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  #201  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 6:18 AM
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Originally Posted by thurmas View Post
I am glad you pointed out Australia. They are very similar to us yet they spend 1.8% of their gdp on their military while us it's 1.3% Also we are a little more than half the size of France and Britain their militaries are around 250-275,000 regular force members if we cut that in half for our population it should be around 125-135000 members yet we only have 67,000 you could fit our whole armed forces inside montreal's olympic stadium that's pretty sad. The reason for a strong military in the future is for further protection of canadian soverignty in the north while the north west passage melts mean potential BILLIONS for canada in oil revenue.Also a stronger military would ease the strain on our mighty troops in Afghanistan and allow us to have a stronger voice in foreign affairs in places like libya and africa ie:Congo and Darfur.
You need to do some homework.

Let's keep it on the subject of this thread.
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  #202  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
Even then, the aussies have a larger, more capable military than we do. if we spent the same as the aussies on the military we'd have close to 150 000 members in the military, 200+ jet fighters, and 36 warships.
They also have a different set of military threats then we do.

Keep it on the subject of the thread.
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  #203  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 9:25 AM
Vaillant Vaillant is offline
 
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Originally Posted by craneSpotter View Post
I fully support this federal-Ont-Que project. And I'm a westerner!

It would be great for the Canadian economy as a whole, and hopefully give us rail infrastructure that puts us in the HSR leagues with Europe and Japan. To reflect our standing in the world as an affluent G7 nation!

What would this proposed line be - ~1000km? And service 13-14 million Canadians?
service 21millions and honestly if that happen i'll go more often to Toronto, Ottawa and Quebec City!
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  #204  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 1:29 PM
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MolsonExport MolsonExport is offline
 
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^you and me both. Daytrips to Quebec City....that would be awesome.
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  #205  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:22 PM
shreddog shreddog is offline
 
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A couple of things to think about ...

HSR from Windsor to QC is about the same distance as from Marseille to Amsterdam. When it became possible to travel between those two points in the mid 90's the population base was around 60-65M - about 3 times that of the Windsor-QC area.

HSR from Montreal to Toronto is about the same distance as between Paris and Lyon - which was the first real leg of TGV. In early 1980, the population base associated to that leg was around 12-14M - or about 50% more than in the Tor/Mtrl area.

Obviously while HSR from Windsor to QC would be nice, really the only viable route in Canada (and even if that) is the Tor-Mtrl route.
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  #206  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:46 PM
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Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
A couple of things to think about ...

HSR from Windsor to QC is about the same distance as from Marseille to Amsterdam. When it became possible to travel between those two points in the mid 90's the population base was around 60-65M - about 3 times that of the Windsor-QC area.

HSR from Montreal to Toronto is about the same distance as between Paris and Lyon - which was the first real leg of TGV. In early 1980, the population base associated to that leg was around 12-14M - or about 50% more than in the Tor/Mtrl area.

Obviously while HSR from Windsor to QC would be nice, really the only viable route in Canada (and even if that) is the Tor-Mtrl route.
Actually that is pretty close to the current population of the Greater Toronto and Greater Montreal Areas combined. - Obviously people in Europe care more about Public Transit than people in Canada. Even Toronto and Montreal are pretty Auto-Centric. Don't see any level of Government committing any kind of Money to this project anytime soon. More likely than not, the focus will be on improving the regional transportation systems in both cities.
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  #207  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 2:50 PM
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Let's make it happen guys!

Eventually, we should have high speed lines connecting all sizeable cities (this is way down the line of course), but one for the Quebec-Windsor corridor is just so obvious I can't believe how slow our country has been on this.

It should link the cities of Quebec City, Trois Rivieres, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Peterborough, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Brantford, St Catherines-Niagara, Barrie, Kitchener, London, Guelph, Chatham, and Windsor

Perhaps a similar system could work in the west not just in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor but also links to S'toon, Regina, Winnipeg, and or Thunder Bay? Maybe a bit far fetched sure but we need to start thinking about this
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  #208  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 3:32 PM
shreddog shreddog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan View Post
...It should link the cities of Quebec City, Trois Rivieres, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Peterborough, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Brantford, St Catherines-Niagara, Barrie, Kitchener, London, Guelph, Chatham, and Windsor...
Ummm, connecting that many points wouldn't be HSR - it would be Via.

I'm gathering that you've never ridden HSR, have you? (<< not an insult BTW). I suggest you spend some time in Europe or Japan riding HSR and you'll see why that routing could be improved upon.
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  #209  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 3:48 PM
shreddog shreddog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by caltrane74 View Post
Actually that is pretty close to the current population of the Greater Toronto and Greater Montreal Areas combined...
Splitting hairs, but if we appplied the same measures of greater Tor/Mtrl to Paris and Lyon, we probably would have had a catchment of nearly 20M in 1981!

Regardless of the actual population numbers, based on attributes like on PT coverage and usage, car ownership, fuel pricing, built form, etc, it is safe to say that the Tor/Mtrl corridor is the only area of Canada even remotely like the first TGV deployment in France - and then, not really.

While mindsets have changed in the past 30 years, I still don't think that HSR will happen in Canada any time soon.
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  #210  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 4:10 PM
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Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal could most certainly work as a HSR line. Its only 600km. Current population for the line is 11,200,000.

The Paris-Lyon line is 465km and in 1981 (when it opened) had a population of roughly 10,000,000.

The French line had a density of 21,500 people per km of track.

The possible Canadian line has a density of 18,700 people per km of track.


Using 2020 population estimates, the region in Canada will have 13,000,000 people in 2020. That's a density of 21,800 people per km of track.



So while technically, its not as dense as the Paris line was in 1981, it will within 10 years. So now is the time to plan because from initial approval to opening of the line will likely take 10 years.
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  #211  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 5:06 PM
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Anybody read the HSR feasibility study examining a proposed Old Crow - Aklavik line?
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  #212  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 6:13 PM
Mister F Mister F is offline
 
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal could most certainly work as a HSR line. Its only 600km. Current population for the line is 11,200,000.

The Paris-Lyon line is 465km and in 1981 (when it opened) had a population of roughly 10,000,000.

The French line had a density of 21,500 people per km of track.

The possible Canadian line has a density of 18,700 people per km of track.


Using 2020 population estimates, the region in Canada will have 13,000,000 people in 2020. That's a density of 21,800 people per km of track.



So while technically, its not as dense as the Paris line was in 1981, it will within 10 years. So now is the time to plan because from initial approval to opening of the line will likely take 10 years.
A couple others:

The Rome-Milan corridor is 600 km with 8.8 million people.
The Madrid-Seville corridor (first high speed line in Spain) is 580 km with 7.9 million people.

Toronto-Montreal compares favourably with lots of HSR lines around the world.
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  #213  
Old Posted Apr 1, 2011, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by shreddog View Post
Ummm, connecting that many points wouldn't be HSR - it would be Via.

I'm gathering that you've never ridden HSR, have you? (<< not an insult BTW). I suggest you spend some time in Europe or Japan riding HSR and you'll see why that routing could be improved upon.
Yeah....but HIGH SPEED!
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  #214  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2011, 1:43 AM
manrush manrush is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BretttheRiderFan View Post
Let's make it happen guys!

Eventually, we should have high speed lines connecting all sizeable cities (this is way down the line of course), but one for the Quebec-Windsor corridor is just so obvious I can't believe how slow our country has been on this.

It should link the cities of Quebec City, Trois Rivieres, Montreal, Ottawa, Kingston, Peterborough, Oshawa, Toronto, Hamilton, Brantford, St Catherines-Niagara, Barrie, Kitchener, London, Guelph, Chatham, and Windsor

Perhaps a similar system could work in the west not just in the Edmonton-Calgary corridor but also links to S'toon, Regina, Winnipeg, and or Thunder Bay? Maybe a bit far fetched sure but we need to start thinking about this
That defeats the purpose of the high-speed rail line being high speed.
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  #215  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2011, 6:53 AM
isaidso isaidso is online now
 
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Originally Posted by manrush View Post
That defeats the purpose of the high-speed rail line being high speed.
Yeah, it would more likely be a Quebec City-Montreal-Ottawa-Kingston-Toronto-Hamilton-KW-London-Windsor route at the very limit. Even 9 stops is pushing it a little.
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  #216  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2011, 5:59 PM
Mister F Mister F is offline
 
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Guys it's not that complicated to have express trains and local trains on the same tracks...
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  #217  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2011, 12:52 AM
rkannegi rkannegi is offline
 
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Options For Via? (Express Trains and Channel Tunnel style Vehicle Haulage Service)

Having recently ridden on Network Rail here in the UK between Portsmouth and London, I'd would definitely say that it's worth it to it get the Windsor-Quebec Corridor High-speed link going, starting with Toronto-Montreal section (one may want to consider another high-speed line between Ottawa and Montreal).

Express Trains

For now, regardless of how long from now the high-speed rail link will come, Via Rail really should get some express trains going (dedicate some of the existing trains for direct, non-stop service between the major cities), which may make it more attractive (I know that in some cities where express buses were recently laid on, ridership volumes shot through the roof, even in THUNDER BAY, so a similar effect may happen with the trains - on a larger geographic scale though).

Oddly enough, there is still no express trains between Portsmouth and London, even though the line is quite popular in terms of use - in that instance, I'd have it stop Portsmouth Harbour, Portsmouth and South Sea, and Fratton stations to fill up the train on the Portsmouth end to pick up Portsmouth passengers, and then go straight to Vauxhall Station (near MI6 HQ) and Waterloo Station (across the river from Westminster) in London, where most of the passengers would likely get off. A similar scheme could be used for Toronto-Montreal and Ottawa-Montreal, and if possible, Toronto-Ottawa later on. An effort should be made to have direct shuttle service to/from major airports and other transport hubs in those centres, if they can't be served directly by the trains. However, in the case of Network rail in the UK, some stations need to have bypass tracks built around them to allow express trains to pass by them without getting held up behind local "collector" trains, which will be difficult due to the narrow rights-of-way. CN's rights-of-way are usually wider, so implementing express trains might actually be easier (ironically) for Via Rail than it would be for UK's Network Rail, where Via would start to have an "express-collector" train system.

Channel Tunnel Style Vehicle Haulage Service

Via should also look at the possibility of providing vehicle haulage service (number of vehicle cars would be determined by expected demand), similar to the Channel Tunnel Train between Dover, UK and Calais, FR, for those who are making a long trip and plan on staying at the other end for more than a couple of days (renting a car starts getting very expensive when it's more than a few days). Such a move may help attract passengers to Via, who's destination is a good distance from the nearest station (i.e. Thunder Bay-250km from Armstrong Station), or those who are making a long-distance trip , like me, and plan on staying at the other end for a little while.

Real-World Trip Scenario That Many May Encounter

For instance, after I fly into Halifax from Heathrow on Saturday, then I'll be driving (my car) between from Halifax to Cornwall, ON, (in one go) to pickup my friend upon doing an overnight rest stop there, then drive on to Thunder Bay, where I'll stay for 2.5 weeks, except for a trip further on to Brandon, MB (for a few days) in the middle, and then near then end of the month, drive back to Cornwall to drop off my friend, and boot it back to Halifax to catch my return flight back to Heathrow (I have to do a few more weeks of work in the UK before returning back home to Halifax for good). On top of that, Heathrow is two hours away from Portsmouth (be it by train - which has no express service, or by bus - unfortunately, the Hindhead Tunnel on the A3 won't be finished until summer - it's a 1.83km long tunnel under the Town of Hindhead, which will be the longest non-estuarial road tunnel in the UK).

How An Improved Via Service May Play Into This Scenerio

As much as you guys may rightfully laugh about my transport situation (honestly, it has me laughing ), if it was possible fore me to pay an extra few hundred dollars to be able to park my car on a vehicle car on the train (Chunnel-style) in Halifax, I'd probably probably go on the train from Halifax to Armstrong Station and have my friend catch a Cornwall-Montreal bus or train and join my train in Montreal (unless I decide to overnight it in Cornwall, where I would de-board in Montreal and re-board in Ottawa). If car-loading service were to ever be provided (in a feasible manner), I would only expect car loading service to be provided at major cities (or nearest station to a major city), i.e. Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Sudbury, North Bay, Sault-ste-Marie, Thunder Bay (at Armstrong Station), Dryden or Kenora (maybe), Winnipeg). Such a service would really cut down on the driving people would have to do, and it may attract more passengers to the trains, whilst allowing them to drive around freely at their destination without having to rent a vehicle (and also bypass sections of highway the are often congested or that would otherwise be in need of a major upgrade for safety and efficiency reasons).

Closing Caveats

Such a system would still require a significant amount of public consultation and feasibility studies, on top of convincing politicians to support such a system based on real-world priorities (and no just for the sake of getting votes). However, it's still worth it to discuss this.

Regardless, if Via wants to remain viable, they need to completely overhaul their service now.
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  #218  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2011, 1:53 PM
Gerrard Gerrard is offline
 
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Well if Ignatief was a little smarter politically he'd have proposed building this if elected.
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  #219  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2011, 7:37 PM
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To look at the viability of the Toronto-Montreal line (which I believe will get built before a Windsor-Quebec one does) let's compare it to other high speed lines throughout the world.

Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal
Population: 11,200,000
Length: 600km
Density: 18,700 people/km of track

Calgary-Edmonton
Population: 2,500,000
Length: 300km
Density: 8,300 people/km of track

Vancouver-Seattle
Population: 5,800,000
Length: 225km
Density: 25,800 people/km of track


Paris-Lyon (1981 opening)
Population: 10,000,000
Length: 465km
Density: 21,500 people/km of track

Tokyo-Osaka (1964 opening) - most profitable line in the world
Population: 13,500,000
Length: 515km
Density: 26,200 people/km of track

Madrid-Barcelona (2008 opening)
Population: 10,800,000
Length: 621km
Density: 17,400 people/km of track

Bologna-Milano (2008 opening)
Population: 1,700,000
Length: 215km
Density: 7,900 people/km of track

Paris-Strasbourg (2007 opening) - 350km/hr track
Population: 10,500,000
Length: 490km
Density: 21,400 people/km of track

Wuhan- Guangzhou (2009 opening) 350km/hr track
Population: 17,000,000
Length: 970km
Density: 17,500 people/km of track

London-Manchester (planned)
Population: 15,500,000
Length: 340km
Density: 45,600 people/km of track

Northeast Corridor (planned) (Boston-Washington)
Population: 45,500,000
Length: 720km
Density: 63,000 people/km of track



If you look at these lines it quickly becomes apparent that the range in population density is massive. Lines exist at under 8,000 people/km of track while the NEC has a density over 63,000 people/km of track.

The first three are the Canadian tracks. All 3 are denser than several high speed lines throughout the world. Therefore, these are viable. The only thing stopping their creation is politics and ridership, not true viability.

Also, with the density in the northeastern US they could build a 350km/hr line easily.

Last edited by jigglysquishy; Apr 5, 2011 at 8:10 PM.
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  #220  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2011, 8:16 PM
shreddog shreddog is offline
 
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
To look at the viability of the Toronto-Montreal line (which I believe will get built before a Windsor-Quebec one does) let's compare it to other high speed lines throughout the world.
...
If you look at these lines it quickly becomes apparent that the range in population density is massive. Lines exist at under 8,000 people/km of track while the NEC has a density over 63,000 people/km of track.

The first three are the Canadian tracks. All 3 are denser than several high speed lines throughout the world. Therefore, these are viable. The only thing stopping their creation is politics and ridership, not true viability.

Also, with the density in the northeastern US they could build a 350km/hr line easily.
IMHO you are confusing potential population catchments with actual public transit PAX when comparing possible Canadian candidates.

That said, if you really want to make any comparison, using catchment is basically useless. What you really need to compare is the amount of rail PAX before and after the introduction of HSR. Currently there are 6 Via weekday trains between TO-MTRL, 4 between TO-OTT and 6 between OTT-MTRL. Figure out how many PAX that gives you then compare that to the other lines.

I know the answer of what the Lyon-Paris PAX was before HSR but I'll let you figure it out.

BTW, the CALG-EDM rail PAX is real easy to find out!!

Oh, and before you say that there is lots of bus and air PAX between the points, well guess what, there was also lots of air and bus PAX between Lyons and Paris before HSR - and there still is!
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