Calgary Public Transit II

[Policy Wonk]

The main problem is when it happens it might be on short notice and almost certainly during business hours.

[UofC.engineer]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62291568@N02/5673372383/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62291568@N02/5673378527/in/photostream/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/62291568@N02/5673366617/in/photostream/

Looks like they are putting in the platform sections this weekend with a crane.

Sorry, for the one blurry pic.

[magnetite]

So I was just curious about Southland's platform. Now the new part is concrete I believe, however, the north part if I remember is made of bricks. I suppose they are keeping these in place after the station re-opens?

[suburb]

The discussion this morning on CBC Radio - a study this fall on making a horse shoe urban gondola from Brentwood station, through West Campus / Children's Hospital, Foothills Hospital Campus, and then back to either Banff Trail or Lions park. Fantastic idea! Wait times 30 seconds to 1 min, construction potentially 1/5 to 1/10 of LRT, operation costs lower than bus, and you get a gondola ride!

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburb

The discussion this morning on CBC Radio - a study this fall on making a horse shoe urban gondola from Brentwood station, through West Campus / Children's Hospital, Foothills Hospital Campus, and then back to either Banff Trail or Lions park. Fantastic idea! Wait times 30 seconds to 1 min, construction potentially 1/5 to 1/10 of LRT, operation costs lower than bus, and you get a gondola ride!

Questions I have:

1. Speed- what is the travel time between stations?
2. Capacity- How much can each cable car hold?
3. Station location- Where will the stations be located and how will they be accessed?
4. Route design and stations- How will cars unload/load at each station?

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Questions I have:

1. Speed- what is the travel time between stations?
2. Capacity- How much can each cable car hold?
3. Station location- Where will the stations be located and how will they be accessed?
4. Route design and stations- How will cars unload/load at each station?

My recollection of the discussion on radio was that it is still pretty early and that a study was to be launched later this year. That means some of your questions are yet to be addressed (EG specific station location and route, other than stops at Foothills and ACH). They don't even know if it will be Lion's gate or Banff Trail, let alone specific route. They did mention that the range of options was 3-5 kilometers from LRT station back to another LRT station.

There was mention that these would not be huge tram-like gondolas, rather small like something at Lake Louise. Mention was made that some implementations had service every 30 seconds to 1 minute, so that confirms 'small'. From a staffing perspective, they would not have staff on them, rather, there would be an embarking attendant.

I believe cities mentioned where varieties of urban gondolas exist included Caracas, Rio, Portland, Lisbon, and a few other places.

Here are a few links:

"7 most important urban gondola projects"
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/10/22/the-7-most-important-aerial-cable-systems-in-the-world-for-various-reasons/"]http://gondolaproject.com/2010/10/22/the...ystems-in-the-world-for-various-reasons/[/URL]

South American Cities Launch Urban Gondola Systems
http://gondolaproject.com/2010/03/22/medellincaracas-part-5/
http://www.good.is/post/south-america-launches-urban-gondola-systems/
http://www.planetizen.com/node/44559

Connecting downtown Ogden to Webber State University
http://www.ogdenmunicipalward2.com/Current_Projects/UrbanGondola.html

Algeria (Video in German)
http://hstreaming.zdf.de/3sat/veryhigh/101025_seilbahn_nano.mov

Lisbon
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yellowmo/3260907351/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yellowmo/3260676523/ (video)
http://www.sync.co.nz/gallery/v/album_019/DSC02533.JPG.html

Oh - before I forget. One other important tid-bit that was mentioned was that this type of system can be implemented in 1-2 years depending on complexity.

As a side note, in addition to the various points about function, cost and implementation, I think this type of thing would have a 'cool' and branding factor that is hard to put a value on. The fact we're semi-close to the mountains (which would most certainly be visible from the gondola depending on the day) adds to things a pinch. Not a complete parallel, but doing something like this has the added value that things like art and statement architecture bring with them.

[You Need A Thneed]

West LRT
Bus Route Planning
Public Information Sessions

For residents west of Sarcee Trail:
• Wednesday, 2011 June 1 from 5:00 - 8:30 p.m.
Strathcona Community Association 277 Strathcona Dr. S.W. (Upstairs Loft)

For residents east of Sarcee Trail:
• Thursday, 2011 June 9 from 5:00 - 8:30 p.m.
Glenbrook Community Association 3524 - 45 St. S.W. (Main Hall)

For Beltline Residents:
• Thursday, June 16,11 from 5:00-8:30 p.m.
South Calgary Community Association 3130 - 16 St. S.W. (Main Hall)

For Lakeview Residents:
• Thursday, 2011 June 23 from 5:00 - 8:30 p.m.
Lakeview Community Association 6110 – 34 St SW (Main Hall)

Transit staff will be available to answer questions. If you cannot come to the open house, visit www.calgarytransit.com to review the information and to provide comments.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburb

The discussion this morning on CBC Radio - a study this fall on making a horse shoe urban gondola from Brentwood station, through West Campus / Children's Hospital, Foothills Hospital Campus, and then back to either Banff Trail or Lions park. Fantastic idea! Wait times 30 seconds to 1 min, construction potentially 1/5 to 1/10 of LRT, operation costs lower than bus, and you get a gondola ride!

Originally Posted by fusili

Questions I have:

1. Speed- what is the travel time between stations?
2. Capacity- How much can each cable car hold?
3. Station location- Where will the stations be located and how will they be accessed?
4. Route design and stations- How will cars unload/load at each station?

Link to the CBC story http://www.cbc.ca/eyeopener/episode/2011...ola-explored-as-public-transit-solution/

Just as an interm (30 years or so) solution I think it would be lowest cost, highest reward. You would induce more users for sure compared to a bus service. That being said, for the number of users operating costs would be high, and you would need to have a contingency in place for major issues (like when Toronto's Airport people mover broke down for 3 or 4 months!).

Using the same kit as Sunshine, Kicking Horse, and Lake Louise would be smart as there is likely already a spare parts base and a skill base in private sector maintenance. (my impression from riding the first two is they are the same manufacturer. The Louise set up I've never been on, only seen while I rode on other lifts)

I would assume you would have to make all AHS staff be able to ride for free (with AHS covering the subsidy), the same with University students (would need to do some design work to discourage students from using it from LRT to centre of campus, plus maybe add a dedicated UPass top up), and a small fee for others to help cover operating costs.

[You Need A Thneed]

There is an agenda item for a committee meeting at city hall today that requests funding for an express bus to the Airport. No other details than that yet.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I would assume you would have to make all AHS staff be able to ride for free (with AHS covering the subsidy), the same with University students (would need to do some design work to discourage students from using it from LRT to centre of campus, plus maybe add a dedicated UPass top up), and a small fee for others to help cover operating costs.

Why all this complication? It is meant as an extension of the existing public transit system. It is like connecting MRU better with BRT or what have you. why would you charge people that need to get to such larger hubs an extra fee? There are over 6,000 parking stalls at the Foothills Campus, which includes a substantial contingent that are university (it is not just the hospital, but also the health sciences campus). That's a lot of cars. The Children's Hospital is also a large installation, and most people are already aware of the substantive nature of the university. That's a lot of people, and I think we're also not considering the number of people who might use transit to visit friends and relatives that have been admitted.

[Offside_Ref]

Hey everyone, I got a chance to go on a tour of the West LRT on Saturday with the UofC chapter of the Institute of Transportation Engineers and took a few pictures. I know these pictures should go in the West LRT thread, but I'll post them here too for your interest.

Connection to Downtown:


Looking towards downtown:


Overtop of CN tracks:


Sunalta Station from overtop of 14th Street:


14th Street (South View):


14th Street (North View):


West towards Sunalta:


Sunalta Station:


South view from Sunalta:


Downtown from Sunalta:


Last elevated section being installed:


45th Street Station:


Sarcee - 17th Ave Interchange:


Westbrook Station:


Thanks a bunch to SNC-Lavalin and their divisions for leading us on the tour.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburb

Why all this complication? It is meant as an extension of the existing public transit system. It is like connecting MRU better with BRT or what have you. why would you charge people that need to get to such larger hubs an extra fee? There are over 6,000 parking stalls at the Foothills Campus, which includes a substantial contingent that are university (it is not just the hospital, but also the health sciences campus). That's a lot of cars. The Children's Hospital is also a large installation, and most people are already aware of the substantive nature of the university. That's a lot of people, and I think we're also not considering the number of people who might use transit to visit friends and relatives that have been admitted.

Extra fee because it will have disproprotionately high operating costs per user and since most trips will be connections, so in the end would necessitate a subsidy increase to maintain other existing services. Also that requiring Calgary Transit fares for transfers between the hospitals defeats the purpose and would lead to under utilization (amongst staff as the main target)

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good - can always get rid of extra fares later, but would be hard to get approval for spending capital on an expansion that hikes operating costs.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Extra fee because it will have disproprotionately high operating costs per user.

Did you listen to the eye opener interview? They stated it was not only cheaper and quicker to put in, it was also cheaper (than regular buses) to operate as they only require attendants at the loading / unloading points.

Do you have actual data that contradicts the statements made by the people who were being interviewed?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by suburb

Did you listen to the eye opener interview? They stated it was not only cheaper and quicker to put in, it was also cheaper (than regular buses) to operate as they only require attendants at the loading / unloading points.

Do you have actual data that contradicts the statements made by the people who were being interviewed?

Exactly. 5 stations (about) would only require 5 operators. Not one operator per bus or train. Operation costs would probably be substantially lower (assuming power to operate the gondola is equivalent to the cost of fuel to drive a bus).

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Exactly. 5 stations (about) would only require 5 operators. Not one operator per bus or train. Operation costs would probably be substantially lower (assuming power to operate the gondola is equivalent to the cost of fuel to drive a bus).

It would also be electric, meaning that it would be zero emissions, like the CTrain. I can't see the fuel/electricity cost being significantly different than buses, the question I would have is, what is the maintenance cost differences?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by suburb

Did you listen to the eye opener interview? They stated it was not only cheaper and quicker to put in, it was also cheaper (than regular buses) to operate as they only require attendants at the loading / unloading points.

Do you have actual data that contradicts the statements made by the people who were being interviewed?

5 operators at all times, minimum. Specialty training required etc. 5 operators at all times is a ton of bus capacity. A crazy amount. Cheaper and quicker only compared to some sort of rail service. Plus I doubt local residents would be very happy about constantly moving public transport with sight lines into their back yards.

It is more expensive than bus service because it provides much more service than would otherwise be provided, and that costs money. If you were going to provide that service if you didn't build the gondola system that would be different. But we don't. And I doubt we ever would.

Comparing something to an ultimate implementation of a automated people mover will likely show gondolas is cheaper, but we would never build a people mover so the comparison is pointless.

Originally Posted by You Need A Thneed

It would also be electric, meaning that it would be zero emissions, like the CTrain. I can't see the fuel/electricity cost being significantly different than buses, the question I would have is, what is the maintenance cost differences?

Zero local emissions.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Exactly. 5 stations (about) would only require 5 operators. Not one operator per bus or train. Operation costs would probably be substantially lower (assuming power to operate the gondola is equivalent to the cost of fuel to drive a bus).

I doubt five buses are continually prowling around serving the local destinations on this route (Lions--> Foothills--> Childrens'--> University Main Campus --> Brentwood) that could be removed if a service such as proposed exist. It is only cheaper it you are replacing something.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Zero local emissions.

If CT operates it, then I would assume they would buy wind power like they do for the LRT - then it would be zero emission.

That's what I was thinking with my first post, anyway.

[frinkprof]

Telvent to supply Calgary smart card-based system


Telvent, a real-time IT solutions and information provider for a sustainable world, announced it has been selected by the city of Calgary to implement a contactless smart card based electronic fare collection (EFC) system for Calgary Transit.

When the project is completed, Calgary Transit will provide to over 94 million passengers per year a more convenient method to pay for fares. The new contactless EFC system will allow Calgary Transit to obtain information from the field fare collection equipment, customize fare policy, and offer more flexible methods of payment.

[...]

Link to rest of article

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

5 operators at all times, minimum. Specialty training required etc. 5 operators at all times is a ton of bus capacity. A crazy amount. Cheaper and quicker only compared to some sort of rail service. Plus I doubt local residents would be very happy about constantly moving public transport with sight lines into their back yards.

It is more expensive than bus service because it provides much more service than would otherwise be provided, and that costs money. If you were going to provide that service if you didn't build the gondola system that would be different. But we don't. And I doubt we ever would.

Comparing something to an ultimate implementation of a automated people mover will likely show gondolas is cheaper, but we would never build a people mover so the comparison is pointless.



Zero local emissions.



I doubt five buses are continually prowling around serving the local destinations on this route (Lions--> Foothills--> Childrens'--> University Main Campus --> Brentwood) that could be removed if a service such as proposed exist. It is only cheaper it you are replacing something.

Replied to in the Gondola thread here:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=5265846#post5265846

[fusili]

Well, I am going to be on Alberta Primetime tonight talking about the Gondola Proposal. So keep the discussion going, it gives me a lot more talking points!!! I'll post the air time when I know later.