DENVER | Transportation Thread

[SnyderBock]

I think if they finish 60% by 2019, nearly everything (90%) by 2024, except for the Boulder-Longmont NW DMU Rail line, which would be done by 2027 (100%)... That would be fine.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

You are right, I still see it being tunneled through Civic Center then. I guess from Union Station to Civic Center Station all subway and then subway through Civic Center Park and south about a mile, before coming up to elevated. Then run it elevated the rest of the way to Broadway/I-25 Station.

IMO, the problem of connecting Civic Street Station and Union Station should not be dealt with by subway, unless a subway could be laid in a low built up area. This is for both cost and political reasons. The pressure applied by property owners along right-of-ways against subway construction would be formidable.

Remember the Union Station plan started with an open slate. The rail yards were unobstructed in say 1980, but, by 2009 have be selectively infilled, creating the development as is.

I cannot think of a hugely expensive public works project that has ever been built in Colorado, in an environment with large numbers of 10-50 story buildings. And, to me, this reticence will continue in the future.

So, as we are dreaming anyway, let me suggest that the light rail at Union Station be extended east and south back into the Loto road network, following BNSF right way northeast, then turning south in an elevated loop onto Broadway south, then run at street level on Broadway to Colfax where the line would join the D line.

This would cost about as much as 1 km of subway and be far less disruptive, and a huge area of downtown brought into the rail grid.

Besides, if the train was run in a loop back to Union Station, commuters also would get excellent access to the Invesco Field Station to gain access to the West Line, as well as catching southbound light rail traffic.

This would cost about $1 billion.

Of course, ideally, the light rail would travel down 22nd or 23rd Street, but, recent buildup renders such a path way politically impossible.

[trubador]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

I think if they finish 60% by 2019, nearly everything (90%) by 2024, except for the Boulder-Longmont NW DMU Rail line, which would be done by 2027 (100%)... That would be fine.

I thought that was for a .2 increase. I am wondering about the .4 increase. Does it push it out one more year, if they wait until 2012 to take a vote?

[trubador]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

This would cost about as much as 1 km of subway and be far less disruptive, and a huge area of downtown brought into the rail grid.

Besides, if the train was run in a loop back to Union Station, commuters also would get excellent access to the Invesco Field Station to gain access to the West Line, as well as catching southbound light rail traffic.

This would cost about $1 billion.

Of course, ideally, the light rail would travel down 22nd or 23rd Street, but, recent buildup renders such a path way politically impossible.

is subway really $1 billion per km?

[CastleScott]

Heres something I found off progressive railroading dot com:

RTD FasTracks program honored as 'Small Project of the Year'
Two elements of the Regional Transportation District of Denver's (RTD) FasTracks program were honored at the 2011 Women in Transportation Seminar (WTS) awards event held Feb. 24 at Mile High Station in Denver. The award recognizes public and private sector professionals for excellence in transportation.

The RTD systems engineering division received the "Small Project of the Year" award for "innovative systems upgrade solution" as part of a four-car platform extension project completed in December 2010, RTD officials said in a prepared statement.

"This was a very challenging project because we had to work around an existing operating light-rail system," said Pranaya Shrestha, RTD's senior manager of systems engineering and construction. "Our goals were to minimize inconvenience to our customers, maintain a high level of safety and quality, while meeting the schedule and budget."

The project called for expanding power and signal systems to enable RTD to operate four-car light-rail trains to increase rider capacity. The work entailed relocating signal, communication equipment and associated duct banks at the Pepsi, INVESCO Field at Mile High, and Oxford at City of Sheridan and Littleton Mineral stations.

Also at the WTS event, Jacobs Engineering, the prime contractor serving as FasTracks program support consultant, received the WTS Diversity Leadership award for showing "commitment and dedication through its inclusion of small and disadvantaged businesses, as well as a diverse team," RTD officials said.


Scott

[Pizzuti]

Originally Posted by trubador

is subway really $1 billion per km?

It depends on where the subway is, and what you have to maneuver through and how deep it goes, but in any urban context that's the ballpark subways play in. Some on here have argued it's more like a half a billion per mile, so like 1/3 billion per KM... but in any case you would describe it in billions rather than millions.

In NYC a brand new subway line is like 6 billion a mile.

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

It depends on where the subway is, and what you have to maneuver through and how deep it goes, but in any urban context that's the ballpark subways play in. Some on here have argued it's more like a half a billion per mile, so like 1/3 billion per KM... but in any case you would describe it in billions rather than millions.

In NYC a brand new subway line is like 6 billion a mile.

Pizzuti, IMO, is absolutely correct.

Let's say that you were to build a cut and cover subway from the Invesco Light Rail Station to Union Station. Essentially you would cut a trench through an area without build up and cover that with a lid, much in the manner that the Union Station bus terminal has been constructed. As all but the last 500 meters or so would be built in a parking lot, the cost- aside of engineer problems related to ground water- would be far lower than building the light rail under Speer and under the now built up Wewatta, and under the bus concourse. So, to pull a few metaphoric numbers, the subway built through the parking lot might cost $300 million a mile, and, the portion under Speer and then under the Bus Concourse $5 billion or more.

This reflects the primary argument about planning correctly for mass transit before putting in the roadway grid, the plumbing, waste water, etc. Building a subway through a built up area reflects additional costs associated with inconvenience to business along the urban right-of-way as well as rerouting and reconnecting basic services, such as wastewater disposal.

This fact is what has historically frustrated transportation planners when dealing landowners and developers. Transportation planners look at the transportation problem as a question of speed, frequency, and, shortest route, and, while those with ‘skin’ in the game think about how the design will add value to the retail, office, and, residential properties in which they have a financial stake.

For this reason, authoritarian regimes such as in contemporary China build faster, more efficient passenger friendly urban public transport system than we do, in the 21st Century.

[BG918]

Has anyone been to Dallas' Cityplace station? It is underground and next to a dense, mixed-use development in Uptown. I always envisioned something similar in Denver at Union Station, with an underground rail station.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by Pizzuti

It depends on where the subway is, and what you have to maneuver through and how deep it goes, but in any urban context that's the ballpark subways play in. Some on here have argued it's more like a half a billion per mile, so like 1/3 billion per KM... but in any case you would describe it in billions rather than millions.

In NYC a brand new subway line is like 6 billion a mile.

Who wants to be underground in sunny Colorado? An elevated line provides great views and doesn't interfere with pedestrian activity below. Can you imagine the photo ops, not to mention convenience, of stops near Coors field or heading down the "Wallstreet of the Rockies"?

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Fritzdude

Who wants to be underground in sunny Colorado? An elevated line provides great views and doesn't interfere with pedestrian activity below. Can you imagine the photo ops, not to mention convenience, of stops near Coors field or heading down the "Wallstreet of the Rockies"?

All I know is, the last time this debate was had publicly, the "great views" argument lost out overwhelmingly to the "visual blight" argument in the court of public opinion (2001-ish). How can you guys forget the classic, "elevated lines depress neighborhoods, depressed lines elevate them," splashed all over the Denver Post.

I envision the fights that happened in Honolulu, times 5 here. And not from the groups you'd always expect - one of the biggest opponents to Hawaii's elevated train under construction (in my opinion, possibly the best transit project underway anywhere in the U.S.) is the AIA. The elevated aspect of the project has made groups (like architects) who, on any normal day would be staunch transit advocates, into vehement opponents.

[Fritzdude]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

All I know is, the last time this debate was had publicly, the "great views" argument lost out overwhelmingly to the "visual blight" argument in the court of public opinion (2001-ish). How can you guys forget the classic, "elevated lines depress neighborhoods, depressed lines elevate them," splashed all over the Denver Post.

I envision the fights that happened in Honolulu, times 5 here. And not from the groups you'd always expect - one of the biggest opponents to Hawaii's elevated train under construction (in my opinion, possibly the best transit project underway anywhere in the U.S.) is the AIA. The elevated aspect of the project has made groups (like architects) who, on any normal day would be staunch transit advocates, into vehement opponents.

Well, now that several lines are built, no one seems to mind the elevated portions that are running alongside I-25 down south. In fact; I would think if portions of elevated track were put in the CBD, built with the same quality look and appearance, people would sing a newer tune.

[wong21fr]

^Yes, they would sing a different tune.... something along the line of, "why didn't they put them underground?"

The image of an elevated line cutting across Civic Center Park is going to prevent elevated lines from being part of the eventual bottleneck solution to LRT going into DT. Outside of DT, such as down Broadway, is a different scenario though.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

^Yes, they would sing a different tune.... something along the line of, "why didn't they put them underground?"

The image of an elevated line cutting across Civic Center Park is going to prevent elevated lines from being part of the eventual bottleneck solution to LRT going into DT. Outside of DT, such as down Broadway, is a different scenario though.

I honestly still don't get the problem with a central LRT corridor starting at I-25/Broadway and continuing on up to Civic Center Station and then on up to at least 20th/Broadway. Broadway and Lincoln are both wide streets, very wide in fact, and I still can't believe that with all of the current ROW, at least three traffic lanes, one parking lane, and the LRT can't happily coexist. Unlike Colfax, for instance, Broadway and Lincoln are quite wide enough for LRT taking up a full lane of traffic.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Wizened Variations]

[QUOTE=glowrock;5189682]I honestly still don't get the problem with a central LRT corridor starting at I-25/Broadway and continuing on up to Civic Center Station and then on up to at least 20th/Broadway. Broadway and Lincoln are both wide streets, very wide in fact, and I still can't believe that with all of the current ROW, at least three traffic lanes, one parking lane, and the LRT can't happily coexist. Unlike Colfax, for instance, Broadway and Lincoln are quite wide enough for LRT taking up a full lane of traffic.

I think, sir, that the question could be speed versus charm.

The potential traffic capacity from Colfax to Broadway is huge. Run three tracks from Colfax South to Evans, use the center track as an additional heavy travel line (going in the direct of the 'rush.'), run trains every 3 minutes per line with 4 cars a piece and we've talking of BIG volumes of people. 1.5 minute per 2 tracks and 3 minutes per 1 track, for 6 trains per 3 minutes, or 30 seconds per 4 car train.

Let's say the price (this time) of increasing gas price doesn't come back like the last time and people need the train for years. How about 150 people per car x 4 or 600 people, traveling every 30 seconds, so that works out to 72,000 people per hour!

We need to speed up the core of the light rail and feed more and more people down its trunk which runs from Invesco Field Station to Evans.

If you want to really see how good our system can be, ride the light rail from Mineral to Osage. A fast ride with local stopping. (Put in an Express from Mineral to Osage and you would be Averaging 45 mph)

The core exists and will get far more 'big city like' !!

Let us feed it and the transit system will begin to sing.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

The potential traffic capacity from Colfax to Broadway is huge. Run three tracks from Colfax South to Evans, use the center track as an additional heavy travel line (going in the direct of the 'rush.'), run trains every 3 minutes per line with 4 cars a piece and we've talking of BIG volumes of people. 1.5 minute per 2 tracks and 3 minutes per 1 track, for 6 trains per 3 minutes, or 30 seconds per 4 car train.

Let's say the price (this time) of increasing gas price doesn't come back like the last time and people need the train for years. How about 150 people per car x 4 or 600 people, traveling every 30 seconds, so that works out to 72,000 people per hour!

We need to speed up the core of the light rail and feed more and more people down its trunk which runs from Invesco Field Station to Evans.

"BIG volumes" to where, exactly? Invesco (Mile High, please, unless you are a tourist) to Evans is not the problem. Where are these "big volumes" going to go when the downtown line is at capacity? Union Station. And where do those "big volumes" go when the mall shuttle is at capacity? That is how this discussion started.

We'll be singing our praises in running shoes and jogging shorts, when our glorious system (btw, no transit system averages 45 mph overall) drops us two miles from our destination.

[Fritzdude]

Here is an article along with photos about the new high speed rail in Japan. The thing goes over 300mph. Holy crap..

This would get you up to Fort Collins in about 20 minutes..

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/06/hayabusa-high-speed-train-japan_n_832044.html#249685

[Wizened Variations]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

"BIG volumes" to where, exactly? Invesco (Mile High, please, unless you are a tourist) to Evans is not the problem. Where are these "big volumes" going to go when the downtown line is at capacity? Union Station. And where do those "big volumes" go when the mall shuttle is at capacity? That is how this discussion started.

We'll be singing our praises in running shoes and jogging shorts, when our glorious system (btw, no transit system averages 45 mph overall) drops us two miles from our destination.

I also have to admit upfront that due to the influence of Great Divide IPA or two, my figures were off by 100%! The figure is 36,000 riders per hour
3 trains per three tracks per 3 minutes....

But, I agree with your premise about who is going where on a line to nowhere. I too feel blindsided by the absolutely provincial real estate speculation that has marred too much of light rail in Denver. (They don't call Denver a Cow Town for nothing!)

Oh yes, remember I was saying 'No stops" I also was looking at the segment from Evans or Broadway to Colfax. What is that 5 miles, 6? 45 mph without stops would take 8 minutes or so? Sometime ride that segment and time it, subtracting deceleration and acceleration times as a result of Alemeda and Osage stations. Now it takes almost as long to go the 1.5 miles or so from Colfax to Union Station as it does from Colfax to Broadway. The slight straightening resulting from the intellectually 'dumb' West line and Invesco field staion interchange and the 30 seconds reduced by going straight into Union Station might take a minute or so max off the total time, but that raises the average speed from 11 or 12 mph to 13 or 14.

That is NOT true on the southwest line, the Trex line or the central spine.

(My second beer: Mad River Brewing Company Steelhead Double IPA. Last one was a bit foamy because residue yeast had continued fermentaiton.)


But, I have NO money! Had I had access to $10 or so million ten years ago, I would have made a difference in how the silly track path from Colfax to Union Station was laid out, how Union Station ends as a stub station, how the TRex line follows the wrong side of I-25, how light rail trains should either have had low floors or the stations be high platforms. But, I did not...

Like you and others, I am stuck with what is (thank G*d the US produces the best beer on the planet).

So what do we do now? Perhaps, like me, many of the transit and urban planning groupies can regroup and look at what might improve what we have.
And, yes, the system is the mediocre result of too many players who saw nothing beyond light rail as a Lodo development tool.

And, sir, the silliness continues in the new build outs.....

I, for one, am deeply worried that the decline in the economy I see will accelerate and many people, whether they like it or not, will have to take public transportation.

And yes, those who caused this shortsighted solution will adamently admit that 'they' did not see it coming....

So the question is: how- for a relatively small amount of money- do we improve this crazy system that is growing in front of our eyes?

[trubador]

didn't the proposal of union station that was turned down, include tracks that were underground coming into the station? I am thinking we might regret that decision later.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by trubador

didn't the proposal of union station that was turned down, include tracks that were underground coming into the station? I am thinking we might regret that decision later.

It did.. but it also had a lot of other things that in this economy MAY not have gotten done either.

[DenverInfill]

Plus, the feds disallowed the underground stub commuter rail station for safety reasons anyway.