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  #1861  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
Thanks! That was very informative! This really brings me back to my Geology class at CU. It was fun going up every canyon west of Boulder and walking along the exposed layers back through time to when the Front Range was a shallow sea.
Have you seen the new exhibit at the Museum of Nature and Science? It's small, but they are displaying a series of paintings that depict what Denver looked like at different points over the last 300 million years. It's very neat. Based on a book you might have seen called "Ancient Denvers: Scenes from the Past 300 Million Years of the Colorado Front Range."

(http://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Denvers-Sc...ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1302289010&sr=8-1)

A couple of pics I snapped at the museum... not great, phone pics. But you get the idea.

This is where our beloved Lyons Sandstone comes from:



More (not in chronological order):



Denver Formation - our groundwater:











Morrison Formation:



Anyways, sorry, back to our regularly scheduled development program.
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  #1862  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 7:09 PM
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What are you talking about? The US is very good at following the natural contours of the land. We're all about it!


source: telvsn on flickr


source: he who shall on flickr
That, my friend, is absolute eye-candy to the Geologist in me!

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  #1863  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 8:12 PM
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Strictly speaking, that's not true either. Only about two-thirds of German roads don't have speed limits. And that's rapidly changing too.

For example, the Green party-led government that just won in Baden Wuerttemberg (first state premiership ever held by the Greens...and an awfully odd place for them to start; the conservatives have held that state since the end of the war) has vowed to impose 75 mph speed limits on all roads. Yes, in Stuttgart, home of Mercedes and Porsche. And speed limits are expanding... and if the European Commission has its way, they'll become universal.
If I recall correctly think this was just historically, like in the 50s. And I'll freely admit my source is TLC
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  #1864  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:13 PM
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How is it that the Transit thread got derailed (pun intended) into a geology thread, the Development thread got "urbanly renewed" into a highway thread, and the Economy thread got "hostilely taken over" by a Pueblo-bashing thread? I feel partially responsible for all three.
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  #1865  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:21 PM
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I feel partially responsible for all three.
Goddamn right you are. You should feel an unbearable amount of shame that you are forced to confront by eating a gallon of Chunky Rocky Road.

Feel the shame!

I, on the other hand, have no qualms with my blatant digressions of thread topics in order to mock certain individuals. I wallow in my own filth with glee.
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  #1866  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:24 PM
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Goddamn right you are. You should feel an unbearable amount of shame that you are forced to confront by eating a gallon of Chunky Rocky Road.

Feel the shame!

I, on the other hand, have no qualms with my blatant digressions of thread topics in order to mock certain individuals. I wallow in my own filth with glee.


That, my friend, is a three jester comment!

Aaron (Glowrock)
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  #1867  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:27 PM
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Man, you guys buy into all sorts of myths about Germany. The Science Channel, seriously? That's no different from Eeyore quoting Modern Marvels as the ultimate authority on the impact of the interstate system. If the Science Channel says that 24-inch continuously-reinforced concrete pavement is universal on the Autobahn, they're just flat out lying. Do you want me to post pictures of an asphalt road in Germany? I've only driven on a thousand of them. (I suppose they could be doing an asphalt overlay on a 24-inch concrete slab, but that'd be asinine.)
hey man, I never said it was Universal in Germany or that all of their autobahns were constructed this way. You just assumed that. Yes, the Science Channel, their programs are highly reliable sources. And yes, it was also mentioned that Autobahn construction more closely follows Terran than US interstates, which keepers drivers more alert, thus why they have lower accident rates in Germany, despite higher or no speed limits. Interstates are pretty much straight. They might follow the elevation changes more here in the US, but they are not curvy.

I'm sure 24-inch thick is no longer the norm, even in Germany. It was (as was suggested), probably more of a WWII and Cold War thing, as they were designed for tanks.

So perhaps my position is dated. Especially with new high strength concretes and things such as semi-conducting fiberglass embedded senor arrays now in use in road construction. The embedded semi-conducting fiberglass senor array is connected to a computer system, which can instantly detect cracks, even micro-fractures in the concrete and immediately create a ticket for dispatch of road crews to repair it.

I found this website: http://www.german-autobahn.eu/index.asp?page=design
It seems perhaps they might bank their curves more? 4% max grades, for the most part US also is no more than 4% grades, except places such as Colorado. I-70 seems to be evolving closer to autobahn standards in many ways, as far as smart highway aspects go.
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Last edited by SnyderBock; Apr 8, 2011 at 9:39 PM.
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  #1868  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:39 PM
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Originally Posted by The Dirt View Post
How is it that the Transit thread got derailed (pun intended) into a geology thread, the Development thread got "urbanly renewed" into a highway thread, and the Economy thread got "hostilely taken over" by a Pueblo-bashing thread? I feel partially responsible for all three.
No worries, Cirrus will have plenty of time to clean up your mess when the government shuts down, anarchy reigns, and all Americans cower indoors to avoid the stench.
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  #1869  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:42 PM
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This video says America is going to end this year, completely fall apart!
http://www.stansberryresearch.com/pro/1103PSIEOAVD/6PSIM403/PR
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  #1870  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:44 PM
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Do I have to?
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  #1871  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 9:46 PM
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Do I have to?
You could move the geology discussion to the sandwich thread, I suppose.
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  #1872  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2011, 10:53 PM
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You could move the geology discussion to the sandwich thread, I suppose.
Are we talking about petrified sandwiches? I heard you can leave a McDonald's burger out on a table for 8 years and it won't go bad - bread, patty, and all.

Shit... just derailed again.
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  #1873  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2011, 2:17 AM
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Geology and Rocky Road

Where else in the US can you look casually look out and see so much geology! From the bare Pre-Cambrian metamorphics that are 1.5 billion to0 1 billion years old to Miocene 20 million year lava flows (that's why the Table Mountains have not eroded away).

Each of those pictures, I bet, matches a formational outcrop that you can drive up and SEE! (Over less than a meter you can walk across a billion years difference in time.... ) You can look and see the real earth, as there is little ground cover.

The Sand dunes are either Dakota or possibly Fountain formation...

The Rocky Road is Holocene...

Ok, back to transportation.

G*d we live a beautiful place!

Last edited by Wizened Variations; Apr 9, 2011 at 2:24 AM. Reason: had to erase a hen scratch
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  #1874  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 12:48 AM
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Got a question regarding the potential to put streetcars down Colfax. Does anyone know if it's possible to put the electrical lines underground as opposed to overhead? It seems like you could easily link an electrical tether to a cable that is positioned several feet underground. The access point at street level would only need to be a few inches wide to accommodate the tether and there could be a metallic cover that would slide open at the access point whenever a train passes overhead. Otherwise, it would remain closed so that nothing falls within, such as bike tires, rainwater, trash, etc..

This seems so much more practical than overhead lines, not to mention more visually appealing.
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  #1875  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 2:11 AM
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Need to see a sketch of your idea I think. So.. the cable runs in a box underground, with open continuous access to above? Concrete?

So you'd have to design an all new streetcar vehicle, since I'm sure there's nothing on the market today that reaches down for power.

No ties I suppose, or else how does the cable "tether" make continuous contact? So you'd have to have a different rail design too.

More utility conflicts too... I can just see millions in added costs. Underground is expensive, and it's more crowded down there than you might think.

Anything is possible, but practical is another question. Overhead wires can be done very discretely. If that's a deal breaker in our city, then we have no business building streetcars.
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  #1876  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 4:37 AM
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I've driven that road cut in Maryland probably 50 times or so.

I like road cuts, to be honest. But, I'm also a geologist...
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  #1877  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 4:52 AM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
Need to see a sketch of your idea I think. So.. the cable runs in a box underground, with open continuous access to above? Concrete?

So you'd have to design an all new streetcar vehicle, since I'm sure there's nothing on the market today that reaches down for power.

No ties I suppose, or else how does the cable "tether" make continuous contact? So you'd have to have a different rail design too.

More utility conflicts too... I can just see millions in added costs. Underground is expensive, and it's more crowded down there than you might think.

Anything is possible, but practical is another question. Overhead wires can be done very discretely. If that's a deal breaker in our city, then we have no business building streetcars.
There are numerous streetcar systems around the world that use a 3rd rail located underground which powers the train forward. Some also use battery power for short segments only to be recharged along stretches of the track with an overhead catanary system. If I could pick a proven technology for Denver, it would the Bombadier, which is discussed on page 7.

http://www.kimley-horn.com/Projects/fast...rInfo/streetcars%20technology3%20(2).pdf
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  #1878  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 5:07 AM
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So an underground third rail, not what I was thinking from what you described.

Both of those use full size light rail trainsets. You're adding some serious cost there. Just my opinion, but we don't have any "visually sensitive areas"... at least not that would justify the additional cost.

Ignoring European systems for a moment. Those older DC and NYC systems... how was the third rail protected from pedestrians, anybody know? Not just accidents, but intentional tampering or whatever? Wonder what the PUC would have to say about that... I don't think it's ever been done here, and obviously not in Colorado.
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  #1879  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 5:08 AM
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Actually, it can be done and has been done, and is a major area of research and development right now. Wireless streetcars are a huge topic.

New York and Washington both had wireless streetcar networks in the old days. In Washington it was because of a Congressional law (that still exists) banning overhead wires in much of the central city. They used what are known as conduit streetcars, in which the power supply was carried in an underground channel. The system looked like this and worked well-enough for decades prior to being ripped out in the 1960s.

There are currently no old-fashioned conduit streetcars left in the world, and if we wanted to use them again we'd have to reinvent the technology. We could do that, but honestly we don't want to, because "worked well-enough" is a relative term. Bad weather gummed up the system frequently, especially in the snow. It was also more expensive, and more dangerous - if you really wanted to you could stick your fingers into the slot and electrocute yourself. I don't know if that ever actually happened (you"d have to be doing it intentionally), but in this age of litigation nobody wants to put something like that on a public street.

But there's increasing interest in the idea again.

There are of course diesel trams, which obviously are wireless. New Jersey uses those on its River Line. Like any diesel train though, they don't start up very fast and aren't ideal for transit lines with frequent stops. Good enough for suburban light rail, but not really workable for urban streetcar.

The first modern wireless electric streetcar was built in Bordeaux, France in 2003 using a ground level power supply that was basically a higher-tech, safer, more expensive conduit. It works, but it's super expensive. Several times the cost of overhead wires to both install and maintain. Too expensive to be a solution for anything other than very short lengths.

Since the Bordeaux system went live there's been a ton of research into other systems. Here's a great outline of where wireless streetcar technology is today. Most of the research is in the direction of batteries or other power storage systems. The current status is that we can put out streetcars that can go wireless for a mile or so, with the idea that you use a wire except for key locations.

In DC, where we have an expansive 38-mile streetcar plan but are still under that pesky Congressional ban on wires for the central city, the idea is that we'll use a hybrid system with wires except where we're not allowed. To follow through, the city is requiring that future streetcar vehicles be capable of operating for at least a mile without wires. Since that announcement, and since the federal government launched a grant to develop wireless streetcar technology, several vehicle manufacturers have produced prototypes.

Overall it appears that fully wireless streetcar technology that is affordable is still a few years away, but hybrid vehicles capable for going wireless for a mile or two essentially exist now, and are ready to be put into production.
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  #1880  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2011, 5:15 AM
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... All that being said, even under the best circumstances any wireless system adds cost and complexity. The wire systems we have today are exceptionally good, and if you're just using an on-street tram rather than a full light rail trainset you can get by with a much smaller and less visible wire than what RTD uses for light rail.

There's really no need to go wireless unless there are truly special circumstances.
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