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  #721  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 5:23 PM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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SFPR is coming. Surely this is the long-awaited east-west artery whose absence is being lamented in the past dozen posts.

If 104th really cannot take rapid transit, then why not route the rapid transit along a parallel road? There are no focal stops along 104th that really need transit, until one reaches Guildford, are there?
     
     
  #722  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 6:40 PM
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Not at all, actually this is why I'm thinking routing on 108th might be a good idea, there is much more residential to serve. Being rapid transit, it shouldn't be much slower than the direct route.

But then a whole bunch of people here would argue that 104th is a better residential & commercial node.... I'm seriously quite sure though that any such development would be more focused and closer towards the actual centres of Whalley & Guildford, not so much along the route.

I certainly don't enjoy overcrowded buses travelling between Guildford & Whalley. But I certainly won't enjoy overcrowded trains that are as not really beneficially faster than the buses, as well as sitting in there watching a straight single-file line of traffic gridlocked along the entire stretch of 104th go by. With the Guildford Mall expansion, new developments, and RapidBus routes from Coquitlam & Langley, traffic through Guildford is only going to increase further and the mess we have now will only become worse... I'm really not sure about a separate LRT being able to handle this.

In addition, is LRT really cheaper at all? You would have to build an entire new depot & control base for the trains and there would be significantly more land expropriation involved; with SkyTrain, it may cost somewhat more to build right away depending on how it is built, but the trains can use existing depots, it will be significantly cheaper to maintain in the long-term, being a driverless system, and the ROW doesn't nearly have to be as wide resulting in much less land expropriation cost.
     
     
  #723  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 7:46 PM
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The reason I said skytrain down Fraser wasn't because I thought it was best but because I think it is the only route that would happen. Current council and mayor have stated quite surely that they don't want skytrain to Newton or Guildford and that in their opinion the ONLY purpose of skytrain is as a backbone regional commuter line. So the only way it makes sense to expand skyytrain would be to either connect it to Langley directly or extend it far enough so that it can terminate in a more reasonable place.

I think down Fraser is all that will ever happen thus my map. Again your opinion can differ but try not to be asses and say WOW THAT IS DUMB because it just makes you look like an idiot.
     
     
  #724  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 7:49 PM
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Also I like some of the ideas about 108th. It is an often forgotten corridor and could use a boost.
     
     
  #725  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 8:26 PM
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I can't see SkyTrain to Langley ever happening. Do you realize how far it is to build along Fraser Hwy to Langley? It would nearly double Expo Line's length.

And to what end? Crossing a large swath of ALR land, serving a small portion of Fleetwood and the 23,000 people living in Langley City, while missing the populations of Cloverdale and Langley Township entirely? The Fraser Hwy route doesn't make sense to me.

Yes, Fleetwood and Langley City will grow, but I'd bet money that Newton and South Surrey/White Rock will grow faster.

Langley's on the very edge of the region, and should be way down the priority list of places to connect by rapid transit. We should be encouraging TOD to occur in Surrey itself, if we must encourage it anywhere in the SoF.
     
     
  #726  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
Not at all, actually this is why I'm thinking routing on 108th might be a good idea, there is much more residential to serve. Being rapid transit, it shouldn't be much slower than the direct route.

But then a whole bunch of people here would argue that 104th is a better residential & commercial node.... I'm seriously quite sure though that any such development would be more focused and closer towards the actual centres of Whalley & Guildford, not so much along the route.

I certainly don't enjoy overcrowded buses travelling between Guildford & Whalley. But I certainly won't enjoy overcrowded trains that are as not really beneficially faster than the buses, as well as sitting in there watching a straight single-file line of traffic gridlocked along the entire stretch of 104th go by. With the Guildford Mall expansion, new developments, and RapidBus routes from Coquitlam & Langley, traffic through Guildford is only going to increase further and the mess we have now will only become worse... I'm really not sure about a separate LRT being able to handle this.

In addition, is LRT really cheaper at all? You would have to build an entire new depot & control base for the trains and there would be significantly more land expropriation involved; with SkyTrain, it may cost somewhat more to build right away depending on how it is built, but the trains can use existing depots, it will be significantly cheaper to maintain in the long-term, being a driverless system, and the ROW doesn't nearly have to be as wide resulting in much less land expropriation cost.
I really dont think 108 has more people near it then 104. 104 has way more apartments near it. as for nodes 144th and 148th both make for stop areas in guildford. whalley blvd and 140th in central would both be good stops too
     
     
  #727  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 10:42 PM
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I'm talking about residential on a general scale, not just apartments. Any apartments closer to 104th are also closer to 148th, in which case... only two blocks to that Skytrain Station which, if the bus loop plans remain, would be located closer to 150th & 104th. Two blocks. No issue.

I can see why building full Skytrain to langley would be impractical due to length, cost, capacity, and communities served. However, on shorter, busier routes such as Newton-Whalley-Guildford... You could do this route without having to buy that many more Bombardier trains and you can use existing depots/yards, and in the end it would still be somewhat more effective than the LRT. The only real cost would be building the elevated guideways... but they are narrow and as a result not much land expropriation would be necessary. You could even build it at grade along the median of King George on those long stretches without intersections, to save cost. Meanwhile, with an LRT, you would have to start completely anew with new trains, a depot, etc. etc. etc. and that would be very expensive. Where the city could actually use a proper RRT connection, it may definitely be more cost effective and practical and serve the entire city better by promoting and allowing for quick and painless centre-centre movement. Not that we should exclude LRT plans, I think they suit very well other certain routes i.e. to South Surrey & White Rock.

Langley's already getting a big rapid transit upgrade coming it's way and it's called the Highway 1 RapidBus. This and proper connections to Langley City Centre would probably serve Langley very well. However, it will put significantly more traffic through Guildford towards Surrey Central, and I'm also predicting that if the RapidBus is popular it would result in a decrease in 502 and 320/Langley ridership. The RapidBus is definitely going to be speedy, but I wouldn't like the idea of getting off of the RapidBus and getting on an LRT train to Whalley that takes the same time to run half the distance. Quite the bottleneck.

A Newton-Whalley-Guildford RRT would be perfect, it would keep the flow smooth and allow both Surrey & Langley & etc. travellers faster and reliable access to areas of Surrey that may be visited often, such as the Guildford Mall post-expansion - something that more people from both Surrey and the rest of the metro will actually want to come to. Such a line would succeed at complementing and would very highly promote inter-city movement via transit. If LRT were introduced... I'm pretty sure a lot of people travelling Guildford-Newton would abandon the idea of using the LRT via Whalley, in favour of driving a car down the 152nd & 72nd - because it's just as fast, perhaps faster. The only improved movement you're promoting with LRT is from these centres to, well, Whalley... not from these centres to other centres. It doesn't promote the sense of Surrey actually being a big city, and that there is a need to be able to traverse these long distances quickly.

Last edited by xd_1771; Apr 29, 2011 at 10:58 PM.
     
     
  #728  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 10:59 PM
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I think the future of transit in Surrey comes down to the Surrey people want to create. There are 2 paths, each with their own pros and cons.

1) Skytrain.

Skytrain, in Metro Vancouver is primarily a regional transit system. It is designed to (and does) connect separate town centers and provide connections between them so that residents in one center can take advantage of amenities in another, all the while providing a high speed commuter link to Downtown Vancouver (the greatest amenity of them all). At the town centers, bus routes converge and provide local connections for people and businesses not located in the centers. This allows much of the population throughout Vancouver, Richmond, Burnaby, New West, Coquitlam and Surrey to have a short bus ride to the transportation backbone that can carry them great distances.

What this does do however is create nodes around which these centers grow. In practice, most of the town centers are really residences for people who work downtown. The Skytrain offers them a rapid transportation method downtown. Around most town centers, only locally based service businesses take hold, and most town centers do not develop their own economy with local high paying jobs.

There is nothing wrong with that, and is in fact quite sustainable. It allows people who do not have the opportunity or the finances to live close to where they work the ability to chose where they live, and make longer commutes without sacrificing that much time. But what it does do is maintain regional focus on the major centers: Downtown, Richmond, Metrotown.

Surrey City Center is growing, but right now it is still the place where Skytrain leaves.

If it is extended to Guildford, Guildford will be the end of the line. The Skytrain will take people away from Guildford and bring them East. Most residents moving into the area after Skytrain will be doing so to take advantage of the high speed link to places other than Guildford. People who currently bus to City Center for work will be replaced by wealthier residents who Skytrain into Burnaby and Vancouver.

@XD, the Guildford mall will not be a regional destination, ever. People will not come from any further than King George. Why would most people not just take an extra 10 minute ride to Metrotown, or even downtown? And most of the mall's current patrons, people to the South and East, won't be getting there by Skytrain if it is built. They would still have to drive or bus to the mall. The mall might see an increase in traffic from people passing through, but malls are typically not major regional destinations, unless the mall is a one of a kind. While you see Skytrain bringing in people to Guildford Mall, I see Skytrain taking far more people away, to better places.

So, if Surrey wants to make (or keep) Guildford a part of town where people leave in the morning to head to Downtown Vancouver and come back in the evening, then Skytrain is the best choice. It will offer commuters leaving Surrey the best transportation possible.


2) LRT.

LRT can create a different Guildford neighborhood. By not being connected to the Regional backbone, Guildford can be more Surrey focused. Instead of being a Vancouver Suburb, it can be a Surrey City Center Suburb.

LRT on 104 Ave, with more stops than Skytrain, can create a vibrant community the length of the road where none exists. 104 ave right now is so desolate, that they can't even find a tenant for the 104 Ave center, and it still sits empty. Most of the road is lined with dilapidated buildings and many empty and under used lots. Skytrain would not solve this. At best, there might be 1 other station between King George and Guildford, and this might contribute to some growth, but most of the street, especially the western sections, would say the same.

LRT can create an enticing business environment where many of the existing buildings are replaced by higher density dwellings and more businesses. The more frequent LRT stops will spread out the population instead of concentrating it at the mall, making more walkable neighborhoods reducing dependency on the automobile to get regular chores done.

The LRT will bring these residents fairly quickly to downtown Surrey. This can create critical demand for more office space in the city's center and create more then just residential growth, but contribute to Surrey's economy and business tax base. From the City Center, more LRT lines can be built, creating a funnel bringing in people from all over the city to their own downtown.

The LRT will also serve the mall, bringing in residents from more stations along 104 Ave. Whereas a Skytrain might only pick up people at 144 St. Skytrain will serve more people leaving Guildford going to Vancouver while LRT will serve more population along the line, giving them equal cost (in time) between going to the mall or elsewhere, making their choice of going to the mall that much higher.

People who do work outside the city will still have access to Skytrain, like they do now. But the LRTs will be able to handle larger numbers of commuters and offer greater reliability and speed over the buses they replace. This will still drive up demand for Skytrain into Vancouver, but the LRT will create a positive business environment at Surrey City Center.



The distance between Guildford and City Center on 104 Ave is not that great. The 501 is scheduled to make that trip in about 10 minutes. An LRT with dedicated lanes and favorable signalling can probably make or beat that. So if you were to shave off a minute or two with Skytrain, I don't see what the advantage is. You reduce the need to Transfer to Skytrain, but again, that facilitates travelers leaving Surrey. If that is what you want to create, then Skytrain is the best choice.

But if you want to grow the City Center and make Surrey more self sufficient then LRT deserves a credible analysis. The city is currently large and spread out, with multiple smaller town centers, not all nicely aligned along a central, high demand route. Extending Skytrain to each of these is not economically feasible and still maintains Surrey's Vancouver Centric position.

However, it does sacrifice regional mobility at the hands of creating better communities. Which is why a third alternative will most likely be considered.


3) Both.

Skytrain only becomes advantageous to the City of Surrey's economy if it brings in people from further away. The distance between Guildford and City center is so short, there is hardly a difference between them. Be it Skytrain or LRT, if you are going from the Mall to the Mall, either would take about the same time.

But Skytrain has it's advantages when bringing in people from further away. Which is why many advocate its use on the Fraser Highway. Fleetwood is further from City Center than both Guildford and Newton (almost as far as both of them combined). The time savings there would be far more noticeable for travel to City Center.

It also brings the Regional Transportation backbone closer to far more people. While the Guildford Skytrain would be great at serving about 50,000 people (who already have amazing access to Highway 1 and soon to be rapid bus for their regional transit needs) heading towards Fleetwood brings Skytrain closer to the majority of people in East Surrey (East Newton, Fleetwood and Guildford, a population of almost 100,000 while also being a much shorter bus trip in from Cloverdale and Langley).

Extending further to Langley bridges the gap between Langley City Center and Surrey City Center, creating a SOF regional backbone. Most of the SOF population would be a 10 minute or less bus or LRT ride away regional transit. While that is not needed soon, SOF is becoming more densely populated and internally focused. SoF will one day require a backbone that locally focused LRT and frequent buses can bring people to for their longer trips. One day, commerce and travel between Langley City and Surrey will be far more important than it is today, and when that time comes, Skytrain to Langley will be critical to the growth and sustainability of the SoF community.

I can see a future where Skytrain provides a regional backbone connection between Downtown Surrey, and Downtown Langley, and links them to the larger regional network. And LRT is used to feed all those major centers, with lines operating on 104, King George, 200 St, and maybe even streets in between, connecting the smaller, more spread out town centers with the city centers.
     
     
  #729  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 11:10 PM
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Hence my proposal for a separate Newton-Whalley-Guildford Line. You are absolutely right about simply extending the expo line to Guildford being the end of the line, and not really doing anything except promoting movement to downtown Vancouver and not really doing anything for Surrey.

Instead of putting downtown Vancouver into the main perspective, put Whalley as downtown Surrey into perspective. A Newton-Whalley-Guildford Line would do the same thing as you said, while highly promoting and succeeding in enticing inter-Surrey movement, still promoting Whalley as the centre of the city at the centre of the line, and allowing for better movement between the other two centres as well. It would also probably better attract new riders due to being completely separated from the roads - a lot of people living in Surrey hate the roads.

What LRT may not do is the latter, as you could use an alternate route via car that might/will be faster. It really only promotes movement to Whalley, but not so much inter-city movement as a whole. The distance between Whalley & Newton is much larger so LRT may not be as effective for the inter-city movement. To extend the Skytrain to Newton only (whether improving Guildford connections or not) would be creating a "get people to downtown Vanocuver" effect and not serving Guildford and making it easier to get there. It's not like the Expo Line extension to Langley via Fraser Highway option won't be there anymore either. We could still do that, but until Langley does mature enough to make such a connection worth it, should we even consider building it. The City of Surrey and the centres within it should be prioritized.

ewton & Guildford are in no ways small. Newton is growing fast with density and so is Guildford, with many new housing developments coming up in the past few years and many more on the way, as well as the expanded Guildford Mall. Whalley to Metrotown is not 10 minutes.... you don't need to go to metrotown for all your shopping needs, I feel that Guildford will be very successful if proper RRT connection is made there because there are a lot of people that are not actually willing to leave the city. We do not have to force a "People will not come from any further than King George" situation. Whalley and Newton residents could access Guildford very quickly and be out of there very quickly on a grade-separated route that is much faster than LRT.

LRT would probably do great at connecting the outer city centres such as South Surrey/White Rock and Cloverdale, as well as Langley, Walnut Grove/Port Kells and the like. In addition I think that a regional transit connection to Langley & the rest of the Fraser Valley would be better implemented as the recreated interurban line, a-la West Coast Express. There are similar systems like this everywhere else in the world (i.e. GO train in Metro Toronto) and they work fairly well. I would like to see in the future a larger-scale Metro Vancouver connected quickly and well by interurban commuter rail.

Last edited by xd_1771; Apr 29, 2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Re-edited paragraph arrangement for easier reading
     
     
  #730  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 11:27 PM
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i gott say bcphil you do make some good points about skytrain to langley. But i still wonder if its worth it. Langley is really far away and surrey is trying to slow gorwth in fleetwood. Well it makes some sense to get some fast transit for a long hall route but is the price of running and paying for that route gonna be worth it? I mean i see skytrain to newton town centre beign well worth it since there is already over 100,000 people in newton. It also allows people living in north delta which i also think has to be atleast over 50,000.

But either way happens i see it being good for surrey city centre since it will be a central area to the regional travel meaning easy access to anywhere in the lower mainland. Which will also look good for business looking to invest in the area. they will see as the central point to a huge population with mutliple means of traveling to and from....take that vancouver=P
     
     
  #731  
Old Posted Apr 29, 2011, 11:42 PM
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I'm disappointed to see Guildford being underestimated and mistreated as a major node of the City of Surrey. It has the biggest mall in Surrey which is being expanded & made bigger, as well as the biggest movie theatre in the city of Surrey; it will be a major transit node soon for travellers from Coquitlam/Langley via RapidBus, is already a major transit node in itself, and is fairly dense and developed. Why exclude us in creating a good transit plan to make Guildford acccessible to the city Surrey and vice-versa? You think the easy highway access is the reason we don't get anything suitable? Does that actually do anything for being able to get to places within Surrey? In fact, I think being near the Highway is what gives Guildford a major advantage. So many people travel that highway all the time and Guildford is smack dab beside it, people are going to be coming here and from here will want to access the rest of the city of Surrey. What about for travel to the rest of the city of Surrey from Guildford residents, or perhaps Langley residents alike going through here via Raipdbus? Has that even been considered? Has the prospect of Whalley soon becoming a major city centre, attracting a boatload of people, been considered (I'm sure it has), and that a majority of this traffic going there will converge at Guildford before heading to Whalley, after which a high-quality & high-capacity transportation system will be needed?

I think a lot of you have the wrong perspective put into your minds. If you consider Surrey, Langley & the SOF, etc. as its own metropolitan area (which, as far as I'm concerned, is what Mayor Diane Watts is trying to do), then a lot of what I'm trying to say makes perfect sense.
     
     
  #732  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 12:02 AM
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we are trying to make a metro in a metro area already. Metro Vancouver not just surrey is trying to make central a metro area for SoF. It make sense to do so seeing how majority of people SoF dont actually travel out of the area. What we are trying to do is making traveling around the area easier to rather then travel out and in.
Also note i am not deny Guidlford as a town centre but its the fact that skytrain will never go there do to how it is now set up and ended. You can't expand it and back track thats just a waste. Your proposed route is also not the best cause if your expanding skytrain to newton why not just make it seemless into Vancouver then making an annoying transfer. Plus on top of it the route between central and guildford is just to short to make a seperate skytrain route on its own. Well yes in an ideal world where money grows on trees the skytrain would easily go to guildford. Its just not worth fighting that it has to since its not realistic for what the price would be.
     
     
  #733  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 12:09 AM
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Guildford is a node for people travelling to the city of Surrey. From there people travel around the City of Surrey, or beyond, depending on situation. A strong transit system is only as strong as its weakest link, and if you're able to get there effectively but not able to get around there effectively, then what's the use? This is one of the reasons I also highly support the introduction of significantly more community shuttle bus routes to the city of Surrey. Think of the NWC vs HBC in the 1800s & earlier. The NWC brought the trading to the people... and that's how they succeeded for the most part vs the HBC. This can and will work in the same way.

If you build to Newton on a line that continues to Surrey, then you're not really promoting Surrey's City Centre anymore, you're promoting Vancouver's. I thought a key goal is to be able to make access to the Surrey City Centre easier and better... not everywhere else. Besides, a transfer being a problem!? Seriously!? People have to deal with transfers between buses for Newton-Surrey Central travel in the same way... it's a bit of walking and the trains would come often anyway. Not an issue. Far from one. Especially if the platforms are very well connected (or perhaps even the same platform) as would be the case with Skytrain.

I really don't see how Skytrain to connect the major centres would be any more expensive than LRT in the long term either (considering operating costs, costs of trains, etc.)
     
     
  #734  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 1:07 AM
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transfers are well known as the biggest thing around here that makes people not want to take transit. You can tell people to get over it but its not what they want. Plus by make a seperate line means some people in newton area would go from one bus to central and transfer to bus to the new station transfer onto skytrain and then transfer again at central. thats 3 transfer thats not including if they need to transfer again when they get where they're going on skytrain. just isnt the answer right now in surrey on its own.
     
     
  #735  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 1:29 AM
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Consider that with LRT separate lines is what is being proposed to Newton.
The advantage of Skytrain is that you can transfer just by walking out of one train and getting into another. Station platforms can be intertwined so not much walking distance is required for such transfer. This I believe could work very well at Lougheed Station when (if?) the Evergreen line is built.
     
     
  #736  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 1:34 AM
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personally i think that would just look horrible then having to massive station and tracks taking up so much space that could be used for buildings
     
     
  #737  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 1:37 AM
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Massive? Have a look at Lougheed Town Ctr. It's nowhere near massive. Tracks and stations have no need to be very wide. In addition, stations can be integrated into building designs. You might not even have to expand the station, use the existing tracks. The Expo Line west of Columbia doesn't have any trouble handling both Expo & Millennium Line trains on one platform.
     
     
  #738  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 2:45 AM
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And to what end? Crossing a large swath of ALR land, serving a small portion of Fleetwood and the 23,000 people living in Langley City, while missing the populations of Cloverdale and Langley Township entirely? The Fraser Hwy route doesn't make sense to me.

Langley's on the very edge of the region, and should be way down the priority list of places to connect by rapid transit. We should be encouraging TOD to occur in Surrey itself, if we must encourage it anywhere in the SoF.
Agree wholeheartedly. Same reason SkyTrain isn't going out to PoCo, or Maple Ridge.
     
     
  #739  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 3:10 AM
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There's really nothing that prohibits us from creating a new SkyTrain line from scratch in the Surrey area... in fact I had a concept way back showing how it could be done:



Now I have to say, this does prioritize Newton first unless either a huge four-way switch is installed at King George Highway and 88th Street or the cars actually back out of King George towards Guildford. Having said that it still seems easy to integrate into the Expo Line if necessary.
     
     
  #740  
Old Posted Apr 30, 2011, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
Massive? Have a look at Lougheed Town Ctr. It's nowhere near massive. Tracks and stations have no need to be very wide. In addition, stations can be integrated into building designs. You might not even have to expand the station, use the existing tracks. The Expo Line west of Columbia doesn't have any trouble handling both Expo & Millennium Line trains on one platform.
so then your support shutting skytrain down from central for a while well tracks get replaced to create a switch?
     
     
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