Philadelphia Transportation Thread

[pwp]

April 27, 2011
By Kellie Patrick Gates
For PlanPhilly

If Philadelphia wants to extend the subway line to the Navy Yard, as called for in the city-wide portion of the Philadelphia2035 comprehensive plan, residential development needs to be part of the mix, said Byron Comati, SEPTA's director of strategic planning and analysis.

http://planphilly.com/if-subway-reach-navy-yard-septa-planner-says-people-will-need-live-there

[Phil_North]

Further into the article it says:

...
“Higher density will provide more steam for a subway extension,” Comati said. “Higher density means residential as well as employment.”
...
article link

If this is the case, then wouldn't an extension into Northeast Philly be more warranted? 500 - 750 million is a lot for a 1.5 mile extension to the Navy yard. Any Navy yard extension should also include an additional stop closer to the sports complex.

[volguus zildrohar]

The numbers would be good for the Roosevelt Blvd extension, Phil, but that costs a lot more than it seems anyone is going to spend right now. The cost of a Roosevelt Blvd subway would be on par with New York's Second Avenue line...we won't be getting that (although the choice was once up to Mayor Rizzo).

The idea of a station in The Sports Complex proper is good but probably not as appealing to the powers that be as the cheaper alternative of a light rail station there as part of the Waterfront Line and either idea is contingent upon a more regular use for the area beyond sporting events and concerts - it would have to be an everyday-use extension.

[josef]

Man, all I want is a PATCO extension to 30th Street... I think that would help tie regional transport together even more. But that wasn't even one of the Philly alternatives :/

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

The numbers would be good for the Roosevelt Blvd extension, Phil, but that costs a lot more than it seems anyone is going to spend right now. The cost of a Roosevelt Blvd subway would be on par with New York's Second Avenue line...we won't be getting that (although the choice was once up to Mayor Rizzo).

What about a Roosevelt Blvd elevated? Or you could build it in an open cut. Both options would save quite a bit of money.

[volguus zildrohar]

EIS would be on order in either case and though the cost is somewhat less than tunneling community pressure can come into play when you're talking about exposed infrastructure. Subway construction is only obstrusive during construction...but nobody wants to live under an el. Open cut - probably still not so much.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

EIS would be on order in either case and though the cost is somewhat less than tunneling community pressure can come into play when you're talking about exposed infrastructure. Subway construction is only obstrusive during construction...but nobody wants to live under an el. Open cut - probably still not so much.

You're right. The beauty of the blvd, with its trees in the median and neatly cut grass in parts would be disturbed by an el and totally destroyed by an open cut. A true subway, via a tunnel boring machine as opposed to Broad Street's cut and cover method would probably draw the least opposition. And because the (originally) proposed route would be running under the blvd as opposed to Castor, Frankford or some other more "intimate" avenue.

[volguus zildrohar]

TBM would probably encounter some problems along The Boulevard starting with the Logan Triangle and getting under the water table at Frankford (?) Creek. Station access has always been something that bothered me about the route. It's a wide big street - access tunnels from the sidewalks to the mezzanines/station levels would be quite long unless the route simply ran along each side of Roosevelt.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

TBM would probably encounter some problems along The Boulevard starting with the Logan Triangle and getting under the water table at Frankford (?) Creek. Station access has always been something that bothered me about the route. It's a wide big street - access tunnels from the sidewalks to the mezzanines/station levels would be quite long unless the route simply ran along each side of Roosevelt.

I too, thought about water table issue. I did a little research on TBMs and the soil in Philadelphia. The soil in NE Philly is generally soft as opposed to the rock hard granite that makes up Manhattan. But TBMs can cut through soft soil and water encountered in the water table. The tunnel could even be dug at a deeper level under such areas as the Wingohocking creek that caused the collapse of the southern half of the Logan neighborhood. There are several maps available of the many creeks that once ran through Philadelphia, including several that cut through present day Center City. The problem with the Wingohocking creek is that east of Broad street, it was simply filled in. West of Broad street, the creek runs through a sewer pipe under Belfield avenue.

A subway tunnel under the Roosevelt blvd could tunnel underneath the Wingohocking, Frankford and Pennypack creeks. The mezzanines would be unusually wide at the ends of the stations, or station entrances could be placed at the medians where appropriate lights/crosswalks exist for pedestrians. Running the route along each side of the blvd for the sake of providing entrances on each side would require two separate tunnels, one along each side of the blvd to be built.

[volguus zildrohar]

Originally Posted by Phil_North

Running the route along each side of the blvd for the sake of providing entrances on each side would require two separate tunnels, one along each side of the blvd to be built.

And that does seem excessive. I wonder how the mezzanine situation is under Queens Blvd in New York which is also a wide Roosevelt-like thoroughfare. The only issue with placing entrances at the medians is accessibility. Crossing The Boulevard - even with traffic calming measures - is a psychological obstacle and becomes a practical one when you think about things like where do people connecting from buses crossing The Boulevard go.

[waltlantz]

Route 1 Orange Line route is a damned if you do damned if you don't situation if you ask me.

There is demographic change in the Northeast, could fan socio-economic-racial conflict. The building of the rail extention could be seen as "letting in the riff-raff".

Also people did point out the obstruction and taking out of trees. Then of course you got to go underground but I KNOW Philly has neither the funds or political will for that.

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by volguus zildrohar

And that does seem excessive. I wonder how the mezzanine situation is under Queens Blvd in New York which is also a wide Roosevelt-like thoroughfare.

Here are a few pictures from www.nycsubway.org of the entrances and mezzanines of the Queens Blvd Line. The last shot is not directly under Queens blvd, but shows an entrance on a portion of sidewalk separating the traffic lanes. Most of the mezzanine pictures available show very large mezzanines, ones that possibly expand the width of the street.

Photo Copyright 2007 Bill E.
www.nycsubway.org

Photo Copyright 2000 Wayne J. Whitehorne
www.nycsubway.org

Photo Copyright 2006 Brian Weinberg
www.nycsubway.org

[Phil_North]

Originally Posted by waltlantz

There is demographic change in the Northeast, could fan socio-economic-racial conflict. The building of the rail extention could be seen as "letting in the riff-raff".

In the minds of many, the so-called "riff-raff" is already there. But people do not take public transportation to go commit crimes. Just as the situation in Oxford Circle and adjoining areas cannot be blamed on transportation, future transportation improvements will not increase crime.

Because of the changing population, there is a good chance that many of the newcomers to the NE would like an easier and faster way of public transportation in the NE. Even if the first leg ran just to Adams avenue as was planned back in the 1960's, I believe most would be in favor of it. I think a second phase to Oxford avenue would also be largely unopposed. Once you get to Cottman avenue and areas further, then I could see some apprehension by the residents to accept it. But even an extension just to Oxford Avenue would alleviate some crowding on the el and the buses transporting commuters to FTC every day. There may even be a slight drop in traffic on the blvd.

[thenbagis]

The second picture reminds me of the concourse under south broad.

[hammersklavier]

Transit access will be methinks one of the major drivers of growth as the economy improves. Although it's getting better...the New Urbanist blog chatter (like this set) is predicting a massive shift in the real estate market--the emergence of a market where TOD is most desirable and second-generation suburbia is least desirable.

If that's the case, then good transportation planning will be the primary growth driver in the foreseeable future.

Oh, and in a recent Plan Philly article a SEPTA planner says the Navy Yard needs residents for a subway extension. I wonder if she's read the Navy Yard master plan...the document calls for exactly that, in the form of several loft conversions and a whole neighborhood (possibly two) of rowhome development.

[Beta_Magellan]

It sounds to me, then, like the such an expansion would be, to some degree, speculative—just because the master plan calls for all that housing doesn’t mean it will actually happen.

[hammersklavier]

It's a chicken and egg problem. People work down there, but nobody lives there (yet), and if we wait till people live there we'll probably get some NIMBYs, despite the fact the whole thing was master-planned on a (probably) multi-generational timeline.

It's only about a mile, which makes it relatively cheap to do. But somehow I think that the extension will only be realized when the residential development starts happening, and so far there doesn't seem to even be any marketing for it.

[Phil_North]

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/121511969.html

Amtrak was awarded $450 million on Monday for major improvements that will make Philadelphia-to-New-York trains the fastest in the country.

The money was part of $2 billion for high-speed rail projects awarded Monday by the U.S. Department of Transportation, after the new governor of Florida rejected the money earlier this year. In addition to the Amtrak funding, $345 million was awarded to Northeastern states for projects designed to speed travel in the heavily traveled Boston-to-Washington corridor.

And Pennsylvania got $40 million to rebuild a rail intersection on the Philadelphia-to-Harrisburg Keystone Corridor, to reduce travel time and improve reliability there.

The $450 million for the Philadelphia-to-New-York stretch will pay for signal and track upgrages, improved power substations and overhead wire systems to increase capacity and boost speeds on a 24-mile section between Morrisville, Pa., and New Bunswick, N.J.

The changes would allow Acela Express trains to go as fast as 160 miles per hour on that stretch, up from the current top speed of 135 miles per hour. That would surpass the 150 mile-per-hour top speed that Acela trains now reach on a small section of the corridor between New York and Boston.

The $450 million project, which will also improve reliability for non-Acela trains and reconfigure track switches at the western entrance to New York's Penn Station to ease congestion there, is slated to be completed by September 2017, Amtrak said.

Full article at http://www.philly.com/philly/news/121511969.html

[volguus zildrohar]

Another in the growing line of 'what-if's for our subway, our own Steve Stofka has put forth one idea in his Crossing The Lines blog, an Andorra-Pennsport line.

[pwp]

SEPTA to launch TransitView Next Week

Next week SEPTA is expected to launch its much-anticipated TransitView, an online tool that will provide real-time updates on buses.

http://www.metro.us/philadelphia/blog/post/872979--septa-to-launch-transitview-next-week