New Downtown Calgary Arena

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by craner

Anything is possible but maybe not worth the effort and expense to try and convert it to a football stadium.
A football field is more than twice as wide as the ice surface - think of the heritage classic. A hockey rink is 85 feet (30 yds) wide I belive and a CFL feild is 65 yds plus sideline area.
I like the idea of the two facilities being close together though and integrated into the "Entertainment District" at Stampede Park. I also applaud your brainstorming on what to do with the Saddledome when the new arena gets built.
As for the football stadium - maybe converting the Stampede grandstand should be looked into (as mentoned before in this thread).

Especially since the grand stand is now a stampede only facility, it would make for an interesting rodeo facility for sure - the sight lines for chucks would be hurt but I'm sure could make it workable, if not optimal.

[yo-youyi]

this might be relevant to the Flames...

Stelmach opens arena funding door slightly

http://www.inews880.com/Channels/Reg/LocalNews/story.aspx?ID=1398939

...if the province gives Edmonton $100M for their arena, expect Calgary to get the same.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by yo-youyi

...if the province gives Edmonton $100M for their arena, expect Calgary to get the same.

Yeah, and fortunately I don't think we're stupid enough to spend $450 million on a rink (seriously, 2 of the smallest NHL cities in NA want to build the 2 most expensive rinks, why??). So we should have no problem getting this thing built with that kind of government infusion.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Yeah, and fortunately I don't think we're stupid enough to spend $450 million on a rink (seriously, 2 of the smallest NHL cities in NA want to build the 2 most expensive rinks, why??). So we should have no problem getting this thing built with that kind of government infusion.

Freeweed, I understand your point BUT...I'm guessing one of the biggest factors contributing to the big price tag for Edmonton and Quebec City is the fact that they ARE the newest buildings and thus will almost always be the most expensive. It's almost a fact of life.

You bring up an interesting point though. It would be neat to see a list of current NHL arenas in order of age with their construction cost included. Just to see what (if any) correlation there is between age and construction cost. Of course arena's have evolved over time and have become more elaborate as well.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by lubicon

Freeweed, I understand your point BUT...I'm guessing one of the biggest factors contributing to the big price tag for Edmonton and Quebec City is the fact that they ARE the newest buildings and thus will almost always be the most expensive. It's almost a fact of life.

You bring up an interesting point though. It would be neat to see a list of current NHL arenas in order of age with their construction cost included. Just to see what (if any) correlation there is between age and construction cost. Of course arena's have evolved over time and have become more elaborate as well.

I'm probably not being clear - most expensive *taking inflation into account*. I think the next most expensive is almost $100 million less. There's no way things have gotten that expensive in less than 10 years, especially considering we're still in the tail end of a recession.

There's also the fact that other places have built arenas in very recent memory for substantially less. Pittsburgh's was just over $300 million and it just opened this season. I find it very, very hard to believe nearly 50% inflation since 2008.

The current thinking is that a modern NHL arena should be in the $300-375 million range, depending on the size of the market and how fancy you want to go. No way in hell should the 2 smallest markets (I'm including QC's plans here) require the 2 most expensive rinks. It makes no sense at all.

[UofC.engineer]

Pittsburgh is a post industrial city rusting away. You can buy a house for the price of a VCR. Of course an arena is going to cost less when you factor in labor and material costs...it's basic economics.

People don't realize it but professional sports teams are very important to cities from an economical perspective. Think about how many millionaires are employed by these clubs? They spend all those dollars in the city.

Freeweed...Ottawa is now smaller than Calgary

And Buffalo isn't that big either it's CSA is 1.2 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Pittsburgh is a post industrial city rusting away. You can buy a house for the price of a VCR. Of course an arena is going to cost less when you factor in labor and material costs...it's basic economics.

People don't realize it but professional sports teams are very important to cities from an economical perspective. Think about how many millionaires are employed by these clubs? They spend all those dollars in the city.
Freeweed...Ottawa is now smaller than Calgary

And Buffalo isn't that big either it's CSA is 1.2 million
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York

Do they? How many of them have second homes somewhere (perhaps not even in Canada) that they live at during the off-season, and spend most of their money there?

[Riise]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

People don't realize it but professional sports teams are very important to cities from an economical perspective.

What the studies that examine the financial impact of new arenas/professional sports clubs on local spending don't focus on is whether or not this money is additional spending or money that would simply be spent in other parts of the city/region on other forms of entertainment or discretionary purchases. Could it be a case of the Walmart effect?

[MalcolmTucker]

There is also the promotional value of having a team representing your city to a continental audience, even if somewhat limited on tv, and spill over to newspapers and radio in nhl markets.

I would say that is probably worth a couple million a year, maybe as high as 5, but really hard to measure.

If Calgary can get a new stadia for only associated infrastructure costs and perhaps a free land lease it would truely be a steal of a deal for the city.

[Calgarian]

I'm with freeweed, Consol Energy Center cost $321 million US, how is an arena in Edmonton going to cost $129 million more? Consol is a state of the art building.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Riise

What the studies that examine the financial impact of new arenas/professional sports clubs on local spending don't focus on is whether or not this money is additional spending or money that would simply be spent in other parts of the city/region on other forms of entertainment or discretionary purchases. Could it be a case of the Walmart effect?

New arenas rarely contribute more to a local economy than would spending in almost anything else. It is usually just something that Sports franchises say so they can get government funding.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

There is also the promotional value of having a team representing your city to a continental audience, even if somewhat limited on tv, and spill over to newspapers and radio in nhl markets.

I would say that is probably worth a couple million a year, maybe as high as 5, but really hard to measure.

If Calgary can get a new stadia for only associated infrastructure costs and perhaps a free land lease it would truely be a steal of a deal for the city.

Although I'm against using public funds to construct the arena, I think doing what you mentioned is fair game. If the city was able to recuperate those costs through a community revitalization/stadium property-tax surcharge on establishments that spring up around the facility, that would be brilliant!

[Ramsayfarian]

Originally Posted by fusili

New arenas rarely contribute more to a local economy than would spending in almost anything else. It is usually just something that Sports franchises say so they can get government funding.

I think there's been several studies done in the states that found that funding arenas/stadiums/ball parks is money wasted.

I'm against any public money spent on a new arena for the simple fact that it only benefits a small percentage of the population. I"d rather see the money go towards education or a library.

What doesn't the internets have?
http://books.google.ca/books?id=1cklAwAV...=6&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

I think there's been several studies done in the states that found that funding arenas/stadiums/ball parks is money wasted.

I'm against any public money spent on a new arena for the simple fact that it only benefits a small percentage of the population. I"d rather see the money go towards education or a library.

What doesn't the internets have?
http://books.google.ca/books?id=1cklAwAV...=6&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false

I wouldn't mind public construction and ownership of sports venues, particularly the kind of multi-purpose venues hockey and basketball require, if the theory matched the reality. That is if they were long term assets, monuments to a society, and a public good. Instead they have simply become a means to subsidize billionaires' vanity projects for twenty years until they demand a new one. Too many cities build them so as to make a statement that they're in the big leagues and then find that, instead of making an investment, they have just opened themselves up for extortion because the leagues have constrained supply so that ever more generous terms must be offered less the whole thing turn into a white elephant. It seems like the only places where it would really make sense for the government to build arenas are the ones where private interests are themselves happy to do it so that they can reap all the benefits.

Now if the city is going to build it with a team in mind or not because they have already, for whatever reason, decided to piss away money on something like the olympics, then so be it. Without the real ability to tell the professional team to get lost if they start asking for hand outs, the city is just asking for a Glendale situation where getting hosed on building an arena only leads to getting hosed on keeping it occupied.

Hopefully Glendale will serve as a warning for municipalities in the future. They essentially bet big on the ante without bothering to check their hand. Now that they know they're holding a two and a seven they're forced to keep raising lest they lose their initial misguided bet.

[freeweed]

On the whole "public money shouldn't be subsidizing millionaire hockey players and billionaire owners" thing... when I go to the Flames games, quite often the concession staff have "volunteer" tags on. Now, I may be a bit naive but I find it hard to believe that there are hundreds of bored teenagers in this city willing to volunteer their time just to line the pockets of some rich guy somewhere.

I'm actually being serious when I ask this - what are these people volunteering for? And is it just barely possible that something like the Saddledome (and replacement facility) isn't merely existing solely for the sake of making someone else richer?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by freeweed

On the whole "public money shouldn't be subsidizing millionaire hockey players and billionaire owners" thing... when I go to the Flames games, quite often the concession staff have "volunteer" tags on. Now, I may be a bit naive but I find it hard to believe that there are hundreds of bored teenagers in this city willing to volunteer their time just to line the pockets of some rich guy somewhere.

I'm actually being serious when I ask this - what are these people volunteering for? And is it just barely possible that something like the Saddledome (and replacement facility) isn't merely existing solely for the sake of making someone else richer?

Not sure if this is the case, but would be my best guess. An organization like a minor hockey league might get the chance to "work the Flames game" and keep a portion of the concession money, similar to working a casino or bingo. I grew up in a small town, and worked (or my parents when I was younger) a couple bingo's a year to help fund my minor hockey team. We were too far away from Edmonton to work an NHL game (not even sure it was an option).

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

I'm with freeweed, Consol Energy Center cost $321 million US, how is an arena in Edmonton going to cost $129 million more? Consol is a state of the art building.

Cheap labour.

[AirGuitarChampion]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Not sure if this is the case, but would be my best guess. An organization like a minor hockey league might get the chance to "work the Flames game" and keep a portion of the concession money, similar to working a casino or bingo. I grew up in a small town, and worked (or my parents when I was younger) a couple bingo's a year to help fund my minor hockey team. We were too far away from Edmonton to work an NHL game (not even sure it was an option).

This is the case. Even goes beyond minor hockey: a dragonboat team I was on back in 06/07 got a few nights there being the ID / wristband crew. The concessions have volunteers as well although I think they put one paid staffer in there to keep the operation from getting too sideways.

[freeweed]

This is the first public comment on the new arena in quite some time:

POSTMEDIA: New rink. What’s the latest?

KING: It’s still a two- to five-year project. I can’t conceive of it being any earlier . . . but we need to have a new building, ultimately. We spend a lot of time working on that. We have purposely not unveiled our plans because I don’t think we’re quite ready for that.

POSTMEDIA: That outside range, five years, is that just shovel-in-dirt?

KING: You’d like to think you could open the doors in that five-year horizon.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Flam...lenty+work+lies+ahead/4643026/story.html

[Innersoul1]

Originally Posted by freeweed

This is the first public comment on the new arena in quite some time:



http://www.calgaryherald.com/sports/Flam...lenty+work+lies+ahead/4643026/story.html

So lets assume that the preliminary design process has begun and just needs to be approved and finalized. From shovel in the ground to completion how long would the constructions process take? 2 years?