Calgary Public Transit II

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

I think you and me are looking at different beasts for what a Centre street subway should be. I'm looking at it as serving the inner city with more stops, you are looking at it as all-in-one solution to inner city and 'burb service. I don't think you're wrong to look at it as an all in one 'burb/inner city service either, it's been successful so far for LRT.

Your points about 96th not being a good terminus are valid - at some point service needs to be extended up the ROW on Harvest Hills. However, I'd be looking at building the Nose Creek "express" into downtown, it's going to be cheap compared to the subway, and I think would get built before a subway managed to make it to 96th Ave. I would be looking to run it down the CP ROW into downtown, at this point I think there is time to plan for the room to have 6 tracks, but I'm not sure. 96th Ave would be a transfer point for those wanting a stop/transfer in the north end on the subway before DT.

Fair enough, what you say is reasonable. I think a Nose Creek 'express' from Airdrie to downtown with very limited stops would be cheap and beneficial. Maybe something like this could be used:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/RurtalbahnD%C3%BCren.jpg

If you want to create an inner city transit system from 96th to downtown don't you think a streetcar system would be better?

Obviously it would have it's draw backs compared to a subway.(slower, operating in traffic, less capacity). But in my opinion building an inner city subway would be very expensive so serve a limited number of people. It would be even more expensive if you want to implement more stations along the way.

A subway is faster and therefore serve the burbs better.

Originally Posted by Ferreth

I'm looking at a Google Earth map right now - just looking at the potential development area 600m around a 10th St station, I see the area from 10 o'clock to about 7 o'clock being somewhat limited by the high school and topography for development. Is this what you are referring to? Other than that, I see the whole area between Centre and Edmonton Trail turning into a 3-5 story apartment kind of area especially since you can already walk to DT if you're up for a longer walk.

600m from 10th ave station servely overlaps the 600m radius from 16th ave station. Yes, development could occur on the west side and Yes, Crescent Heights HS does limit growth potential...

So why do you want to put a station at 10th ave. when a station at 24th ave has growth potential in a 600m radius North,South,West,East and Centre?

[UofC.engineer]

More C-train repair news:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainme...ng/4450267/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

Meeting Agenda

http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sirepub/mtgviewer.aspx?meetid=131&doctype=AGENDA

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Fair enough, what you say is reasonable. I think a Nose Creek 'express' from Airdrie to downtown with very limited stops would be cheap and beneficial. Maybe something like this could be used:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/RurtalbahnD%C3%BCren.jpg

If you want to create an inner city transit system from 96th to downtown don't you think a streetcar system would be better?

Obviously it would have it's draw backs compared to a subway.(slower, operating in traffic, less capacity). But in my opinion building an inner city subway would be very expensive so serve a limited number of people. It would be even more expensive if you want to implement more stations along the way.

A subway is faster and therefore serve the burbs better.

I was thinking much the same, but another use for a subway would also be connecting major activity centres that are currently not connected by rail. Not a realistic route but something like Northland Village Mall\Market Mall\Alberta Children's Hospital\Foothills Hospital\Marda Loop\Mount Royal University\Garrison Woods\Rockyview Hospital\Chinook Centre would connect a lot of areas that are already higher density compared to Centre Street.

Another advantage could be to a subway is doing a route that is diagonal to the grid of streets thereby shortening commuting distances.

I think for the cost of the Centre street subway you could prob buy 2+ times the length in light rail if it were run at grade. Just as an example the new Toronto Spadina subway extension is expected to cost $2.4 billion for 8.6 km of track, this compares to $1.0 billion for 8.2 kms on Calgary's West LRT. That's a lot of track for areas that also have more TOD, park'n'ride potential or a a regional connection like to Airdrie. I think assembling land packages for higher density development would also be problematic for growth, much easier to approach things as master planned where you don't have to worry about homeowners that refuse to sell.

Also, I don't know what a geologist would have to say about the lithology for tunneling in Calgary. If it's a lot of loams, clays and gravel as opposed to bedrock it's going to cost a lot more for support structure. Downtown is at a lower elevation so there would also be water pressure to contend with. I have seen a couple aquifers downtown during excavations for parkades. I would think the time savings due to boring quicker in fissile lithology will probably be more than be eaten up by the cost of additional structural supports.

It'd be interesting to see a cost comparison of inner city tramline circulator plus the Nose Creek LRT commuter alignment versus the Centre Street subway alignment, versus a Centre Street alignment that is some combination of at\above\below grade.

Anyways, that's my two cents...

[MalcolmTucker]

You have to remember that a big portion of the cost of the Toronto project is spending $200 million+ on each station which have huge topside amenities to allow for 'freebody transfers'. Keeping things as simple and as small as possible can help keep the costs low.

[Radley77]

Could something like this bike rack be implemented on the C-train for use during offpeak periods?



Could the hourly restrictions for LRT be amended to include provisions to allow bicycles to travel in counterpeak modes. i.e.: out of City Centre in the morning? What about offering a larger fee monthly public transit pass for cyclists on the LRT system to pay for installation?

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

You have to remember that a big portion of the cost of the Toronto project is spending $200 million+ on each station which have huge topside amenities to allow for 'freebody transfers'. Keeping things as simple and as small as possible can help keep the costs low.

I Googled 'Freebody Transfers" term and nothing came up. Can you explain this concept please?

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

If you want to create an inner city transit system from 96th to downtown don't you think a streetcar system would be better?

Obviously it would have it's draw backs compared to a subway.(slower, operating in traffic, less capacity). But in my opinion building an inner city subway would be very expensive so serve a limited number of people. It would be even more expensive if you want to implement more stations along the way.

A subway is faster and therefore serve the burbs better.

I'm not totally against a streetcar - if enough ROW could be found that it can operate in it's own lane it would be an acceptable solution - perhaps operating with the HOV traffic might work too.

I agree that inner city subway would be expensive to serve a limited number of people now that's why I'm dubious about building it anytime soon. If the density can be pushed up first, then build a subway. If a streetcar as an intermediate step can encourage density (without costing too much) that would be good in my books too.

600m from 10th ave station servely overlaps the 600m radius from 16th ave station. Yes, development could occur on the west side and Yes, Crescent Heights HS does limit growth potential...

So why do you want to put a station at 10th ave. when a station at 24th ave has growth potential in a 600m radius North,South,West,East and Centre?

24th Ave has more potential, 10th less, other than closeness to downtown will encourage more density, enough that I think a station would be worth it. I probably mixed up my argument a bit by quoting that 600 m service radius that Calgary Transit uses - I'm thinking 600m *spacing* between stations close in, 800m further out, thus a station at 10th & 16th, along with higher density, 24th and north longer spacing to serve a lower density. I looked at a few other big cities to see what they did, on the premise that some day we'll build something similar. I saw variations, with most stations being 600-800m apart, few at 400m, in a few cases a lot larger gap, usually for an obvious reason such as nothing to service in that area.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

More C-train repair news:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainme...ng/4450267/story.html?cid=megadrop_story

So.... Refurbishing old c-train cars so we can buy new ones later... and building a SE Transitway so that we can build the SELRT later. Both assume that "later" will have more money than we have now. There is a reason that "Short term gain for long term pain" is not a saying.

Sometimes you just have to either bite the bullet and pay for what you need, now, not part of it now and all of it later... or simply saving for later.

Particularly a SE Transitway. Buses can't travel that distance fast enough to make it worth it, shortcuts or not.


Also of note, Calgary Transit E-mail alerts linked me to the details on the Southland closure. There is a map of route 556 from Heritage to Southland, and a schedule for route 556 from Anderson to Southland...

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

I Googled 'Freebody Transfers" term and nothing came up. Can you explain this concept please?

Oh. Since the subway in Toronto is access controlled and allows transfers without paying an extra fare, bus to subway transfer at many if not most stations take place at special bus areas where one gets off the bus directly into the fare paid zone of the subway station. Likewise boarding a bus at a subway station is sped up a bit by the bus driver not having to check tickets, transfers and passes etc.

Great in theory, but because the bus operators never want to be in a situation where there are not enough bus bays, the number of bus bays is usually a tad excessive.

Some stations require transfers to transfer which makes for an annoying day if you forget.

Some of the bus terminals on the Toronto subway extension:



(this last picture is only 1 of 2 bus terminals attached to this station - the second is over the municipal boundary in York Region.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

So.... Refurbishing old c-train cars so we can buy new ones later... and building a SE Transitway so that we can build the SELRT later. Both assume that "later" will have more money than we have now. There is a reason that "Short term gain for long term pain" is not a saying.

Sometimes you just have to either bite the bullet and pay for what you need, now, not part of it now and all of it later... or simply saving for later.

Particularly a SE Transitway. Buses can't travel that distance fast enough to make it worth it, shortcuts or not.


Also of note, Calgary Transit E-mail alerts linked me to the details on the Southland closure. There is a map of route 556 from Heritage to Southland, and a schedule for route 556 from Anderson to Southland...

65-75% cost savings for a car that will add another 50% to it's lifetime sounds like a good deal - IF they can get that kind of life extension. I'd take these to allow more 4 car trains. Especially if they are used only to provide extra capacity during the rush, they might last even longer.

Speaking as someone who might actually use a SE rapid transit if it existed, I'm doubting its worth too. Now, if a bus only lane was built on the Deerfoot, extended into downtown on it's own bus way along the CPR ROW, I think a lot of people would be all over that. But it would be expensive too.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

65-75% cost savings for a car that will add another 50% to it's lifetime sounds like a good deal - IF they can get that kind of life extension. I'd take these to allow more 4 car trains. Especially if they are used only to provide extra capacity during the rush, they might last even longer.

Speaking as someone who might actually use a SE rapid transit if it existed, I'm doubting its worth too. Now, if a bus only lane was built on the Deerfoot, extended into downtown on it's own bus way along the CPR ROW, I think a lot of people would be all over that. But it would be expensive too.

And you touched on the big question and thats IF. Considering Edmonton so far has only a handful of LRV's back that have undergone the refurb by Bombardier, and what was supposed to take a couple months per LRV has taken over a year for some individual LRV's, not to mention that Edmontons were in a lot better condition then ours. That last fact is why I seriously doubt the dollar figure thats being tossed about.

[MalcolmTucker]

Bombardier really wants to break into the Calgary market - let them offer a great deal on new high floor LRVs and shall see. With the seriousness of maintenance Transit seems to be able to do inhouse, I doubt anything short of grafting existing parts onto new car bodies would provide appreciable life extension.

After the first round of fleet renewal CT should cost additional renewal out of the operational budget, Either buying cars as money is available or building up a reserve fund to buy a big order when the resþ of the U2s are needed.

[suburb]

I'm wondering how the Foothills can be serviced better. That campus has like 6,000 car spots, and they are all full at times because it is not easy to get there by bus. I think they should:

Extend bus #8 to Foothills. Currently it goes from NorthPointe (will be the terminus for the North Centre LRT at some point) till University only. I think there are a lot of people along that route that need to get to Foothills, and currently they'd have to transfer for that extra bit from the university.

Other?

From an LRT perspective, I think the NW LRT may need to fork, with the Foothills fork extending to the Children's Hospital/West Campus and then Market Mall. It could then terminate or re-join the main NW line (though ROA North of the Mall would be very problematic.

Of course, a cross town LRT would also be helpful - though the ROA for the 16th ave route would be very difficult. An elevated cross town along 16th would have a fantastic view though Dreaming only - can't see it happen.

[MalcolmTucker]

Eventually if a new cancer centre is built on west campus a people mover shouldn't be that far behind connecting all the hospitals. Much beþter to build that and extend it to the University LRT than any other rail options. Likely much cheaper and decades before other options. Last thing want to do is spur a line - imposes huge costs in the long run.

[freeweed]

2 weeks till the PnR charge goes away. I can't wait to see Crowfoot on April 1st.

[mooky]

Originally Posted by freeweed

2 weeks till the PnR charge goes away. I can't wait to see Crowfoot on April 1st.

I'm dreading Summerset/Bridlewood come April 1. I was there at 7:35am this morning and there was probably somewhere between 6 and 12 spots left in the west side of the PnR lot.

[MalcolmTucker]

I wonder if the charge has caused a pent up demand? Anderson used to not fill up before the charge. Perhaps you will have to make the trek northbound until P&R flirters give up and revert to taking the bus.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by mooky

I'm dreading Summerset/Bridlewood come April 1. I was there at 7:35am this morning and there was probably somewhere between 6 and 12 spots left in the west side of the PnR lot.

Crowfoot generally is like this shortly after 7. It's going to be a gong show.

[J-D]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Oh. Since the subway in Toronto is access controlled and allows transfers without paying an extra fare, bus to subway transfer at many if not most stations take place at special bus areas where one gets off the bus directly into the fare paid zone of the subway station. Likewise boarding a bus at a subway station is sped up a bit by the bus driver not having to check tickets, transfers and passes etc.

Great in theory, but because the bus operators never want to be in a situation where there are not enough bus bays, the number of bus bays is usually a tad excessive.

Some stations require transfers to transfer which makes for an annoying day if you forget.

Some of the bus terminals on the Toronto subway extension:



(this last picture is only 1 of 2 bus terminals attached to this station - the second is over the municipal boundary in York Region.

Surely these pictures are fake... P-p-public washrooms?

[Cage]

Park and Ride Reservations and payment is quite the gong show this morning.

First calgarytransit.com bombed right at 10am. Then no reservations were allowed until 10:30am. By 10:30am you could place yourself onto the reservation wait list. Now the reservation is confirmed but the payment cannot be made.

Currently the parkandride site has this notice:

Due to technical difficulties the On line payment system is not available at this time. However reservations are still being taken. Payments will be accepted for 48 hours at the City of Calgary On line Store or the Calgary Transit Customer Service Centre. Please ensure you save your reservation reference number to provide when making payment. We expect the On line store payment system to be available shortly.

http://www.calgarytransit.com/parkandride/

That said the communication tools have been top notch Twitter feed, email alerts, and the call center have been ontop of everything.