Toronto seizes 2nd spot in annual ranking of cities..

[The_Architect]

I wonder how many top 10 lists Toronto has to make before habfanman keels over and dies of a brain aneurysm..

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by Ramako

I could produce countless lists, reports and studies from various organizations, commercial or otherwise, that rate Toronto and/or Canada very highly in terms of health care, education, pollution (not counting Alberta), crime, wealth, stability, opportunity, livability and much more.

You can produce vague anecdotes.

If you want to believe that Toronto and/or Canada is a shithole, that's fine. It's not worth my time to argue with ignorance.

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably. Just look at you clowns, instead of saying "Hey, there's a better way to do something? We should emulate that!" You google "other country's fails" and say "Hey, they're failing in that area too so we're ok!"

So typical of Canada these days. Just wait until we become the google go to of "other country's fails". That'll be a proud day.

[Metro-One]

Funny thing is if anything infrastructure is getting better here on the west coast.
In the last 5 years and in the coming years we have had countless major bridges replaced (plus many new ones built), highways widened and upgraded, multi-billion dollar port expansions and upgrades, BC hydro has just began a multi-billion dollar project to upgrade and replace many of our aging dams (the one about 15km from where I live is getting 700 million spent on it alone), and even skytrain has more than doubled in length since 2000.

Sure, things are not perfect, and there are many aspects that need improvement, but in all honesty, 5 years from now infrastructure in BC will be the best it has ever been on many fronts.

(awaiting Habfanman's reply where he will equate BC to the asshole of the earth...)

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

I wonder how many top 10 lists Toronto has to make before habfanman keels over and dies of a brain aneurysm..

Yeah, Toronto excels at making banker's "fed some numbers into the computer and even though we've never set foot there we figure it's top 10" kinda lists. And Torontonians do love their lists. What they can't handle is criticism. Negative articles are conveniently ignored.

And don't even tempt me to to publish top 10 lists from people who have actually set foot in the place that they're "listing".

[habfanman]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Funny thing is if anything infrastructure is getting better here on the west coast.
In the last 5 years and in the coming years we have had countless major bridges replaced (plus many new ones built), highways widened and upgraded, multi-billion dollar port expansions and upgrades, BC hydro has just began a multi-billion dollar project to upgrade and replace many of our aging dams (the one about 15km from where I live is getting 700 million spent on it alone), and even skytrain has more than doubled in length since 2000.

Sure, things are not perfect, and there are many aspects that need improvement, but in all honesty, 5 years from now infrastructure in BC will be the best it has ever been on many fronts.

(awaiting Habfanman's reply where he will equate BC to the asshole of the earth...)

No, that's what we want to hear. Besides that, Vancouver does a fantastic job of street beautification. None of this "If it looks like shit then it's really urban" nonsense.

[big T]

I think reducing Toronto's attractiveness, or lack thereof, to utility poles and subway coins misses the point of this list we're (supposed to be) discussing. But I guess we all know habfanman's bias toward Toronto.

(then again, I also fail to see how replying with a construction site in Paris and a Tokyo side street is expected to refute these claims)

All this being said, I like Toronto. Sad as it may be cities need these lists to promote themselves, so good on them. But within habfanman's rant was the valid point that Toronto still lacks some of the polish of those other cities it is aiming to contend with. If Toronto is going to use lists to raise its profile, consistency demands that it work at pleasing and retaining the sort of people who care about these lists.
I like grit as much as the next forumer, but I doubt that is the case for your average investment banker.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by habfanman

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably.

Almost every rich western country is 'slipping' in comparison to the rest of the world. The reason? It's far less expensive to operate in other parts of the world, for one, and for another, many of those countries have vast amounts of capital, and they don't have to answer to their populations every few years. Do you really want to live there?

The reality is, aside from a few examples (Canada, Germany, Australian, New Zealand, and Northern Europe), the western world is going broke, is having to cut services like crazy, and is in deep deep trouble. There actually isn't much evidence that we're slipping. Even the area that we and Australia were slipping, productivity, is finally turning around. Canada has a diverse economy that is made up of many sectors. Yes, resources are important to us, but they're important to almost every country that isn't going broke in the western world. We're not slipping. In many ways, we're actually gaining on many of our peers. It's the ones coming up from behind that are finally beginning to catch up (and quickly) that are making us look like we're standing still.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by habfanman

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably. Just look at you clowns, instead of saying "Hey, there's a better way to do something? We should emulate that!" You google "other country's fails" and say "Hey, they're failing in that area too so we're ok!"

So typical of Canada these days. Just wait until we become the google go to of "other country's fails". That'll be a proud day.

Comparing ourselves to other cities/countries is a valid way to refute criticism if the criticism itself is based on a comparison. There's a difference between saying something like "Toronto/Canada should really improve x, y, and z to make itself a better place to live" as compared to saying "Berlin, Hamburg and Amsterdam make Toronto look like a steaming heap of developing world shite."

The first statement is constructive and should not be countered by saying other places also need x, y, and z improvements since their need of improvement is irrelevant to Toronto or Canada's need for improvement. However, the second statement is not constructive and only implies that we look bad compared to other places, so if one can demonstrate that Toronto/Canada doesn't generally look bad compared to other places, the original assertion has been defeated.

Just to be clear, I'm not commenting on the accuracy of any of the things you've said. I'm just pointing out that if you want people to accept your criticism as being valid and constructive, you can not phrase it as an attack. If you do, not matter how valid the criticism may be, people will still reject it and deny it since you've said it in a way that makes them defensive. The vast majority of your comments toward Toronto - not only in this thread but in many others - have come across as attacks.rather than criticism, so it isn't surprising that people reject them.

[Waterlooson]

^^Excellent points by a few of you.

I also think there is a big dichotomy between west and east in Canada in so far as infrastructure improvements... Vancouver has been getting massive investments to improve its transportation network... skytrain, bridges, transCanada highway, etc.... both Calgary and Edmonton are building a huge highway ring-road around them, LRT in both cities is expanding... both have airport expansions going on... along with Winnipeg.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Toronto as a representation of what is going on in Canada.... when there is lots going on in the western cities which are going to figure prominently in the future.

[Calgarian]

Canada's biggest city is being recognized as one of the top economic, and most liveable cities in the world and everyone has to hate on it, why? this is a good thing for Toronto and Canada in general. Quit being petty homers and be happy for another city for once. Pathetic!

[kool maudit]

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by habfanman

I'm not arguing that Canada doesn't rate highly in pretty much everything; every rich Western nation rates highly in everything. What I'm saying is that we are slipping, and slipping noticeably.

No, that's not what you were arguing.

You started out by saying that northern Europe makes Toronto "look like a steaming heap of developing world shite." I pointed out that Toronto consistently ranks among the top cities in the world on a variety of livability factors. Now you claim that Toronto does indeed rank highly, but that it doesn't matter because all western cities rank highly (which is simple untrue), and that Toronto is "slipping" (despite the fact that it's been steadily climbing these lists over the last decade).

Keep moving those goal posts. You're doing a great job.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

You might be overstating the problem. The only person in this entire thread who has launched petty (and wholly unprovoked) attacks is habfanman. Perhaps, he's the one with a problem, not Canadians in general. I'd argue that everyone else has been very constructive in their commentary.

[Gerrard]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

because of our... national problem, we can't discuss these things in a decent way. not only can we not give credit where credit is due, but our inability to do that also makes us unable to give realistic, constructive criticism, as that is invariably (and naturally) assumed to be a subtler form of the usual petty attack. the canadian dialogue is really, really problematic. how did we get so angry at each other?

I think sometimes we tend to take praise of one thing (a city, any one) to mean criticism of another (*our* particular city), when nothing of the sort is meant or inferred. We don't have the will or ability to celebrate national achievements. It's our sad inferiority complex gone awry.

[freeweed]

This thread is being successfully trolled, from more than one angle too. It's highly entertaining.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by Waterlooson

^^Excellent points by a few of you.

I also think there is a big dichotomy between west and east in Canada in so far as infrastructure improvements... Vancouver has been getting massive investments to improve its transportation network... skytrain, bridges, transCanada highway, etc.... both Calgary and Edmonton are building a huge highway ring-road around them, LRT in both cities is expanding... both have airport expansions going on... along with Winnipeg.

Too much emphasis is being placed on Toronto as a representation of what is going on in Canada.... when there is lots going on in the western cities which are going to figure prominently in the future.

There's an unbelieveable amount of investment going on in Toronto as well. I don't know why the notion persists that nothing is going on. The Harris days are long gone. Even the overhead wires are slowly being buried.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

There's an unbelieveable amount of investment going on in Toronto as well. I don't know why the notion persists that nothing is going on. The Harris days are long gone. Even the overhead wires are slowly being buried.

Shhhhh... don't let on that streetscape improvements are actually happening at a decent pace. Someone might just have an aneurysm.

[someone123]

I usually find it silly when somebody comments on the sidewalks after visiting a city. It's kind of a triviality, but public realm improvements like that are probably the cheapest way of making Toronto a nicer city. It doesn't have enough good public space.

In Halifax this issue highlights just how pathetic the municipal government is; they can't get it together enough to properly maintain downtown streets that are paying millions in property taxes.

[Andy6]

Did they factor in smell?

Toronto could be a good deal worse. That's how I look at it. It's very much a bottom-up city that's interesting and often quite agreeable at ground level but which is drifting at the meta-level like a Zeppelin that has come unmoored. It's anyone's guess where it's heading. No one's from here so no one cares all that much.

I'm going out for a walk now, here in the 2nd best city on Earth. Lower-ranked cities may now begin to drool enviously.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Did they factor in smell?

Toronto could be a good deal worse. That's how I look at it. It's very much a bottom-up city that's interesting and often quite agreeable at ground level but which is drifting at the meta-level like a Zeppelin that has come unmoored. It's anyone's guess where it's heading. No one's from here so no one cares all that much.

.

I really like the metaphor here.