Calgary Public Transit II

[MalcolmTucker]

A half mile, or 800 meters, is pretty well standard for subway lines.

That is way too close. Remember underground stations of the size if we are talking about low floor LRT cost north of $150 million each.

Anyone who says 800 m is ok has never had to actually commute on a line like the Bloor Line in Toronto which has way too many stations. Fully grade separated the speed is effectively 33 kph. It is so slow.

Except in urban cores, or in systems that are not designed to be rapid (like Toronto's planned Eglinton Line) do you see spacing as you say. Purposefully making transit slower while raising the cost a great deal isn't a good recipe for success.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

A half mile, or 800 meters, is pretty well standard for subway lines. The entire point of going underground is to have close station spacing while being able to maintain rapid speeds.

I'd plan the line with stations at 8 Ave, 16 Ave, 24 Ave, 32 Ave, McKnight, Northmount, 64 Ave, 72 Ave, Beddington Boulevard, 96 Ave, and Country Village. 32 Ave, Northmount, and 72 Ave could be built at a later date when more of the corridor has come into its own.

Each station you add to the line adds about 1 minute extra travel time and millions to construction costs. Beyond 6 stations, I would only entertain the idea if a developer is flipping the bill. They can pick their spot within a certain range and develop a TOD.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Only 2 or 3 times the cost... the cost of the West LRT was a heresy in and of itself.

I think that this is the reason that we may just have to agree to disagree. If you felt that the cost of the West LRT line was out of line, nobody will ever be able to convince you that a Centre Street Subway is worth the money.

However, I think your example of the West LRT is proof that the concept of a Centre Street Subway has a good chance of being accepted by Calgarians... When the West LRT was announced, most Calgarians were supportive of the project, if not the timing. The main concerns that were raised involved demands for the LRT to serve more people and to involve more underground or trenched segments... the same arguments that are being made here in support of a Centre Street Subway. The fact that as a condition of construction, the communities surrounding the West LRT were willing to accept Area Redevelopment Plans focused on adding density to their neighbourhoods should also be noted... Again, this is the same argument being made here in support of a Centre Street Subway. Finally, the fact that the West LRT appeared below construction of the SE LRT and the 8th Avenue Subway on all of Calgary Transit's priority lists should also be noted... You have said that people you know at Calgary Transit scoff at the idea of a Centre Street Subway and that a Centre Street Tram was included in recent plans simply to appease a bunch of tree hugging Aldermen. But the point that you miss is that it doesn't matter what the people at Calgary Transit think. One Mayor with an agenda pushed through an entire LRT line that the fine folks at Calgary Transit didn't think would see the light of day in decades. The current council has shown an interest in the idea of a Centre Street Subway... in the end, it is their opinion that matters, and not the powers that be at Calgary Transit.

So really, we just come down to cost. A Centre Street Subway costs more than Nose Creek and realistically that cost difference might be enough to sink the project. However while those odds may be scary right now, they are shaped by the funding model that the City is forced to deal with.... I think that is where the real debate should be. Not in whether or not the route makes sense (I obviously think it does), but what funding options are available to ensure that we can build the LRT network we need and build it right. Where would we be if Bronconnier hadn't been such a champion of getting a slice of the gas tax money for cities? The province has sunk almost $3 Billion in building Calgary's ring road over the last few years... that $3 Billion is about the same price as a Centre Street Subway. There are ways to fund this project whether through different levels of government, innovative taxation schemes or the private sector.... it's just a matter of finding them.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

That is way too close. Remember underground stations of the size if we are talking about low floor LRT cost north of $150 million each.

Anyone who says 800 m is ok has never had to actually commute on a line like the Bloor Line in Toronto which has way too many stations. Fully grade separated the speed is effectively 33 kph. It is so slow.

Except in urban cores, or in systems that are not designed to be rapid (like Toronto's planned Eglinton Line) do you see spacing as you say. Purposefully making transit slower while raising the cost a great deal isn't a good recipe for success.

A lot of stations on the Bloor Line are even closer than 800 meters. They are closer to six hundred, which I agree is too close. 800 meter station spacing would allow faster travel times than on Bloor. 800 is more like Yonge south of Eglinton, the Canada Line, and a multitude of other metro like systems. It is more than fast enough so long as headways are short and people can easily access nearby stations. The trip downtown from the northern terminus would still be much shorter than from Somerset-Bridlewood.

800 meter spacing is simply the ideal way to cover an area like North Central Calgary. The entire corridor would be able to easily reach stations while bus service along the intersecting roads would adequately service areas further away. It takes advantage of the grid that exists by allowing all transit to maintain relatively straight and simple to understand routes. Anything more than 800 meters would start pushing walking distances to stops beyond the 500 meter threshold or cause the busses to detour to be able to reach the stations.

Initially skipping 32 Ave, Northmount, and 72 Ave would, if deemed necessary, constrain costs until such a time that we would want to add them. The important thing would be maintain the option of eventually providing that ideal level of service. This would be akin to the 33 Avenue and 57 Avenue stations on the Canada Line. They were not built because the cost was decided to not be worth it at present. Leaving the rest of route the same though allows for a future ideal layout. If they had instead moved the 49 Ave station to 54 Ave and 41 Ave to 37 it would have permanently ensured a worse route. The stations would essentially be stuck at less than ideal locations and intersecting bus routes would be forced off of the logical main perpendicular roads.

I would be up for looking at a plan that calls for certain essential stations to be paid for as part of the Line and others to be built, at least in part, with funding from an extra property tax levy or developer contributions per resident approval.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Koolfire

I don't see a reason to have a station at 16th ave.

That is the most important station in fact. Every other station (apart from Aurora Park) can be moved 4 or 5 blocks in either direction. The 16th avenue station has to be where it is because of transfers to the 16th avenue BRT. If you don't put a station there you lose all the ridership from North Central Calgary going to the Foothills Hospital/UofC/Children's Hospital (and probably a lot of potential ridership from the SE going to the Foothills Hospital). That is the second biggest employment centre in Calgary. So yeah, there is plenty of reason to have a station at 16th avenue.

[polishavenger]

Looking at google earth and possible nodes that could redevelop or should be serviced by a center street subway, I find that none of the stations need to be less than 800m apart, some are as far as 1.6km. I think we should have stations at 8th Ave, 16th Ave, 28th Ave, then the line should job over to 4th street and have a station at 4th Street and 40th Ave, Northmount and 4th Street, 68th and 4th Street, and Beddington and Center would be the last subway station.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Looking at google earth and possible nodes that could redevelop or should be serviced by a center street subway, I find that none of the stations need to be less than 800m apart, some are as far as 1.6km. I think we should have stations at 8th Ave, 16th Ave, 28th Ave, then the line should job over to 4th street and have a station at 4th Street and 40th Ave, Northmount and 4th Street, 68th and 4th Street, and Beddington and Center would be the last subway station.

All of those stations are in pretty awesome locations. My only question would be how are we going to jump from Centre Street to 4th Street between 28th and 40th?

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by fusili

All of those stations are in pretty awesome locations. My only question would be how are we going to jump from Centre Street to 4th Street between 28th and 40th?

38 Ave would really be the only decent option for making the turns without significant expropriation. That is if CBE doesn't mind a train line running under their fields. It would still add delays and expense that just doesn't seem worth it to save Fowler students a short walk and hit Northmount and 4 St instead of somewhere on Centre.

[polishavenger]

Its a subway, you just go in the direction you need it to go, the only expropriation that has to be done is where stations go. In hong kong they build the subway directly beneath high rises. The only problem is if you are using the cut and cover building technique, which I dont think would work, way to much in terms of disruption.

I dont believe land owner have any rights to the subsurface, so no problems with that.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Its a subway, you just go in the direction you need it to go, the only expropriation that has to be done is where stations go. In hong kong they build the subway directly beneath high rises. The only problem is if you are using the cut and cover building technique, which I dont think would work, way to much in terms of disruption.

I dont believe land owner have any rights to the subsurface, so no problems with that.

The disruption caused by cut and cover would be far less than when the Centre Street Bridge was closed for repairs everywhere except at 16 Ave. It would probably require some kind of temporary traffic circle composed of 1 St NE, 17 Ave, 1 St NW, and 13 Ave.

Tunnel boring would be much more expensive, especially for station construction that would be deep enough to allow the city to dig under people's homes. That is if it is even legal, which I have serious doubts about.

[Ramsayfarian]

Speaking of the LRT, anyone catch this article in The Sun today about a c-train driver doing a crossword whilst operating the lrt?

"The photo, sharp and clear, appears to show the driver, whose face is out of frame, leaning forward on the throttle while writing with the other hand.

Under the pen is a newspaper’s folded up crossword puzzle page.

Though transit officials say they aren’t yet convinced the train was moving, the photographer says it most certainly was — and the speedometer of the train vouches for him, showing 30 km/h."

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2011/03/10/17571781.html

[monocle]

Originally Posted by Ramsayfarian

Speaking of the LRT, anyone catch this article in The Sun today about a c-train driver doing a crossword whilst operating the lrt?

"The photo, sharp and clear, appears to show the driver, whose face is out of frame, leaning forward on the throttle while writing with the other hand.

Under the pen is a newspaper’s folded up crossword puzzle page.

Though transit officials say they aren’t yet convinced the train was moving, the photographer says it most certainly was — and the speedometer of the train vouches for him, showing 30 km/h."

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/columnists/michael_platt/2011/03/10/17571781.html

I'll only be impressed if he's actually left-handed.
OT: are there really still carphones???


Calgary Sun photo

[mersar]

Wow, talk about short notice.

Southland Station will be closed for 6-7 weeks, starting on the 19th according to this notification that CT just sent out while they do the platform replacement. Funny how they could do it at Whitehorn in a weekend though.

[polishavenger]

I would imagine that a boring machine would be needed for the tunnel from eau claire to the north bank. If you are using it for that section, why not do the whole thing, the cost has already been sunk. How about the tunnel from Eau Claire to 10th Ave for the SE line, would that not also be done via tunnel boring machine? If so, just continue up Center Street.

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The disruption caused by cut and cover would be far less than when the Centre Street Bridge was closed for repairs everywhere except at 16 Ave. It would probably require some kind of temporary traffic circle composed of 1 St NE, 17 Ave, 1 St NW, and 13 Ave.

Tunnel boring would be much more expensive, especially for station construction that would be deep enough to allow the city to dig under people's homes. That is if it is even legal, which I have serious doubts about.

[You Need A Thneed]

Originally Posted by mersar

Wow, talk about short notice.

Southland Station will be closed for 6-7 weeks, starting on the 19th according to this notification that CT just sent out while they do the platform replacement. Funny how they could do it at Whitehorn in a weekend though.

Whitehorn was out in the open. The way Southland station is designed, I don't think you can just crane a piece out, and then crane a piece back in, like they could do at Whitehorn.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

I would imagine that a boring machine would be needed for the tunnel from eau claire to the north bank. If you are using it for that section, why not do the whole thing, the cost has already been sunk. How about the tunnel from Eau Claire to 10th Ave for the SE line, would that not also be done via tunnel boring machine? If so, just continue up Center Street.

Same reason the Canada Line was mostly cut and cover despite requiring a TBM for the downtown and False Creek section. It is a lot cheaper and faster to lease the thing for the short period of time required to complete the work that requires it than to use it for the whole line.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by mersar

Wow, talk about short notice.

Southland Station will be closed for 6-7 weeks, starting on the 19th according to this notification that CT just sent out while they do the platform replacement. Funny how they could do it at Whitehorn in a weekend though.

I hope they aren't intending to do this with every station... There are few stations that can be closed without a lot of disruption.

As for why.... maybe the heavy rail tracks? Otherwise the station is surrounded by some greenspace and its own park-and-ride. Particularly since they're only tearing up half the platform last I heard.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

How much of a time savings would the subway save over the 3 south of 64th ave given signal priority?

More than any version of the Nose Creek corridor that interlines with the 202, traffic lights or not.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The South line wasn't poor planning but a reflection of the fact Calgary is a substantially a concentric city and to get to the ridership rich areas you have to pass through the wasteland.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I can understand why proponents would favour the Centre Street LRT as an avenue to intensification, but without it we just seem to be as building a subway for the sake of building a subway.

I argue that Centre St is not wasteland, and further argue that Nose Creek is. Centre St is a ridership-rich area even now, therefore why not have it served by the same rapid transit corridor as the far north? Especially since the NCLRT will only get ridership worth building it if it serves that entire rapid transit corridor.

We are building a subway for the sake of getting our money's worth out of a transit route. Taking into account the cost and effort (and I KNOW it's not going to be easy) Nose Creek is comparatively a waste of our money and time.

And there's an uproar every time we build something anywhere useful.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Look, I think everyone realizes a Centre St LRT is a big hill to climb with lots of challenges and extra costs compared to a Nose Creek Route. The big difference in opinion is whether those challenges and extra costs are worth it.

I think they are, as long as the costs are contained as much as possible and community impact is limited to stations, transitions and guideway (ie: no long distance ROW plowing down housings for kilometers at a time).

Besides for some views on the level of bus service Policy Wonk believes would still be provided in North Central Calgary after the LRT went in, he isn't twisting facts or anything. It would cost a lot more, and zoning to make it worthwhile would be a big fight. Anyone saying a Centre St route would be easy is a fast forgetor of past fights on LRT construction.

Just because someone has different perspectives doesn't mean you have to demonize them.

Exactly.

It's worth the extra cost and challenges. Different perspectives aren't the problem, except for this single one: "Is it worth it"? Pretty much every argument so far has been a good one.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by fusili

That is the most important station in fact. Every other station (apart from Aurora Park) can be moved 4 or 5 blocks in either direction. The 16th avenue station has to be where it is because of transfers to the 16th avenue BRT. If you don't put a station there you lose all the ridership from North Central Calgary going to the Foothills Hospital/UofC/Children's Hospital (and probably a lot of potential ridership from the SE going to the Foothills Hospital). That is the second biggest employment centre in Calgary. So yeah, there is plenty of reason to have a station at 16th avenue.

Well there is a large problem with what you said. There is no 16th ave BRT. And the nice thing about BRT is that it can be routed on to12th ave or ran on 20/24th ave for a short while to get to a station.

Second problem is that NW LRT will take you pretty close to Foothills hospital. And 16th ave BRT will likely run by Loins Gate Station anyways. 16th ave isn't amazingly fast so transferring downtown and at Loins would likely be faster then riding through downtown and transferring at 16th. (Assuming your going to Foothills)

I would only agree with you if there was a LRT or another subway running down 16th that could not be rerouted.