Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Overground]

It would be interesting to see how they would double-track portions of that CPR route. Presumably they would need to be that is.

There could be quite the uproar as well with the removal of those 4 blocks of community gardens along W 6th to accommodate that double-track.

[Millennium2002]

Technically were they built illegally though? I never heard of anything regarding a legal land transfer done to make that area officially a community garden zone.

Having said that they'll probably relocate the flowers and beds to somewhere close nearby to avoid part of the uproar.

Now, there's only one other thing in the way... and that's the Starbucks just at the entrance of Granville Island, which was built just after the railway closure but before people realized that saving the rest of the ROW was a good idea.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Overground

It would be interesting to see how they would double-track portions of that CPR route. Presumably they would need to be that is.

There could be quite the uproar as well with the removal of those 4 blocks of community gardens along W 6th to accommodate that double-track.

The abandoned ROW to Arbutus was already double-tracked.
One track was for the CPR trains, and the other track was for the old BC Electric Interurban trains that ran out to Steveston from downtown Vancouver until the 1950s. A lot of the Interurban track was pulled up back then when the interurban service was cancelled, but many of the streets and sidewalks on the Arbutus Corridor that cross the old CPR tracks also have the remnants of the Interurban tracks still there too. I'm guessing nobody wanted to spend money tearing open a street to remove the interurban tracks that crossed the street & then repave it. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that someone decided it would be cheaper to remove the abandoned crossings when a street needed other repairs that required digging up the area (ie: BCHydro, City sewers, City water, BCTel).

An example is at 10th @ Arbutus:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...ag-2Uh1PDzanZ7Gmw&cbp=12,307.87,,0,17.84

And another example at 14th @ Arbutus:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...q8rYf2aptISCIDpIw&cbp=12,187.48,,0,17.01

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Technically were they built illegally though? I never heard of anything regarding a legal land transfer done to make that area officially a community garden zone.

Having said that they'll probably relocate the flowers and beds to somewhere close nearby to avoid part of the uproar.

Now, there's only one other thing in the way... and that's the Starbucks just at the entrance of Granville Island, which was built just after the railway closure but before people realized that saving the rest of the ROW was a good idea.

With all the stuff that could have fallen out of railway cars over the last century, I'd be kinda leery about eating anything grown beside some abandoned railway tracks.

And lets not forget the tons of chemicals that CPR used to kill weeds and other plants that dared to encroach upon their tracks.

[Millennium2002]

Given that the garden's pretty much in the open I think it's more for just gardening than something that would be actually used to grow food from. It's just that there's a spike in demand for these things because more and more people are living in apartments and yet still wish to do some gardening once in awhile. =S

There are places elsewhere along the Arbutus line that could be desirable sites for garden plots, especially if we are to remove the current ones sitting on top of the railway tracks for a new streetcar service from Marpole to Science World via Granville Island.

BTW interesting find regarding the hidden double tracking. Now that I see it it would be relatively cheap to restore service along the corridor. =O

[Metro-One]

Do remember that when you use raised garden beds you generally do not use the soil around you, but buy / bring soil and manure from other areas.

So i would not be concerned about soil contaminants leaking into my vegetable garden in such an area, but I would be concerned about homeless and other people leaking on my vegetable garden

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The abandoned ROW to Arbutus was already double-tracked.
One track was for the CPR trains, and the other track was for the old BC Electric Interurban trains that ran out to Steveston from downtown Vancouver until the 1950s. A lot of the Interurban track was pulled up back then when the interurban service was cancelled, but many of the streets and sidewalks on the Arbutus Corridor that cross the old CPR tracks also have the remnants of the Interurban tracks still there too. I'm guessing nobody wanted to spend money tearing open a street to remove the interurban tracks that crossed the street & then repave it. It wouldn't surprise me to find out that someone decided it would be cheaper to remove the abandoned crossings when a street needed other repairs that required digging up the area (ie: BCHydro, City sewers, City water, BCTel).

An example is at 10th @ Arbutus:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...ag-2Uh1PDzanZ7Gmw&cbp=12,307.87,,0,17.84

And another example at 14th @ Arbutus:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...q8rYf2aptISCIDpIw&cbp=12,187.48,,0,17.01

That's a neat find; I never noticed that before. On top of that, it because it was also used for freight, the tracks have a lot of clearance. A modern streetcar with proper clearance would take up less space than the 2 old tracks. I think one of the Arbutus reports said that if you relocate the overhead power and telephone wires and cut back all the overgrown shrubs, you could safely put 2 LRT tracks and a bikeway inside the ROW.

[officedweller]

The other advantage of the Combo 1 scenario is that lower Kitsilano will get a station at Burrard where the Arbutus Corridor crosses it (at the 5th Avenue Theatre).

That would be a major score for lower Kitsilano since there has never been a planned station at Broadway & Burrard (i.e. between Granville and Arbutus).

Probably not as fast to downtown as a bus over the Burrard Bridge, but it would open up access to the rest of the City and the region with links to Canada Line and Expo Line. The Downtown Streetcar would have only turned south from the Vanier Park-bound RoW if and when a line was run down the Arbutus Corridor.

Side note: Collateral damage for Combo 1 would be the loss of a streetcar link to Vanier Park and the Planetarium.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The other advantage of the Combo 1 scenario is that lower Kitsilano will get a station at Burrard

That's an advantage, but a huge disadvantage is that all riders headed to/from West Broadway and UBC will now travel on those same trains right through their neighbourhood. That means long/frequent/full trains at least 8 months of the year.

Whereas, just extending the Olympic Line west for 1 km into this neighbourhood would accomplish the same thing you describe, without subjecting them to the traffic and competition of the UBC ridership.

[jsbertram]

My feeling is the LRT is in the UBC Line study only so they can say "we've looked at all the options". However, I don't expect LRT in any variation to be the final choice since Translink is Skytrain-focused (using either Bombardier or Rotem equipment).

One bit of interesting reading in the Phase II consulting documents is that one of the RRT options is tunnelling from Commercial & Broadway to UBC completely under Broadway - with the caveat that this requires a transfer to/from Expo & Millennium trains at Commercial & Broadway, and a transfer to/from Canada Line trains at City Hall. The fine print says that this line would be an independent line not connected to any of the existing SkyTrain lines. This may be a way to have a PPP build & operate the UBC line without Translink spending big bucks on construction - similar to how the Canada Line was done.

One question I have asked - without an answer - where along the Broadway to UBC corridor would you put the OMC for this new stand-alone subway line?

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

One question I have asked - without an answer - where along the Broadway to UBC corridor would you put the OMC for this new stand-alone subway line?

I'm guessing that the only alternative technology RRT would be bid by SNC-Lavalin and would have maintenance track connections to Canada Line and use its OMC. Are there any other likely bidders?

Commercial-Broadway would be insane... but most riders are going to be transferring there anyway, no matter what technology is chosen.

[golog]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

One question I have asked - without an answer - where along the Broadway to UBC corridor would you put the OMC for this new stand-alone subway line?

At UBC there is a bus loop just north of University Blvd (10th Ave), with a parking lot and field next to it. If that foot print is big enough, they could just excavate a level and build it like a simple underground parking garage.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The other advantage of the Combo 1 scenario is that lower Kitsilano will get a station at Burrard where the Arbutus Corridor crosses it (at the 5th Avenue Theatre).

That would be a major score for lower Kitsilano since there has never been a planned station at Broadway & Burrard (i.e. between Granville and Arbutus).

Probably not as fast to downtown as a bus over the Burrard Bridge, but it would open up access to the rest of the City and the region with links to Canada Line and Expo Line. The Downtown Streetcar would have only turned south from the Vanier Park-bound RoW if and when a line was run down the Arbutus Corridor.

Side note: Collateral damage for Combo 1 would be the loss of a streetcar link to Vanier Park and the Planetarium.

That may not happen anyhow, since the Squamish are redeveloping their wedge of land north of Molson Brewery on each side of the Burarrd Bridge. I have only seen on their plans a small extension of Fir St @ 1st Ave that would run along the eastern edge of the Molsons property, but it seems to me to be more like a parkade access ramp than a street.

The former CPR tracks on that property are still there, but just like the Olympic Village they would be ripped up during the redevelopment of the property. It would be a missed opportunity if this new Squamish development was completed without tying into the Downtown & False Creek LRT / Tram / Streetcar system that the City has on their wish-list.

I'm told that in the way-back days of the BCElectric interurban, the underside of the Burrard Bridge southern approach viaduct was a 'car-barn' and maintenance yard for the Steveston interurban trains.

Here's a more current photo of the area:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/37677963

[golog]

There is a fork in the track, from the Squamish/Molson properties one branch goes to Granville island where it hooks into the Olympic demo line, and the other heads south along Fir where it connects to the Arbutus ROW. You could connect Granville island to the Arbutus ROW without going through that undeveloped Squamish property.

There used to be a track from the foot of Burrard bridge to where the Kits beach parking lot at Arbutus & Cornwall is, but at least one building has been built over the old ROW. That routing would cut through the Squamish property.

[golog]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The abandoned ROW to Arbutus was already double-tracked.

Not completely. At least the curvy section with steep slopes between 33rd and 35th has obviously never been double tracked. Most of the route should be wide enough for double tracking, but it looks like only portions of it ever were as there are places where the track goes right down the middle and is flanked by hydro and telephone poles on either side. I think they would have used switching tracks, like the one that is still there between 41st and 45th.

I don't even know if freight traveled at the same time as passengers on the route (wasn't the interurban pre-wwii and the brewery post-wwii. there would have been industrial traffic from granville island pre-wwii, but there was a more convenient route for heavier or longer trains eastward)

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by golog

Not completely. At least the curvy section with steep slopes between 33rd and 35th has obviously never been double tracked. Most of the route should be wide enough for double tracking, but it looks like only portions of it ever were as there are places where the track goes right down the middle and is flanked by hydro and telephone poles on either side. I think they would have used switching tracks, like the one that is still there between 41st and 45th.

Actually, the entire ROW is designed for double freight tracks. The telephone poles are set back on the east side at the correct distance to accommodate a second track. The old Interurban was a 3rd track squeezed in on the west side. See examples:

At 12th Ave (vehicles are parked between the poles on the east side, where the 2nd track would be; the Interurban track remnants are on the west side):
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.261552,-123.152152&spn=0.001196,0.002315&t=h&z=19

At 33rd Ave (the informal pedestrian path is between the poles and on top of the hypothetical 2nd track):
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.242059,-123.146798&spn=0.001196,0.002315&t=h&z=19

At 41st Ave (some cars are parked between the poles and on top of the hypothetical 2nd track):
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.234867,-123.155107&spn=0.001196,0.002315&t=h&z=19

At SW Marine (the "squatting" garden plots are between the telephone poles and on top of the 2nd track's location):
http://maps.google.ca/?ie=UTF8&ll=49.208074,-123.143743&spn=0.001197,0.002315&t=h&z=19

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by golog

There is a fork in the track, from the Squamish/Molson properties one branch goes to Granville island where it hooks into the Olympic demo line, and the other heads south along Fir where it connects to the Arbutus ROW. You could connect Granville island to the Arbutus ROW without going through that undeveloped Squamish property.

There used to be a track from the foot of Burrard bridge to where the Kits beach parking lot at Arbutus & Cornwall is, but at least one building has been built over the old ROW. That routing would cut through the Squamish property.

the squamish development is developing with the idea of a streetcar running through their development they have accomodated for it in their design

[golog]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Actually, the entire ROW is designed for double freight tracks. The telephone poles are set back on the east side at the correct distance to accommodate a second track. The old Interurban was a 3rd track squeezed in on the west side.

Designed for maybe, but never built was my point. The slope between 33rd and 35th to this day only has room for a single track to this day. If they had to switch on for at least one segment, it makes sense to switch at other points and save costs. Was there a 4th track as well to allow bidirectional traffic on the 3rd track for the interurban?

Do you know what kinds freight traffic used the corridor besides the Molson Brewery (which is presumably post-WWII) -- I don't know the history and will defer to you, but I would guess there was a light mix of traffic that shared tracks. I think the Arbutus ROW would have served fewer potential clients (False Creek to Richmond) and carried lighter/shorter trains than the straighter/flatter eastward route from False Creek which was the industrial hub. It's been so long since I ran or biked along the route, but I think there are parts grounded by steel cable.


edit --------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vancouver-archives/5457279622/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vancouver-archives/5457279622/sizes/o/in/photostream/ << link to a large CoV archive picture near 33rd & Arbutus circa 1919 according to caption.
looks like 35th and Arbutus to me.
It's double tracked at the station. It looks so different I hardly know where I'm looking at without the mountains.
Maybe I'm wrong about the double tracking between 33rd and 35th, but based on experience biking along there I would say that it would need some concrete shoring to allow it again as there's a drainage ditch to one side and a steep slope down to what's an alley now but that may not have been there before.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by golog

Designed for maybe, but never built was my point. The slope between 33rd and 35th to this day only has room for a single track to this day.

I understand what you are getting at, but I think you are still wrong. Even on that slope, the ROW is nearly 60 feet wide, just like the rest of the ROW. The retaining walls for the houses on 35th Avenue are all built at the correct location to accomodate a 2nd east/south track, and the hydro poles are spaced correctly for it. And there is still space on this hill for a 3rd track, the interurban track, on the west/north side, although the hydro poles appear to have been built on top of it.

[BCPhil]

I'm pretty sure that the Arbutus ROW dates back to around 1900. Even before the brewery, the tracks served an important purpose for CP. Great Northern and Canadian Northern built the Granview Cut and basically claimed all the land the fill created in the False Creek Flats. This cut the Burrard peninsula in half, and CP's main line was to the north. CP had the North side of False creek and wanted access to the mills and industry on the south side. Before all the apartments were built and before the brewery, the south side of False Creek was covered with industry. They built a trestle across False Creek and the ROW down Arbutus. This allowed the central CP yards in Yaletown access to the industry on the South Side of False Creek and the industry along the Fraser River without the CP tracks having to physically cross the GN/CN tracks. They could bring freight from mills on the Fraser River to the ports on Burrard Inlet without having to go through New Westminster. I believe freight trains (and not just from the brewery) crossed the Kits Trestle until it was dismantled before Expo.

While trying to find some dates for my post I ran across this report from Richmond.

http://www.richmond.ca/__shared/assets/021400_item81028.pdf

Its from 2000 and is in regard to the Arbutus corridor and refers to a report by BC Transit about the RAV line done in 1990. The attached map of transit lines, from about 2000, is interesting to note. It includes Translink's phases of the Millennium line that it thought were a sure thing. It's interesting how plans seem to constantly change in Vancouver. First RAV was the priority, then Millennium, then cut that project in half, then build RAV, not maybe back to the other phases of the Millennium line.

If we didn't spend so much time arguing over which one should be done first, they would probably all been done by now.