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  #341  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 5:12 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Found this on youtube when I was poking around. For those of us who weren't able to get the Vancouver and try it out. These are the trains I was suggesting for a streetcar in Halifax!

Video of the Vancouver Streetcar
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  #342  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2011, 6:49 AM
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Fantasy map I submitted for a contest at school:

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  #343  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2011, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith P. View Post
It makes no sense to build something that expensive that is only used for one thing -- one bus an hour after 6PM.
Not bus, but rather rail-based transit. Rail-based rapid transit can move far more people per lane than roadway used for general vehicular traffic. And considering the number of buses that currently cross the MD bridge, I have no clue why anyone would expect it to be under-utilized. A double-track rail connection for LRT or streetcars could potentially transport more people than the triple lane MD bridge. And could do so more quickly.

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Originally Posted by beyeas View Post
If a 3rd crossing is built there is no doubt that it would have to include a crossing for cars. It would make no sense even from an environmental stand-point to force people to drive farther down the harbour to take another bridge.

But, just as you said (LOL), a bridge for only one use isn't a good idea, so any forward-looking crossing project should be mixed use... car lanes with additional lanes with ROW for rapid mass transit. It makes no sense building something that expensive that is used for only one thing!
A bridge for one use... as in only for road traffic?

Something that expensive should have the most efficient use as possible, not the most varied use as possible. Since two lanes of rail can transport far more people than two lanes of road, I fail to see why we need a new crossing for autos when we already have two and when a rail-based rapid transit connection is both the one thing currently missing and the most efficient way to move large numbers of people for the limited funds.

Honestly, building more road capacity is just going to induce more traffic. The North Shore of Vancouver has about twice the population of Dartmouth and Cole Harbour, but has only two more road lanes connecting it to Van. Yes they have a lot of traffic, but so do we, and with less population relative to our crossings. If we want to solve these issues - and plan for the future - we need more efficiency; not just more capacity.
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  #344  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2011, 10:30 AM
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Waye Mason Waye Mason is offline
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From my site:

Quote:
The report says the ferry would run from the current Halifax terminal to the Park and Ride on Hammonds Plains Road via a terminal in Mill Cove in Bedford. It will take about 43 minutes on a normal day, 10 minutes more on a stormy day.

The ferry startup cost is $36 million, and $4.03 million per year to operate.

A train would leave the current train station and stop at Mill Cove. Along the way, though, it would stop at Mumford Road, the old West End Mall, and Rockingham. It will take 38 minutes to service all four stops and then get riders to the same Park and Ride. This service would “require” a shuttle service from downtown. The proposed startup cost is $26 million, and cost $4.25 million to operate, including the “shuttle service” at $253,000.

So the report says HRM could have the starter set of a municipal rail system for $10 million less than the fast ferry, and rail will cost the same to operate each year.
http://halifaxpolitics.ca/2011/03/15/could-rail-be-the-boost-halifax-needs/
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  #345  
Old Posted Mar 18, 2011, 8:41 PM
beyeas beyeas is offline
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post

A bridge for one use... as in only for road traffic?
Trust me, I wasn't advocating for just road use.
I am in agreement that if we are going to build a 3rd crossing (which certainly is inevitable) then we need to be forward thinking enough to ensure rights of way (in addition to car lanes) for public transit, whether that be LRT or BRT.
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  #346  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2011, 1:41 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by alps View Post
Fantasy map I submitted for a contest at school:

This is very interesting. A couple questions though:
How would the train get from Seaport along the waterfront?
Are you suggesting in this that the train would cross the McKay bridge?
Where exactly was Dutch Village station?
You didn't use the rail line along the Dartmouth waterfront - how come?

Interesting graphic. One challenge with rail is getting it across to Dartmouth from Halifax and as beyeas points out - a 3rd crossing (with secured facilities for rail) would eliminate this problem. But would create the additional problem of increased vehicle capacity (unless it was a transit only bridge).

I would not want us to use the BUDD cars for regional rail. They have a horrible speed curve and take a while to get up to speed. With all the stops the report talks about, I'm surprised the time isn't longer. The bus shuttle into downtown isn't so much of a problem; but I'd go one step further and actually have the bus connection also at West End Mall. This would probably be a little closer or easier to the hospital, depending on routing and traffic.
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  #347  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2011, 7:01 AM
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Gah, I made up a nice response and SSP logged me out during the 10 minutes it was struggling to post it. To paraphrase what I wrote before I go to bed...

-I figured it could run on both Hollis and Lower water, the way the Denver LRT goes through the downtown (still permits auto traffic)

-Might use Mackay if that's possible, although a dedicated tunnel would be best so that the station on the Dartmouth side could be closer to BIO/a redeveloped and transit-oriented Shannon Park

-The Dutch Village station would be a kind of convoluted multi-platform thing somewhere around here

-I meant for this to be a viable alternative for suburban commuters to get downtown (a replacement for the highways) and figured the stations around the Circ would have more room for transit-oriented development, and that the communities on the Dartmouth waterfront would be served well enough by the ferries, buses, and Woodland/BIO LRT stations. Note the "greenbelt" -- so as the whole area intensifies these stations would become central than they would be currently.

(I forgot to mention that the aim of the contest was long range planning, so these decisions are all pretty dependent on how certain areas develop...although I don't think it's too unrealistic. I wish I had posted it here for criticism beforehand, though)
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  #348  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2011, 2:47 PM
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I think the argument for the Budd cars is threefold:

1 may be easier to justify or get money out of regional development/acoa because they are being referred in Moncton.

2 even after the modest renovation proposed, there are still serious speed limits in the railway cut.

3 The Budd cars cost less than half what a new car would cost.

That said, I would love it if we did something like the Stadler or the Bombardier cars. You can buy diesel units for about $6.5 mil each, and what is great is they are low floor, built to be allowed to run on freight rail lines (light rail transit can't do that safely) but ALSO able to act as street cars.

BUT, here is the key. There is a $26 million dollar proposal on the table RIGHT now. We could afford this. It saves money over the ferry proposal. If we try and get a gold plated proposal to start, we will end up with nothing. I really think if we get in there with 5 motor and 2 unpowered cars, we can start expanding, adding a stop and a couple of cars every couple of years.

We have all seen quotes for LRT or HRT from $110-650 million dollars. I don't think thats going to happen any time soon, where this proposal could happen next year.
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  #349  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2011, 3:36 PM
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Yes, Dick Carpenter has a very successful business out by the CN Intermodal Facility/hump yard in Moncton where he refurbishes rail cars and locomotives. I could see ACOA getting on board to support a proposal that would increase investment in the region.

$26M is highly affordable.

That being said, if this happens, it should only be considered as being a temporary stopgap. Ultimately, as Halifax grows, it will require a coherent rail based transit strategy, serving a large portion of the metropolitan area.



I like this map very much.

It makes good use of the existing rail infrastructure and incorporates a tram network into the proposal.

The whole system should be electrified. This would make it easier to extent the system along the waterfront (where I presume it would become a subway). I agree with extending the line along the Circumferential in Dartmouth. You do after all want to place the infrastructure where people will use it and with all the shopping and services already along this corridor, it only makes sense. I presume the line along the circ would be elevated.

I agree with halifaxboyns that some consideration should be given to putting a line along the Dartmouth waterfront. There is already a rail ROW there in any event.

How would you propose getting the line across the MacKay bridge? Is there any possibiltiy of putting an extra deck on the bridge or would that just make the bridge too heavy......

Infrastructure like this would cost in the billions but is absolutely vital and necessary in ensuring the future prosperity of HRM. It's not a matter of "should it be done", it's a matter of "when do we do it".

Good work alps
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  #350  
Old Posted Mar 19, 2011, 3:54 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Quote:
That said, I would love it if we did something like the Stadler or the Bombardier cars. You can buy diesel units for about $6.5 mil each, and what is great is they are low floor, built to be allowed to run on freight rail lines (light rail transit can't do that safely) but ALSO able to act as street cars.
Unfortunately the things you describe are designed to operate on european freight lines. Never would get an operating permit for here unless the line was completly either time or spacial separated. The O-Train is an example of this in Ottawa, but Ottawa is a special case since it sees close to zero freight traffic.

Some good diesel multiple units have been ordered from Japan for the Toronto airport project, tagged on a California rail project order. Would work for Halifax.

They were pretty cheap too! and Future compliant with Tier 4 diesel emissions.
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  #351  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 4:06 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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I've been thinking about the comments that have been brought up lately. Firstly, let me agree with Moncton - awesome map alps! It's a great starting point to get people thinking.

While I would normally agree with Waye about getting this up and running sooner rather than later, in this case I don't think cheap is the answer. Like any municipal infrastructure, its an investment. So it's meant to be something that lasts a long time and is well used. But I think we're stuck in a contemporary funding model and don't often think outside of the box in how to fund something like an LRT. Let me give you an example.

I've been harping on about Portland and their streetcar. I have totally fallen for Portland and I am doing a road trip there this summer, I can't wait. Anyway, for those of you who may have an interest and can find it - I highly recommend downloading or purchasing E squared (from PBS) and watching the Portland episode.

When they built their streetcar, it cost about $70 million for the full system and cars. While the city fronted the money to build the system inititally, as time passed the operator approached businesses along the line to get involved in sponsoring the service to reduce operating costs. They ended up getting something like 97% of restaurants in the pearl district and about 80% of businesses along the line sponsor in someway. So they could sponsor a streetcar, a station/stop, buy advertising - you name it. But the revenue from that is what is funding a good portion of the latest expansion of service (which of course will see more sponsorship on those lines).

Now the catch with this was that they built the system and then development came - $3 Billion of mixed use development within 2 blocks of the line. HRM is probably going to be a different story, given it's debt situation and population. So what might have to happen in order to get an LRT system running, is you might have to do the planning work and get developments in first before building the line.

Case in point: Agricola and Quinpool area easy areas where you could change policy and zoning regulations to encourage high densiy mixed use development (and when I say high density, I mean tower up to 30 stories or even higher) and then use where these are to establish lines. I'm sure there are areas in Dartmouth where this could occur too, like Highfield Park. Total opportunity area right there.

Once you have that, then you can establish connection with the businesses along the line and get sponsorship to help defray costs. I'm not talking about just applying a transit tax to their property but genuinly work with them and get them onboard as sponsors. This is what Portland did and when you get on the streetcar, it says - 'Welcome aboard the Portland streetcar - sponsored by Powell's books' (example). This can help offset the cost of an LRT.

The other thing I'd say and repeat, which seems against the way some people think, is that investing in an LRT and creating debt to build it - isn't a bad thing (for me). When you combine that with policy that encourages high density residential or mixed use at the stations, you can easily recoup the cost and pay down the debt with the increased property taxes and business taxes from the commercial element. Just imagine an LRT and streetcar running up and down Hollis and Lower Water going out to Mumford and Lacewood and somehow across to Dartmouth and then up to Burnside? You could easily see huge mixed use Transit villages popping up in Highfield Park, Shannon Park, at Bayer's Road and a better level of multi-residential at Lacewood, with the right policy and zoning regs.


Just my 2...well, probably 25 cents in this case.
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  #352  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 5:05 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Quote:
But the revenue from that is what is funding a good portion of the latest expansion of service
I believe you are talking about frequency, not expansion in the capital sense. very very different.
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  #353  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 6:55 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
I believe you are talking about frequency, not expansion in the capital sense. very very different.
No - the expansion of the portland streetcar is adding several miles of new track, but the proposed frequencies are the same.
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  #354  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 1:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Unfortunately the things you describe are designed to operate on european freight lines. Never would get an operating permit for here unless the line was completly either time or spacial separated. The O-Train is an example of this in Ottawa, but Ottawa is a special case since it sees close to zero freight traffic.
I admit I am no expert, BUT they are running the Stadlers on an active freight line in the Austin Metrolink system in Texas. They are supposed to be built to passenger rail standards, but have the look and feel of a modern street car. Maybe the US eased their standards. I know in the Metrolink case the city spent money upgrading the tracks signalling and automating switches, but it was made to work.


As far as Dartmouth goes, totally agree. Shearwater, Woodside, Alderney, Burnside stops. Bonus in Dartmouth is that Woodside and Aldeney already have STATIONS, you just need platforms at the ferry terminal.

I think phase 2 of the current proposal would be Duke Street and Windsor Junction, maybe Fall River, and phase 3 would be Duke Street to Shearwater as I just described. We could have that in say 5-7 years. But we start with a modest proposal and see if people use the darn thing.
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  #355  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2011, 4:21 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Originally Posted by halifaxboyns View Post
No - the expansion of the portland streetcar is adding several miles of new track, but the proposed frequencies are the same.
The what do you count as a goods portion of funding!

The expansion is funded by:

Where in that is a good portion donated from local businesses? Seems to be negligible on the capital side.

In any case Halifax would need a much more robust system to serve anyone but tourists and hipsters. 12,000 rides a day is pretty hurting for the area served in Portland.
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  #356  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 4:09 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Your right - I was in the office today and checked my notes and sure enough the sponsorship goes towards gross operating costs, so I was going from a flawed memory. I actually have a copy of the report here at home, you'd think I would've checked!

That being said, I don't think 12,000 riders is anything to shake a stick at considering the investment. Portland's 2009 ridership numbers work out to about 11,000 passengers a day and their population is slightly larger than Halifax's. Considering that wiki reports Metro Transit's daily ridership in 2007-08 was about 50,000 per day - that's one fifth of the daily ridership that could be taken up by streetcar. Granted its all estimates for now.

I look at an urban streetcar as an investment, like I said and the city could take two ways to do it: Build it and they will come or come and they will build it (as I call it). They could designate path(s) of the streetcar and then set a determined period of time for policy work and zoning to be changed and construction of new development to occur (say 5 to 10 years). So the route would be designated and then you'd have some development along the line(s). Then after the 5 to 10 years, approve spending and construction of the route(s) and begin operations within 2 years. That's the come and they will build it.

Or, they could approve the route(s) and build it and while construction is occuring the policy/zoning work could occur and then as projects are built, you'd see ridership increase as people choose the streetcar. Either way works, but I see the come and they will build it as a better option because people will be moving their knowing the streetcar is coming.

Either way, there is something that a guy in the e squared episode of Portland that talked about the streetcar. He said that developers look at a streetcar or LRT as a statement of committment from a city to develop an area, because you can't easily move a streetcar/lrt and I believe he's right. I don't understand your comment about a more robust system? Care to explain it?
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  #357  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 4:35 AM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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Quote:
their population is slightly larger than Halifax's.
Approximately 2.2 million people live in the Portland metropolitan area

As for the robust point, the streetcar is not 'first order transit'. It is designed to go slow, and it operates on lighter weight track that can't support larger trains like low floor LRT. If you ever wanted to tie into a higher speed suburban line, you need to build tracks up to LRT standard from the start. Operating joined pairs or more also needs a more robust power supply system.
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  #358  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2011, 4:51 AM
halifaxboyns halifaxboyns is offline
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Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker View Post
Approximately 2.2 million people live in the Portland metropolitan area

As for the robust point, the streetcar is not 'first order transit'. It is designed to go slow, and it operates on lighter weight track that can't support larger trains like low floor LRT. If you ever wanted to tie into a higher speed suburban line, you need to build tracks up to LRT standard from the start. Operating joined pairs or more also needs a more robust power supply system.
I wasn't suggesting that a streetcar and LRT work in tandem on the same track. I know that Portland's is 'supposed' to be, but I know they don't tend to operate that way.

I've always believed that an LRT (be it like Edmonton/Calgary's with an operator or Vancouver's (automated)) would be the best for Halifax and that a streetcar would be an additional mode within a system of bus/BRT/LRT/ferry and streetcar. This way you have the benefit of a multi-modal system with lots of options for interconnection at different points, creating redundancy in the event that one part of the system was suffering problems (break down or traffic issues).

From what I've read the streetcar in Portland wasn't intended to be a regional system, it was intended for operation within the City of Portland. It's the MAX system that provides the regional draw and then feeds into Downtown Portland, operating on street imbeded rails like the streetcar, but not on the same streets (but they do cross each other).
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  #359  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2011, 7:15 PM
manrush manrush is offline
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A good model that Halifax could base itself off is the Rouen tramway (both surface and subsurface stops).


http://www.funimag.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/20071111-001.jpg


http://images.nycsubway.org/logo/title-rouen.jpg
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  #360  
Old Posted May 8, 2011, 7:41 AM
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Quite a handsome looking system and would be an impressive accomplishment for Hfx.

More images available here:

http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/rouen/rouen-tram.htm
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