NC LRT Advocacy Group

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Yes. It is actually "considering," as opposed to the past tense "considered." There is currently a north central corridor study underway being done by the MMM group. It may be done by now, I'm not sure. I haven't seen the report if it is complete. In speaking with one of their representatives at an open house awhile back, he seemed to think that the Edmonton Trail route was more probable than a Centre Street alignment.

Edmonton trail might be interesting if :
1) They hook it into the 8th Ave. Subway via the currently built City Hall connection
2) They jog back over the Centre street - if they do it at 16 ave, they only have to move about 400 m over to the west.

Centre south of 16th is a better urban corridor but Edmonton Tr would just be another bridge across the river with either underground or a bunch of house / small building expropriation. Might be quite a bit cheaper, for the compromise over Centre.

[ClaytonA]

[QUOTE=And people generally don't WANT to take transit for non-commuting trips, not enough freedom or flexibility even in perfect circumstances. That isn't a fault of the development, transit or individual behaviour.[/QUOTE]


I'd disagree with this statement, if the LRT actually goes somewhere I want to (downtown, Chinook, carpool meeting points for trips to the mountains, etc) I am inclined to take it because I live within walking distance of a station. The key is frequency and reliability of service. I'd take the LRT over a bus any day, it's a premium level of service (unfortunately you cannot do that to the airport, for example, so you find friends to drive you, or wait 45 minutes on a balmy Dec night for a very late bus-not necessarily typical, but it has happened and has affected my willingness to take buses). When I have to walk more than 10 minutes, ie Foothills hospital, I start thinking about driving.

While the concurrent cost would be a large burden, longer term the cost of continual LRT work is lower overall costs in constant dollars due to availability of experienced labour, equipment, materials, and scale.

I would think a Centre Street alignment would be safer than empty (of people) park and ride lots which would get built in Nose Creek. It would work really well if done properly and the cost benefit sounds like it would be positive. Stations similar to Lions Park, Sunnyside, and Banff Trail.

With a growing population, the existing south-northeast line doesn’t do enough to satisfy the travel needs of people elsewhere in the city. In response, four new lines are in varying stages of planning; unlike the existing lines, they won’t be built to compete with automobiles in travel time, possible only with few stations and isolated tracks. Rather, these new corridors will feature closely-spaced stations located in street medians. Extensions into the far suburbs, while being considered, aren’t the priority. The system’s future will be one that encourages round-the-clock use of trains in dense neighborhoods, not commutes from sprawling communities at peak hours alone. It’s a paradigm change, and if successful, Edmonton’s new system may prove to be a model for transit planning once again.
Quote from: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2009/...modern-light-rail-plans-major-expansion/

[outoftheice]

Article in the Herald regarding the upcoming NC LRT open houses. It's encouraging to see the discussion starting although I find the attitude displayed by the City's transit planning manager slightly concerning... The points made are valid but the way those concerns are presented by the City are going to be key in these discussions and it's definitely not a good start...

To imagine construction woes for a north LRT route, think of the west LRT project tearing up 17th Avenue, and “just consider magnifying that by about two or three,” transit planning manager Neil McKendrick said.

“Is that the kind of disruption you want in your community for two or three years, as well as have a rather large bill attached with that?” McKendrick said.

City launches discussion of north-central LRT route options
By Jason Markusoff, Calgary Herald


Read more: http://www.calgaryherald.com/City+launch...options/4828196/story.html#ixzz1NEvwT17y

[DizzyEdge]

^^ Geeze, way to set the tone Mr McKendrick.


(although that's probably accurate)

Anyone guess at a per km cost comparison for at grade, underground, elevated?

[Stang]

Edit: Moved to "Transit" thread.

[DizzyEdge]

I posted some ideas about the NCLRT in the Public Transit II forum.
Assuming we'd like to keep the NCLRT discussions in one place, should we do it there, or in this NC LRT Advocacy Group forum?

[Stang]

Originally Posted by DizzyEdge

I posted some ideas about the NCLRT in the Public Transit II forum.
Assuming we'd like to keep the NCLRT discussions in one place, should we do it there, or in this NC LRT Advocacy Group forum?

That makes sense - this thread can be for info about meetings, advocacy opportunities. I'll snip my response and post it over into the other thread.

[MalcolmTucker]

Thought I would post this here. It is a rendering of a elevated LRT that is not very tall that has the possibility of being built in Ottawa.

[Tropics]

I think the best way to run a LRT line for the north communities is running along the more open space west and parallel to Deefoot Trail. Build a new station right where the zoo is and have people tranfer onto a train that then runs straight north. Like this.

My own fancy MS paint job.

The first station would be just west of Bottomlands Park, it would run between Fox Hollow golf course and the Elks Golf course (probably elevated here above the river pathway system). Continue on down through what is atm fairly easy to remove industrial land just east of Edmonton Trail as you pass 32nd, past Laycock Park and on towards the north ending at Country Hills Blvd where their is a huge piece of land where the driving range and mini-putt is that could be a massive Park N' Go.

This route gives you not only the least amount of disturbance of communities but it is the only way to get a North route that has enough land for building parking facilities for the LRT stops on a north route and those are absolutely required because no matter where you put the thing it is not going to be walking distance for most people. Park N' Go at stops is crucial and bombing up center street or 14th you simply have no chance of getting the land requirements for parking even if you can build the tracks and stations.

You also get some key stops at the Science Centre, the second city golf course that can be reached via LRT, one of the major pieces of land the tracks would go through/pass is atm a Calgary Transit bus storage center. It would be by far the cheapest route and have alot of positives with parking and alot of the potential stops while given very fast access to the Park N' Go for everyone in the North central part of the city who can access the stops via major feeder roads like Beddington Trail, 64th Ave, McKnight, Country Hills, and 16th.

[DizzyEdge]

Who would jump in their to just drive 5-10 mins to one of those stations, then have to park, then have to get to the platform, when most could just they could walk 5-15 mins to the 301 on Centre though?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Tropics

I think the best way to run a LRT line for the north communities is running along the more open space west and parallel to Deefoot Trail. Build a new station right where the zoo is and have people tranfer onto a train that then runs straight north. Like this.

This is pretty much exactly the route that Calgary Transit had proposed earlier and has now soundly rejected. The Transit thread is full of pages worth of debate on this issue. Personally, I think this is a terrible route, but Policy Wonk would agree with you.

[DizzyEdge]

I believe Policy Wonk would agree simply because he feels the ridership of the southern communities would not pay for the high expense of putting the line through established communities.

In my personal option: 1) he may be right, the expense up a centre street-ish alignment may not be justified with the extra ridership 2) if it's put up the nose creek valley stations south of Beddington Trail will be only lightly utilized 3) a centre street alignment although costly may be the 'right' way go about it and be appreciated in the future (similar to how the sunnyside, sait/acad, lions park, banff trail would be appreciated rather than if the ctrain had headed straight to crowchild and started at U of C).

What it comes down to is centre street is better, but is it worth it? until we have a cost analysis I can't say.

[You Need A Thneed]

Transferring all the people onto the already full NE line doesn't work. Interlining with the NE line limits growth on both lines, and provides way too much capacity to the West line, meaning that operating costs are more than they need to be. The only way to build the line there without using one of those options is to build a completely separate right of Way into downtown, which could cost $500M+. If you are going to spend that money, why not build it as an operational extension of the then existing SE line. It may still cost a bit more, but will be much more useful. Even if the trains have to travel slower, travel times to downtown would be about the same, as the line would be something like 2-4 kms shorter.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

Transferring all the people onto the already full NE line doesn't work. Interlining with the NE line limits growth on both lines, and provides way too much capacity to the West line, meaning that operating costs are more than they need to be. The only way to build the line there without using one of those options is to build a completely separate right of Way into downtown, which could cost $500M+. If you are going to spend that money, why not build it as an operational extension of the then existing SE line. It may still cost a bit more, but will be much more useful. Even if the trains have to travel slower, travel times to downtown would be about the same, as the line would be something like 2-4 kms shorter.

It could cross river into Inglewood and interline with SE line into downtown

[andasen]

Originally Posted by Doug

It could cross river into Inglewood and interline with SE line into downtown

That doesn't solve the long term capacity issue just punts it farther into the future. Instead of limiting the NE line's capacity you limit the south east's instead. Though with that I'm kinda counting my chickens before they hatch :shrug

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by andasen

That doesn't solve the long term capacity issue just punts it farther into the future. Instead of limiting the NE line's capacity you limit the south east's instead. Though with that I'm kinda counting my chickens before they hatch :shrug

Yup. Also it adds another couple of minutes onto the travel time downtown.

[Blue_Cypress]

Originally Posted by Tropics

I think the best way to run a LRT line for the north communities is running along the more open space west and parallel to Deefoot Trail. Build a new station right where the zoo is and have people tranfer onto a train that then runs straight north. Like this.

My own fancy MS paint job.

This is the worst possible outcome. Even building nothing at all would be better. The only good reason to build something like this would be a commuter system, to bring people in from Airdrie. Even that is still a terrible idea, because you want the terminus to be in the middle of another line which would introduce a massive difficulty in balancing capacity across that leg of the system, and you illustrate many stations in the middle of nowhere, in the midst of undevelopable land far from any sign of density, where the only effect they will have on the system is to act as a series of speed bumps. I cannot remember seeing a more thoroughly mis-thought idea since it was soundly rejected as an option some years ago. Utter blue sky nonsense.

[Chadillaccc]

Centre Street from Beddington heights is the best option for the north central line... then just continue it through downtown on Centre Street and have it become the southeast line just as the other lines do NE to W, and NW to S.

[artvandelay]

It depends if we as a city want to continue to build infrastructure with a small town mentality, or take a proactive approach and construct something that resembles a proper metro line.

Also, what idiot planner decided to end Center street at Beddington Trail only to have it continue on as Harvest Hills Blvd? Now there is a missing link in the grid that will be impossible to correct without purchasing a whole whack of houses on the portion of Center that turns into a residential side street.

[kw5150]

"like"

Originally Posted by artvandelay

It depends if we as a city want to continue to build infrastructure with a small town mentality, or take a proactive approach and construct something that resembles a proper metro line.

Also, what idiot planner decided to end Center street at Beddington Trail only to have it continue on as Harvest Hills Blvd? Now there is a missing link in the grid that will be impossible to correct without purchasing a whole whack of houses on the portion of Center that turns into a residential side street.