Highways in Canada

[Taeolas]

Just did a quick round trip from Freddy to Drummondville and back this weekend. Didn't take any pictures, but I saw a lot of work going on in twinning the last section between Riviere du Loup and Edmundston. Still a lot of work to do, but a lot has happened too. It should be nice when it's eventually complete.

Most of the work I noticed seemed to be between the border and St. Louis de Ha-ha. The other stretch hasn't been touched that I could tell, but it didn't look too difficult to do when they get to it. unlike the stretches they are doing.

[craner]

^ Right On.
A key little stretch twinned in the hope of eventually having a twinned highway from coast to coast. Once this is done there will be twinned highway from Halifax to Toronto - correct ?

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by craner

^ Right On.
A key little stretch twinned in the hope of eventually having a twinned highway from coast to coast. Once this is done there will be twinned highway from Halifax to Toronto - correct ?

Yup.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by craner

^ Right On.
A key little stretch twinned in the hope of eventually having a twinned highway from coast to coast. Once this is done there will be twinned highway from Halifax to Toronto - correct ?

Wolfville to Windsor (ON) actually.

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Wolfville to Windsor (ON) actually.

Yeah just what I was going to correct it to. The 4 lane does go west of Toronto after all. (I just wasn't positive how far past Halifax it went )

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Taeolas

Yeah just what I was going to correct it to. The 4 lane does go west of Toronto after all. (I just wasn't positive how far past Halifax it went )

Actually, on further thought, the highway from Halifax to the Annapolis Valley is only divided as far as Windsor (NS).........

So, in actual fact, you will soon be able to drive from Windsor to Windsor on an unbroken stretch of divided highway!

[craner]

Thanks guys.
Now it would be nice to get that little stretch at the east end of Manitoba done to the Ontario border. Then we would have twinning complete through Alberta, Sask, & Manitoba.
Keep pecking away at this thing.

[Wharn]

Highways that never were: Behold, the remains of the aborted Scarberia Expressway:



Had this road been built, it would have given the borough of Scarborough much better road access to the rest of the city. Yet another missing link. I agree with Pimpmasterdac when it comes to Toronto's highway system; it does not work. Frederick Gardiner is probably turning in his grave. The expressways in this city are clogged to the point where they are downright USELESS, and as a result commuter traffic gets pushed on to arterials. There, it creates a toxic mix of daydreaming pedestrians, dumb cyclists and hundreds of angry drivers.

London is supposed to have bad traffic, but I've driven along Oxford Street from the VMP to Hyde Park Road in 40 minutes during rush hour, about 14 kilometres. Meanwhile in Toronto, I have to go from Keele and Steeles to Leslie and Cummer. Barely 10 kilometres, and it takes me almost twice the amount of time.

[manny_santos]

I thought those were the remnants of the demolished easternmost section of the Gardiner Expressway.

[vid]

Why would they remove a road and leave the pillars behind?

Does Halifax still have that bridge to nothing?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by vid

Does Halifax still have that bridge to nothing?

If you are referring to the ramp at the Halifax end of the MacKay Bridge, it actually used to be a functioning off ramp until the roadway was re-alllgned.

It has since been removed.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Wharn

Highways that never were: Behold, the remains of the aborted Scarberia Expressway:



Had this road been built, it would have given the borough of Scarborough much better road access to the rest of the city. Yet another missing link. I agree with Pimpmasterdac when it comes to Toronto's highway system; it does not work. Frederick Gardiner is probably turning in his grave. The expressways in this city are clogged to the point where they are downright USELESS, and as a result commuter traffic gets pushed on to arterials. There, it creates a toxic mix of daydreaming pedestrians, dumb cyclists and hundreds of angry drivers.

London is supposed to have bad traffic, but I've driven along Oxford Street from the VMP to Hyde Park Road in 40 minutes during rush hour, about 14 kilometres. Meanwhile in Toronto, I have to go from Keele and Steeles to Leslie and Cummer. Barely 10 kilometres, and it takes me almost twice the amount of time.

Are these on Kingston Road? I'd check, but wikipedia is on hiatus at the moment.

[MolsonExport]

From 1943 (wikipedia master plan on Toronto area highways). Wikipedia is very sluggish.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Are these on Kingston Road? I'd check, but wikipedia is on hiatus at the moment.

They're along Lakeshore Blvd east of the Don. As mentioned, they are more accurately the remains of the easternmost portion of the Gardiner expressway which was demolished. Left behind for historical interest I suppose.

An early version of the Scarborough expressway would have used this stub, though the preferred option circa 1974 would not. This would have followed the Lakeshore east rail corridor through Riverdale/Leslieville/Upper Beaches. This ROW would have required fewer home demolitions than the previous proposal (though likely still considerable) and I can't see how it would have been done without jeopardizing future expansion of the rail corridor itself. It's not exactly a wide ROW.

[Pimpmasterdac]

The 1966 Toronto Master Plan would have implement a grand scheme of both expressways & subways. Here's a detailed map of what was finished, proposed, and demolished.



Toronto IMO shit the bed by attempting the Spadina Expressway before any of more essential freeways. Metro Toronto caved to Cadillac Fairview who were screaming their tits off about how they wouldn't build Yorkdale Mall unless it was adjacent to an expressway.

IMO Toronto should have completed the 400 South to the Gardiner, and completed the Eastern Gardiner (Scarborough Expressway) to the 401. The 400 South would have been a perfect bookend like 404 & DVP are, and the Scarborough Expressway would have formed a nice ring on the Southern lake shore.

Spadina was the least desirable of all the Expressways, as it abruptly would have ended at Bloor and flooded traffic in downtown. Crosstown would have been alright but extremely expensive for such a short expressway, and Richview would have possibly negated having a collector-express system.

Moving forward, as much as public transit is vital to relieving commute times, expressways need to be re-visited also. The closest thing I've seen is from http://www.gettorontomoving.ca/

This is what they propose for freeway and roads for Toronto. Basically finish the 400 South using the ROW only Black Creek Drive and the remainder under GO Rail lines to Fort York. Use the Hydro Corridor in Scarborough to build another freeway through there. It avoids the nastiness of expropriation as most of the land is owned, and gives real relief to the clogged GTA area freeways.

[haljackey]

Regarding Toronto's cancelled freeways:

I support the rationale for canceling the Spadina Expressway, but that should have justified the need to build the Highway 400 extension to help handle the load from this route. Failure to construct the 400 Extension overburdened the Don Valley Parkway into a mess as it was never designed to take the load it does and turned the 427 into a massive slab of concrete.

In the east end, if the Scarborough Expressway wasn't built (the Gardiner extension), then that should have justified the need to build a route through that Gateneau power corridor.

If these two routes were built, traffic in Toronto would be much better off today.

[The_Architect]

Not constructing the Spadina Expressway is one of the best things the city of Toronto has ever done. It would have absolutely tore through the Annex and turned Downtown Toronto into something like Detroit.

Building the Scarborough extension of the Gardiner would have torn through the Beaches and the Bluffs, and I am glad it was not built as well.

Continuing the 400 to the Gardiner probably should have been done, but the 427 is fine. I'd rather have a good downtown area than a ridiculous network of freeways. I'd rather have a more extensive subway/LRT system.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Not constructing the Spadina Expressway is one of the best things the city of Toronto has ever done. It would have absolutely tore through the Annex and turned Downtown Toronto into something like Detroit.

I really hate it when people's rationale for deleting freeways ultimately leads to the "just look at Detroit!" comparison. Detroit's problems are primarily macroeconomic issues and racial tensions, and the freeways ultimately have little if any impact on the shittiness of the city. Paris also has a very substantial expressway network, wouldn't we all want to end up like them?

I think if all the planned expressways were built, I think Toronto would look more like a polished version of Montreal, which has a similar road network. I agree with the cancellation of the Spadina as planned, but we needed another north-south route somewhere.

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Building the Scarborough extension of the Gardiner would have torn through the Beaches and the Bluffs, and I am glad it was not built as well.

So we resign an entire region of the city to geographic isolation because we can't stand to have a few dozen cottages demolished? And building expressways on cliffs? Both lame arguments, especially considering the breakwaters they are currently building will do more damage to the bluffs than any road could.

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Continuing the 400 to the Gardiner probably should have been done, but the 427 is fine. I'd rather have a good downtown area than a ridiculous network of freeways. I'd rather have a more extensive subway/LRT system.

What you have with Toronto expressways is essentially the same problem with London arterials: there are only two complete north-south connectors, both of them on opposite ends of the city and are currently handling more traffic than they were designed to.

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by Wharn

I really hate it when people's rationale for deleting freeways ultimately leads to the "just look at Detroit!" comparison. Detroit's problems are primarily macroeconomic issues and racial tensions, and the freeways ultimately have little if any impact on the shittiness of the city. Paris also has a very substantial expressway network, wouldn't we all want to end up like them?

I think if all the planned expressways were built, I think Toronto would look more like a polished version of Montreal, which has a similar road network. I agree with the cancellation of the Spadina as planned, but we needed another north-south route somewhere.

I'm not just saying "Look at Detroit!" in saying that's why it's failing, I point to Detroit when I try to show the difference between a downtown cut apart by freeways and one that has freeways around the outside but an full, intact downtown area. North-South routes are needed, and the Don/427 help with that, but the answer can't be one like the planned Spadina Expressway. The Allen is a good start to that, but it ends rather abruptly and would work much better if it directly connected to Bathurst.. without tearing up neighbourhoods like the Annex.

So we resign an entire region of the city to geographic isolation because we can't stand to have a few dozen cottages demolished? And building expressways on cliffs? Both lame arguments, especially considering the breakwaters they are currently building will do more damage to the bluffs than any road could.

Not geographic isolation, if there are ways of providing transportation without razing some of the best parts of the Toronto waterfront, then by all means do it. Besides, if the city makes it's transit better to serve the area well, why would they all have to drive into downtown anyways? Toronto is already too car-centric, might as well not make it more so.

Besides, the area is more than a "few dozen cottages". It's one of the nicer neighbourhoods of Scarborough, and the Bluffs and Beaches are 2 highly well known areas of the Toronto waterfront. The Bluffs themselves are viewed as a geological wonder, and a unique feature in North America. It would be like building an expressway right along the cliffs of Dover IMO.

[vid]

You can't serve downtown with a freeway if you're demolishing a large chunk of downtown to build it. A lot of American cities demolished more than a third of their downtowns to build freeways into them and they've only just begun to recover in the past 5 years.