Calgary Public Transit II

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

A commuter service isn't going to have multiple stops within the city before hitting downtown. The CPR simply wouldn't tolerate the disruptions.

The City/Province could purchase the ROW beside the tracks and run a commuter/LRT service during peak times. The service could go from Airdrie to downtown with 4-5 stops. the tie into the NELRT line would not be needed. The biggest problem would be how the future HSR would be affected with this design.

It shouldn't be considered until the gap from Airdrie to Calgary gets developed. 2040? 2050?...We know it's gonna happen one day.

[fusili]

Policy Wonk, I still want you to explain how cutting frequency of the NELRT in half is a better option than a centre street subway.

IMO, the subway portion only has to go slightly north of 16th avenue. After that, at-grade and elevated are options as well.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by mooky

Yes, but won't there be less of them?

That's like saying the 24 Ogden is going to continue running downtown once the SE LRT is in place (whenever that may be) because it has to cross the river too. Makes.zero.sense.

Why not?

Route 9 and Route 10, 57 and others that mirror the LRT for extended distances are still running,

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by fusili

Policy Wonk, I still want you to explain how cutting frequency of the NELRT in half is a better option than a centre street subway.

IMO, the subway portion only has to go slightly north of 16th avenue. After that, at-grade and elevated are options as well.

Sure, right after you explain how you will pay for the Centre Street subway.

The capacity issues on 7th Ave and the need to bury it are completely independent of the N.C. LRT or and other line.

[UofC.engineer]

But wouldn't you agree that once the Airport line and Nosecreek line gets built the service frequency/level to areas North of 96th ave will be severly compromised?

U have a vaild point that the Center street Subway will cost a ton but isn't it worth it in the long run? 2050+

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

But wouldn't you agree that once the Airport line and Nosecreek line gets built the service frequency/level to areas North of 96th ave will be severly compromised?

U have a vaild point that the Center street Subway will cost a ton but isn't it worth it in the long run? 2050+

The frequency problem is due to the access into downtown (there is no planned airport spur, and never has been) splitting the frequency of the NE line. Eventually the need for more frequency would require the downtown segment of the NE-NC-West LRT be underground incurring costs. A north central LRT going up nose creek would necessitate the Stephen Avenue subway being built as well.

With a North central LRT having a separate access to downtown it is hard to forsee that the West - NE LRT would ever need to be grade separated in the core once it is the sole service running on 7th Ave.

[MichaelS]

I would hope that the routes #4, 5 aren't removed if the NCLRT goes up Centre Street. If we want Edmonton Trail to turn into any sort of retail corridor, we would need good transit up and down it, something those routes already do. Curtailing them wouldn't be a good thing IMO.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The frequency problem is due to the access into downtown (there is no planned airport spur, and never has been) splitting the frequency of the NE line.

-I thought the Airport spur was being planned

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I would hope that the routes #4, 5 aren't removed if the NCLRT goes up Centre Street. If we want Edmonton Trail to turn into any sort of retail corridor, we would need good transit up and down it, something those routes already do. Curtailing them wouldn't be a good thing IMO.

^ Sacrifices must be made. Can't do everything.

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

-I thought the Airport spur was being planned

Nope, nada, zippo. The airport plans to build a people mover to connect the terminals, rental car areas, long term parking, and the future high speed rail station (which would be shared by the Nose Creek alignment and would require an extension to the Centre St alignment) sometime in the future however.

LRT to the airport is a HUGE waste until the network is built out. Even then, the business case is dubious - it is more of an ego project.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Sure, right after you explain how you will pay for the Centre Street subway.

The capacity issues on 7th Ave and the need to bury it are completely independent of the N.C. LRT or and other line.

We don't need to bury the NE/West LRT downtown at all and we are not. With the Nose Creek alignment either we will have to build an entirely new access into the downtown, or we will use the NE?West LRT ROW in the downtown, which would necessitate either cutting the frequency of the NELRT in half as compared to the west line frequency (thus always running non-optimal frequencies on either).

Think of it as the current situation, but if the NE and South lines both fed into the NW line, and neither could turn around in the downtown. That is exactly the situation with the Nose Creek alignment. Either the NC LRT lines would have to turn around in the downtown (which would be an operational disaster), or they would have to run down the west line. Therefore, the NELRT and the NCLRT are forced to split the frequency of the West LRT. Not only that, the NELRT requires a higher frequency than the West LRT anyways because of higher ridership. The transit planners know this as much as I do.

This post on HumanTransit explains how splitting lines splits frequency, which is what the issue is here: Branching

[sim]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

How is a route that would efficiently deliver a large number of people to the core an "embarrassment to mass transit"

The plan was suggested in the first place because there are a whole lot of people living in that area who are commuting to the core.

Believe it or not punishing suburbanites for their housing choices does not figure very highly in the route planning of any transit agency.

Well because it would be a route that would then have the potential ability to efficiently bring in twice that many people? I would have to argue that a "whole lot of people" is rather overstated.

If we were to have an already established inner city system, then it might make a shade of sense to lay down oh 10 - 15 km of track that essentially serve nothing. However, we don't, so why in the hell would we plan a line around the inner city, further reinforcing poor development patterns, and throwing away a huged missed opportunity on one of the few corridors that would be ideal.

It has nothing to do with punishing people for their housing choice. The line will still continue on to the Hills. Instead, find me a transit authority (that isn't CT,) that thinks it a good idea to surpass the majority of potential ridership. That of course being only one of many other reasons.

I'm going to put it even more blunt: the prospect of building the line up Nose Creek is completely laughable, and I would sooner see nothing built than that. Put the money somewhere else then. Better than having a billion dollar laughing (rolling) stock.

I appreciate your practicality, and especially concerning the costs as they will be very large, but I somehow also feel that with too much of that kind of attitude, we'd still be riding horses around. Probably true though, we won't see it built any time soon.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by sim

I'm going to put it even more blunt: the prospect of building the line up Nose Creek is completely laughable, and I would sooner see nothing built than that. Put the money somewhere else then. Better than having a billion dollar laughing (rolling) stock.

I agree.

John Hubbell and Neil McKendrick have admitted to me they were "scared" of putting forward a Centre Street route.

That's the -only- reason why the Nose Creek option exists.

My contention is that in the last 30 years there has been no good faith effort by the city to find or protect a Centre Street route.

I don't assume it would be all underground. There's various options. Do you have to stay strictly on Centre Street until Beddington Trail? If yes, then that likely means a lot of underground running.

Again, 8 or 9 years ago I put forward the idea of an open trench for part of the route. It was poo-pooed and now the idea is being used on the West LRT.

I can see all four methods being used, underground, open trench, elevated and ground level.

I've walked between downtown and Beddington Trail at least 8 times over the last 10 years and many shorter walks checking out what could be possible. I've probably made more genuine effort than the city has.

During my talk to city council I suggested that the city -ask- for an increase in the gas tax to help fund the SE/Centre Street route.

I also raised the idea of combining downtown underground LRT work (South/NW and SE/Centre St. at a minumum) with a new Central Library and a new Glenbow Museum. The LRT work would be be funded by more gas tax revenue. The Library/Museum could be funded from the Alberta Lottery Fund.

Cities like Calgary and Vancouver should be approaching Pension Funds to get more TOD projects done. Centre Street is perfect for this. Especially if we're supposed to take Plan It Calgary seriously.

Here's the most recent route I would put forward......

http://www.mapmyrun.com/routes/fullscreen/24611120/

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by fusili

We don't need to bury the NE/West LRT downtown at all and we are not. With the Nose Creek alignment either we will have to build an entirely new access into the downtown, or we will use the NE?West LRT ROW in the downtown, which would necessitate either cutting the frequency of the NELRT in half as compared to the west line frequency (thus always running non-optimal frequencies on either).

Think of it as the current situation, but if the NE and South lines both fed into the NW line, and neither could turn around in the downtown. That is exactly the situation with the Nose Creek alignment. Either the NC LRT lines would have to turn around in the downtown (which would be an operational disaster), or they would have to run down the west line. Therefore, the NELRT and the NCLRT are forced to split the frequency of the West LRT. Not only that, the NELRT requires a higher frequency than the West LRT anyways because of higher ridership. The transit planners know this as much as I do.

This post on HumanTransit explains how splitting lines splits frequency, which is what the issue is here: Branching

You don't need to explain the problem to me, but a subway that will never be built isn't much of a solution.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by sim

Well because it would be a route that would then have the potential ability to efficiently bring in twice that many people? I would have to argue that a "whole lot of people" is rather overstated.

That is just taking for granted the people will exist to be served, the continued growth of the Northern fringe suburbs isn't in doubt. The serious intensification of the Centre Street corridor is unlikely.

If we were to have an already established inner city system, then it might make a shade of sense to lay down oh 10 - 15 km of track that essentially serve nothing. However, we don't, so why in the hell would we plan a line around the inner city, further reinforcing poor development patterns, and throwing away a huged missed opportunity on one of the few corridors that would be ideal.

Well, the purpose of the North Central line has never been to serve the inner city and the Nose Creek alignment is an extremely economical route to the area it is intended to serve. It will be the cheapest track they have ever put down. It also opens up redevelopment opportunities in the Nose Creek wasteland of warehouses and barren golf courses where there are no NIMBY's to wage war.

It has nothing to do with punishing people for their housing choice. The line will still continue on to the Hills. Instead, find me a transit authority (that isn't CT,) that thinks it a good idea to surpass the majority of potential ridership. That of course being only one of many other reasons.

When 2173?

Even if this is built, it will never go an inch past 64th Ave, the costs of reaching the right-of-way north of Beddington Blvd are insurmountable.

I'm going to put it even more blunt: the prospect of building the line up Nose Creek is completely laughable, and I would sooner see nothing built than that. Put the money somewhere else then. Better than having a billion dollar laughing (rolling) stock.

I will be blunter still, the Centre Street subway will NEVER be built. And the great thing about Nose Creek is it wouldn't cost a billion dollars, indeed it will be the cheapest track ever laid.

Nobody is breaking new ground here, these issues were flogged to death twenty five years ago and nothing has really changed in that time other than costs of all kinds have increased.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

My contention is that in the last 30 years there has been no good faith effort by the city to find or protect a Centre Street route.

Well yeah, that would be a little difficult in an area that was built-up over the last 40-70 years.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Because buses travelling downtown will still need to get over the river?



There are solutions to lots of problems when you believe infinite funds are available.



The locals are upset about the baby step intensification already taking place, the subway would be a declaration of war.



The need to bury the LRT on 7th ave is independent of any other issue, a Centre Street LRT is not a solution in and of itself.

Why would as many busses still need to access downtown? In the event of a Centre Street Subway the areas bus service should be entirely reworked. Instead of a system of north-south bus routes we would have west-east routes intersection with subway stations. People would be forced to transfer to the subway.

2 to 2.5 billion is hardly infinite funds. It is expensive but doable for the city. It is not like Vancouver is some entirely different league where projects like this make sense. Paying for it would simply be a matter of saving money every year until the province decides it is in the mood to throw money around, as they periodically do.

Capacity on 7 Ave is not independent of this discussion. The Nose Creek alignment would ensure interlining along 7 Ave. We would hit the maximum capacity at some point and then we would be screwed.

If the added expense of the Centre Street Subway requires us to delay the project for a decade then so be it. If the northern hills communities require LRT service prior to that then a solution could be found. Instead of constructing the Nose Creek alignment we could construct the portion of the N LRT along Harvest Hills Boulevard and then connect it to the NE LRT by following 96 Ave/Airport Trail. It could operate as a spur of the NE LRT or have a transfer when it meets the line. It would not be as rapid but it would provide comparable service to the only area that seems to have mattered in planning the Nose Creek route. The benefit would be that the 96 Ave/Airport Trail section would not be entirely useless after funding availability or capacity problems lead to the construction of the Centre Street Subway. An LRT link between the N LRT and NE LRT serving the Airport and theoretical HSR station would probably be overkill but it would at least provide some benefits after the Harvest Hills ROW is reworked to join the Centre Street Subway. LRT tracks through Nose Creek would be entirely useless after capacity issues force us to eliminate the interlining of the N and NE LRT lines.

[magnetite]

Had a question about the SD-160 model trains. Why do the brakes make a buzzing noise when the train is slowing down?

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by fusili

The Nose Creek Alignment cuts the NELRT frequency in half.

I've always expected that even if they were dumb enough to cheap out on the Nose creek alignment, they'd never even consider interlining, since it doesn't work on lines that have ridership. It hasn't worked the entire time I've lived here. I always figured they'd bridge it over the river and have it interline with the SELRT, worst case scenario.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Why not?
Route 9 and Route 10, 57 and others that mirror the LRT for extended distances are still running,

These function as feeders to the LRT, and are parallel routes, not ones that duplicate the LRT itself. I expect a version of route 24 to be a parallel/feeder for the SELRT in places. But any remaining parts of say, the 3, would barely affect the Centre St bridge.



I kind of wonder why you are arguing; You're doing a very good job of improving every pro-subway argument through practice, and I thank you for that, if not for the pages of reading debate, or for this:

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I will be blunter still, the Centre Street subway will NEVER be built. And the great thing about Nose Creek is it wouldn't cost a billion dollars, indeed it will be the cheapest track ever laid.

This makes me wonder if you're actually serious. If you actually think this, you're in for quite a surprise.

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

No it isn't a bad thing. Personally I would throw the Stephen Ave subway into the project as well to get it all done at once (whats an extra $500 million!). It will be a change however to not have continuous improvement, and how that isn't a bad thing.

Absolutely Agreed! It would feel good even if nothing happened for years, if we have what we need for years.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by magnetite

Had a question about the SD-160 model trains. Why do the brakes make a buzzing noise when the train is slowing down?

I've ALWAYS wanted to know this. Only my headphones keep that sound from driving me nuts.

[Koolfire]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

A commuter service isn't going to have multiple stops within the city before hitting downtown. The CPR simply wouldn't tolerate the disruptions.

Right, so we can build and LRT what can do that on tracks beside CPR mainline and a commuter running on track(s) beside the CPR Mainline. I'm not sure if dual tracks would be necessary for the commuter rail but there is no reason that we couldn't build a separate track within city limits and join up with the regular track outside the city.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

That is just taking for granted the people will exist to be served, the continued growth of the Northern fringe suburbs isn't in doubt. The serious intensification of the Centre Street corridor is unlikely.

I hope the NC LRT doesn't wipeout my existence. It's not about having more riders from existing neighbourhoods but serving existing riders. Even if there is no intensification of the area, what everyone seems to miss is that the area will attract more residents that will ride the LRT to get around. Over years riders will replace non-riders increasing ridership. Non-riders usually will not move as close to station as they don't value the station as much.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Well, the purpose of the North Central line has never been to serve the inner city and the Nose Creek alignment is an extremely economical route to the area it is intended to serve. It will be the cheapest track they have ever put down. It also opens up redevelopment opportunities in the Nose Creek wasteland of warehouses and barren golf courses where there are no NIMBY's to wage war.

Complete BS, look no further then Maxbell station and Mayland Heights industrial. There's even a large area that has been environmentally reclaimed and still undeveloped. And Industrial areas can have just as much NIMBY's as the next neighbourhood but with deeper pockets. There isn't a emotional issue but moving to a new location is costly, very costly so there has to be a huge payoff to move. LRT will NOT increase their property value enough to move. Worse LRT could increase their property taxes causing them to have higher costs.

Second issue is that you will have recreationalist using the path, environmentalists protecting Nose Creek and Nimby's along the rest of the route. I live in Huntington and I'm with Sim, Subway or nothing.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

When 2173?

Even if this is built, it will never go an inch past 64th Ave, the costs of reaching the right-of-way north of Beddington Blvd are insurmountable.

The area between 64 and Beddington Blvd has enough row to run on the surface.

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I will be blunter still, the Centre Street subway will NEVER be built. And the great thing about Nose Creek is it wouldn't cost a billion dollars, indeed it will be the cheapest track ever laid.

How do you figure?

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

Nobody is breaking new ground here, these issues were flogged to death twenty five years ago and nothing has really changed in that time other than costs of all kinds have increased.

25 years ago they had no idea how successful the Ctrain will be and that NE line can't be interlined with the NC line.


I've run the time numbers with and without Nose Creek LRT and the 301 is competitive time-wise all the way from Northe Pointe (North of Country hills Blvd) to downtown. My biggest fear is that an Nose Creek alignment will result in worse service for residents south of Beddington by a drop in bus frequencies and rerouting current routes from downtown to LRT stations which result in longer commutes.