Surrey has the space.

Guildford will never be a Metrotown - and if it strives to be, then it certainly deserves the so-called traffic jams on the local roads. Even with the introduction of SkyTrain, it will remain at the end of the line - SkyTrain will never run past Guildford (unless it takes a turn south to Fleetwood). Metrotown thrives because it is centrally located on the Expo Line - almost equidistant from downtown and from Surrey.

Ideally, SkyTrain Expo Line should be extended at most to Langley (and with complete Evergreen/UBC-Broadway Lines, that should be it for SkyTrain). A LRT circle route that runs down King George to Newton, then east to however best it can intersect with Fleetwood (and the Expo extension), up to Guildford and back to Surrey Central by 104th. That can solve the whole "but this Town Centre is more important than that one!" by connecting all of them together. The necessary space should also be reserved for future extension to South Surrey/White Rock and possibly westward to Strawberry Hill/North Delta.

[xd_1771]

Truthfully I don't agree either that Guildford will ever become a Metrotown. Metrotown strives because it now has reliable transit connection that is the same from either west and east; Guildford as a centre as well as a community strives in its own way: it is easily accessible from all directions. Unfortunately this is mostly done by car, causing congestion from all directions that is now hampering this accessiblity and delegating Guildford, fueled at one point by a crossroads that was the busiest in the city of Surrey, to a community that is more inward and local. Guildford is dying as a result of the problems with getting here; this needs to be solved from all directions, not just the north and east with the highway. Guildford has arguably the best densification & growth potential of all Surrey Centres aside from Whalley, and it is not being seen. Once the PMB is open, a new north-south route to Coquitlam Ctr - which will be served by transit - could become a very powerful north-south corridor for the City of Surrey. 152nd St to the south is a great and well-moving corridor connecting to Fleetwood and even S. Surrey, and will help fuel this new north-south backbone to the city; at the moment there's not much need to fix that. The east-west through Guildford does not lack either as a powerful and well-used corridor. Aside from well-serving Walnut Grove and by some extension, Langley, Guildford also has a possibility of serving as an alternate node to towns north of Fraser w/the GEB. The most powerful of these east-west to/through movements is to the west, or at least it will be as Whalley grows; however, this is perhaps going to become the weakest-served, with an LRT/ BRT line slower than what connections from the other directions offer - and there will be traffic problems. It even removes an incentive to go to Whalley. Surrey likes to be on the move; people coming from Guildford or beyond and going into the Metro Vancouver will just skip Whalley and take a bus to go through Lougheed to go elsewhere as it may end up being faster, and this is actually not good for Whalley because you're not actually bringing this "through" traffic through Surrey anymore; also, people going to the rest of the SOF except Whalley will continue to drive (i.e. 152nd St & 72nd to Newton, or take the highway to the east to Langley) because the driving options that are faster than slower and less attractive BRT/LRT are still there. It's almost as if the current plans are for Guildford to lose status as a Surrey-centric town centre.Sure, Guildford may perhaps not have Skytrain from all directions in the case of such introduction, but is this really necessary? From the north, east and south there will be new and powerful connections, and lacking is the west.

If the community of Guildford absolutely has to be an in-between point on a single transit route to succeed and be worth it, why not take the Fraser Hwy BRT/LRT/RRT line and route it up through Guildford? There would indeed be immense success & needed development initiative if that happens.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by dubsH

I swore No 3 had 6 lanes back in the 90s ... but looking at some old pictures, I think xd is right. Having said that, there definitely is a difference in the width of the road (No 3 back then may as well have been 6 lanes, it was so spacious).

No. 3 Road was four lanes with a two-way left turn lane. They acquired property to build the bus lanes.

[twoNeurons]

All this is rather moot, really.

Until we know which route is viable we can't even really determine the technology choice... and even then, if it's LRT, it may still be elevated, not taking any road space away from 104th. This may still have some advantages if going down to Newton... where it stands a better chance of being extended.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Zassk

All of the various pieces of Metrotown mall was built after SkyTrain, except for Woodwards itself. There was literally nothing there when SkyTrain started construction, and Metrotown station wasn't intended to be built until some future date.

That's exactly right, except that it was Sears that was there already.

[Gordon]

I wonder when we will see any of the Rapid Bus Routes in the Provincail Transit Plan get built? Surrey would be an x\excellent candidate for a couple of these routes.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/1982/003/2
Perhaps you may be on the right side concerning the mall (though honestly, it seems about as busy and as localized as Guildford is today). This image came some 3 years before Skytrain was built. I see a grown and continuously growing community in its infancy just waiting for the kind of transit support it needs to succeed further.

That building was a warehouse connected to the department store. The warehouse was converted into Metrotown Mall in 1986.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

http://www.globalairphotos.com/large/BC/Burnaby/Metrotown/1982/003/2
Perhaps you may be on the right side concerning the mall...

The shot below is a better one to show what was beside the Metrotown station immediately after the Expo line was built: