Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Google News seems to be picking up this letter to the Coquitlam Now.. anyone want to take a crack at it?



http://www.thenownews.com/There+still+time+with/4581435/story.html

Is Zwei the nom de plume for "J-L Brussac"?

Maybe not.
... There isn't enough ranting, nor a demand to restore the Chilliwack interurban instead of building Evergreen.

[flight_from_kamakura]

i don't know, i'm still myself wondering if lrt wouldn't be a good option out there. anyway, will be amazing when the shovel hits the ground on evergreen (or eventual name).

[SpongeG]

it would be a perfect option out here but whatever

[invisibleairwaves]

It's certainly odd that Translink rejected LRT in one area and then offered it as an option in another, even less well-suited area. Seems to suggest that they've already made up their minds on the Broadway corridor.

I'm not convinced LRT would be such a bad thing for Evergreen either.

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Google News seems to be picking up this letter to the Coquitlam Now.. anyone want to take a crack at it?



http://www.thenownews.com/There+still+time+with/4581435/story.html

Yes, I think it is too late to go back to LRT for the Evergreen Line. Skytrain is the best option because it will seamlessly integrate with the rest of the network. Also since less than half the line is elevated any loss of views will be mitigated.

I doubt the UBC line will be LRT, but Translink has to consider all options. The public consultations and further study of the issue will likely result in LRT being rule an unsuitable choice for the Broadway corridor. The effect of an LRT line on Broadway will disrupt traffic and local businesses will be crippled by the loss of all parking.

[Metro-One]

If anyone remembers it is also because the proposed LRT option for Evergreen had a price tag only 200 million dollars less than building it as skytrain. A minimal savings for building an unnecessary switch in technologies, also it was going to be twice as slow as skytrain, and have far less capacity for future growth.

Hence this is why it urks me so much to see LRT being an option for Broadway, because if it was not going to work for Evergreen (thank goodness they switched it back to skytrain) it will definitely not work for Broadway / UBC.

The only area I can see LRT working in Metro Van is Surrey, simply because their population base is sooo spread out over so many little nodes and they have sooo many areas where there is plenty of space for ground level ROW.

The Evergreen Line and UBC corridor do not have these attributes, hence skytrain is the proper choice for both.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

it would be a perfect option out here but whatever

Maybe along the alternate route which bypassed Port Moody, but definitely not along St John's street.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The only area I can see LRT working in Metro Van is Surrey, simply because their population base is sooo spread out over so many little nodes and they have sooo many areas where there is plenty of space for ground level ROW.

As long as you can widen the street to accommodate lrt, I don't see why we can't have lrt in Van City, or anywhere else. Obviously Broadway can't be widened, but there are a lot of other main streets that can.

With 1 km spacing, Skytrain is only 15 seconds faster between stations vs light rail with signal priority. It's only in the suburbs where there is longer station spacing that Skytain can utilize its higher top speed.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Hence this is why it urks me so much to see LRT being an option for Broadway, because if it was not going to work for Evergreen (thank goodness they switched it back to skytrain) it will definitely not work for Broadway / UBC.

That "urks" you (sic)? Really?

That it's an option in the consultation hardly means it's really on the table. The point is to present all options, with the relative pros and cons, and hope that an obvious choice emerges. The choice may be obvious to you, but it's not obvious to the average citizen who is seeing the choices for the first time. You need to include LRT (and bus options) to make the natural choice look better by comparison.

I mean, half of the design document is warnings about how disruptive a surface alignment would be to the Broadway corridor. I think it's fairly obvious that Translink has no actual desire to go down that path.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by logan5

With 1 km spacing, Skytrain is only 15 seconds faster between stations vs light rail with signal priority. It's only in the suburbs where there is longer station spacing that Skytain can utilize its higher top speed.

Except that LRT will not have full signal priority in any situation where it is at grade in the street. Translink's materials and presentations about LRT, and BRT for that matter, for the UBC line make it clear that the the trains will stop at traffic lights and will not be as reliable, as frequent, or as fast as a grade separated, read tunneled, option. Translink also identifies LRT as having 10- to 15kph lower average operational speed than RRT, which is significant.

[officedweller]

I think the main difference between Evergreen and Broadway is that Evergreen is really the completion of the Millennium Line and Broadway to Arbutus is the corresponding segment. As Metro Vancouver grows in Maple Ridge & Pitt Meadows, the Evergreen Line will be "mid-region" and not on the periphery, so it is needed as "backbone" to serve its increasing traffic load over time.

While an LRT network feeding into the M-Line at Lougheed would work, it would also force a two-transfer journey to downtown Vancouver for the non-9-5ers who don't take Westcoast Express and significantly increase travel time - that factors into converting commuters to transit.

As Metro-One mentioned, the costs between LRT and SkyTrain were similar because of the Clarke Road tunnel to Port Moody. There will be a bigger price differential between surface LRT and underground SkyTrain on Broadway, so it'll be interesting to see what wins out - cost savings and inconvenience or fast but expensive.

In some respects, I consider UBC and the West Side to be close enough to downtown (and connections to SkyTrain and Canada Line) that a slower option may be acceptable (i.e. option Combo 1) - i.e. that you don't need to provide as much as an incentive because travel times are generally reasonable.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

Except that LRT will not have full signal priority in any situation where it is at grade in the street.

This is exactly right. To get Skytrain capacities LRT will have to run very frequently, and when you combine intersection crossings in both directions you'll find that you simply can't always give LRT the right of way - it would choke traffic on busy cross streets such as Cambie and Granville. And I'm not just talking about inconveniencing cars - those streets are also major transit arteries.

[logan5]

So then it's unanimous. LRT will not work in busy areas like central Broadway.
I just found the Translink numbers interesting. A one minute difference between Commercial and Cambie, Skytrain vs LRT. But maybe signal priority doesn't work as SFU suggests.

[officedweller]

Yeah, central Broadway - there's no way I could see surface LRT along that stretch of Broadway - but west of Arbutus there aren't as may north-south arteries (MacDonald, Alma and maybe Blanca? (and they aren't regional)) - so it may be feasible (i.e. Combo 1)

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by logan5

So then it's unanimous. LRT will not work in busy areas like central Broadway.
I just found the Translink numbers interesting. A one minute difference between Commercial and Cambie, Skytrain vs LRT. But maybe signal priority doesn't work as SFU suggests.

Its easy to signal priority when each train is only 15-30 minutes apart. And even 5 minutes might be possible as well.

But you could never give priority to every train if every train was coming at 90 seconds which skytrain can. At that frequency you need to seperate the train from the other vehicles around it.

We need to stop thinking in a 2 dimensional view where everything is at the same level. And think 3 dimensionally where different transportation options are at different levels.

[DKaz]

5 minutes is not bad if you have trains with a capacity of 1,000+. That would be about 150m-200m long trains. The only implication is that stations could be two city blocks long. Even then, you would want to grade separate at Main, Cambie, and Fir to Ash. You can't do 90 seconds without banning pedestrians/cars from entering the trackway, you'd have to be pedestrian overpasses with elevators every 3 blocks or so, might as well build Skytrain underground then. But as long as the frequencies don't exceed the B-Lines I'm fine, I don't want to be like Edmonton or Calgary with 10-20 minute night time frequencies, oh wait, Canada Line. lol.

Calgary LRT basically goes every 2.5 minutes downtown during rush hour, but it's also very slow in that stretch.

It's probably unfair that Evergreen Line is possibly getting the go ahead while UBC is still stuck. I could see it going a few ways:

1. Build LRT, then later build skytrain, downgrade LRT to local tram service and build stops every two blocks.
2. Upgrade 99 B-Line to No. 3 Road standards. Then build skytrain when that becomes affordable, bored under 10th/whatever. Busway can still be used for local services.
3. Solve funding issues by 2015 and just build Skytrain all the way. Hopefully the Province of BC's offer to contribute is still on the table.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by DKaz

5 minutes is not bad if you have trains with a capacity of 1,000+. That would be about 150m-200m long trains.

Can anyone cite an example of such long trains being operated in an urban corridor as dense and busy as Broadway's hospital district?

[WarrenC12]

^^^^^^^^^^ I'm pretty sure that's sarcastic. At least I hope.

This past week I found myself driving up and down West Broadway during the afternoons on Tues and Wed. Anybody who thinks there is a possibility of on-street rail transit is out to lunch. It's completely laughable.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Can anyone cite an example of such long trains being operated in an urban corridor as dense and busy as Broadway's hospital district?

Toronto subway system, Montreal Subway System, New York Subway System... Only ones I've ever been on, but I'm sure there are more.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Toronto subway system, Montreal Subway System, New York Subway System... Only ones I've ever been on, but I'm sure there are more.

I was referring to surface-level LRT in response to DKaz's post.