Calgary Public Transit II

[frinkprof]

I pulled the images for just the downtown portion. Rest of the line is in the document.



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Good find UofC.E. I used to check that page on the CT website all the time, but for a long while nothing had been posted there so I stopped checking regularly.

[Wooster]

Also of significance is that this is the first official City document that no longer shows NCLRT going up Nose Creek. It's just under review now.

[outoftheice]

Wooster beat me to it, but those green dots showing the NC LRT routing as under review was the best thing I came across in that document! I was sent an e-mail a while ago stating that public consultation will start in April regarding the NC LRT routing. I look forward to that discussion taking place, and with any luck I'll be able to attend the open houses.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Also of significance is that this is the first official City document that no longer shows NCLRT going up Nose Creek. It's just under review now.

Well not only under review, but the routing shown as under review is up Centre.

[Bassic Lab]

I'm not really liking the placement of the 7 Ave station on those maps. I think it would function better if it was moved a block or so south. As it is, transfers between the three lines seem more difficult than necessary. I guess we'll have to wait for the downtown subway study to see how they plan on integrating them.

[DizzyEdge]

One thing to note, the last page indicates they would need to acquire in full the Lilydale chicken plant at 2126 Hurst Rd SE

Also listed is needing 40% of the Shamrock Hotel property at 2101 11st SE.

[Policy Wonk]

Originally Posted by Wooster

Also of significance is that this is the first official City document that no longer shows NCLRT going up Nose Creek. It's just under review now.

No, you can find some up to the mid-80's with a centre street alignment proposed. But then it was recognized that it was insanity as it will inevitably be again.

I just hope the end result of this doesn't turn out to be neither.

[DizzyEdge]

What about elevated up centre st? you'd have to eliminate on-street parking in order to keep your 4 lanes, but the city could probably deal with that buy buying some property every few blocks and setting up small parking lots. I figure it has to be elevated or underground, there's just too many crossings that would need to be dealt with or cul-de-sac'd otherwise.

[MalcolmTucker]

Elevated through neighborhoods is a big question - will have to see how the Sunalta segment works out for noise exposure. If it works well, it would be a good solution - only need to take out 20 or so houses for a tunnel portal north of 16th Ave by some distance.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

No, you can find some up to the mid-80's with a centre street alignment proposed. But then it was recognized that it was insanity as it will inevitably be again.

I just hope the end result of this doesn't turn out to be neither.

I'm not too sure if it will be viewed as insanity. My understanding is that when the Centre Street route was initially considered in the mid-80's it was dismissed due to the higher cost of construction. While this is still just as true today, I feel that attitudes may have shifted enough that this will no longer be a factor. During the initial construction phases of Calgary's LRT, the emphasis was placed on laying down as much track and reaching as many people as cheaply as possible. This is one of the main reasons Calgary chose to leave the LRT line above ground through the downtown core. In my opinion, choosing this approach was the right thing to do at the time. However as we now re-examine the NC LRT, things are very different.

By the time construction begins on the NC LRT line, Calgary's LRT network will essentially be built out, allowing for more of an emphasis to be placed on quality over quantity when it comes to construction dollars. The general attitudes of Calgarians have also started to shift. One simply has to look at the Airport Tunnel and the West LRT to see that Calgarians have shown that they would rather the government spend more money to get it right instead of simply getting it done. However I feel that the biggest reason is that the City has started to show it is willing to consider more than just construction cost when it comes to projects.

For the sake of argument, let's say that building the NC LRT up Centre Street will cost $3 Billion. Building the line up Nose Creek will cost $1 Billion. If you are simply comparing construction cost, the $2 Billion in extra cost doesn't seem worth it. However, during the Plan It Calgary discussions, sit was revealed that if the City continues to allow sprawl on its edges, tax-payers will be on the hook for over $11 Billion in infrastructure costs. These costs could be avoided by encouraging intensification through-out Calgary. Building the NC LRT up Nose Creek completely by-passes existing communities to serve the suburbs on the edge of Calgary. This option will only serve to further sprawl. Building the line up Centre Street and creating an Area Redevelopment Plan would open up an 8km corridor for mid-rise development and have a ripple effect of intensification in existing communities. If this intensification prevents some of the sprawl from occuring along the City's edge, it could mean that the $2 Billion in extra construction cost will also eliminate $2 Billion in future infrastructure spending that we otherwise would have had to spend. In this scenario, the more expensive option to build now, ends up being cost neutral in the long run.... All that's missing is for the City to acknowledge it.

[Policy Wonk]

It would cost billions for no tangible benefit over Nose Creek. The purpose of the N.C. LRT is to connect the LRT to the communities north of Country Hill Blvd as served by the 301 and not to turn Centre Street into Younge Street. Even with the N.C. LRT on Centre Street the existing bus routes would remain substantially unchanged and intensification of the communities along Centre Street would be a war of proportions this city has never seen. Anyone remember the war over the Sunnyside LRT? Lets just ratchet that up by a magnitude of 10,000.

[MalcolmTucker]

outoftheice ^ The question in the above example would any politician have the cojones to say the NC LRT doesn't get built until surround communities allow supportive zoning.

I would bet not.

Policy Wonk ^

not to turn Centre Street into Younge Street

Could at least try, but as I said above, would be pretty hard to get the zoning to where it needs to be to support the expense. Would have to tie the two together.

[Policy Wonk]

No LRT in exchange for no upzoning? The surrounding communities would think that is a bargain. A serious deviation from the Nose Creek plan will only serve to guarantee the N.C. LRT is never built, I don't think that is a positive outcome.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

It would cost billions for no tangible benefit over Nose Creek. The purpose of the N.C. LRT is to connect the LRT to the communities north of Country Hill Blvd as served by the 301 and not to turn Centre Street into Younge Street. Even with the N.C. LRT on Centre Street the existing bus routes would remain substantially unchanged and intensification of the communities along Centre Street would be a war of proportions this city has never seen. Anyone remember the war over the Sunnyside LRT? Lets just ratchet that up by a magnitude of 10,000.

It would be a war, but not so much about the subway, it would be about the densification required to support a subway (anything above ground ain't going to work - no one wants to be beside or under it); Sunnyside being the poster child for war against densification in Calgary. I would consider it a pre-requisite to at least start moving the density up along Centre st. before a subway gets built. It would also make it easier to build, say, DT - 30th Ave as a phase 1, as at least some of the density would be there to support a subway.

If the city can't push higher density zoning along Centre without getting their political panties in a knot, they might as well just build Nose Creek and service the far north on the existing alignment.

[DarkKeyo]

I'm not going to wade into what looks like a repetitive debate that has been done before.

But I am going to call you out on this:

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

The purpose of the N.C. LRT is to connect the LRT to the communities north of Country Hill Blvd as served by the 301 and not to turn Centre Street into Younge Street.

The purpose of any of our LRT lines is NOT to provide an express service to people who live in the suburbs at the far ends of the lines. The purpose of the line isn't to "turn Centre St into Yonge St" either. The former is a minor function of LRT, one that gets way too much priority sometimes, and the latter is a benefit.

The purpose of an LRT line is to connect parts of Calgary to other parts of Calgary with Rapid Transit. With, since this is Calgary, an emphasis on connecting the high-density city core with everywhere else. It is not only a commuter train, or a series of short-range connections between local areas. We have a *system* that is both of those and more. We built a system that functions as several things at once, and we have to live with that.

You can't prioritize the people living in one area, such as the Northern Hills or whatever they call that area, over people living anywhere else along the potential routes.

Therefore, all other considerations aside, the NCLRT has to travel a route that will not bypass most of the city, and therefore it is a waste of a lot of money and time to build it along Nose Creek.

As for intensification, I'm pretty sure that Yonge St, since you used that example, developed into what it is partly because the subway was there in the first place, and a streetcar route before it in the same corridor.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ The only reason the NCLRT is in the plan at all is because of the northern hills communities - just like how the south east LRT plan exists because of the deep SE communities and the fact that the spur down Anderson turned out to be a very bad idea due to high ridership on the south line.

In this case DarkKeyo Policy Wonk is technically correct: The best kind of correct!

But that doesn't mean it can't be both a fast system for the suburbs and a good internal system.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ The only reason the NCLRT is in the plan at all is because of the northern hills communities - just like how the south east LRT plan exists because of the deep SE communities and the fact that the spur down Anderson turned out to be a very bad idea due to high ridership on the south line.

In this case DarkKeyo Policy Wonk is technically correct: The best kind of correct!

But that doesn't mean it can't be both a fast system for the suburbs and a good internal system.

If you read the SELRT study posted earlier, it divides the areas it serves into 4 groups. The far SE communities make up only two of those: Established and Developing. See page 9.

And there seems to be a lot of discussion about building only half the line because of available funds. While this is a bad idea, since it ignores that half of the ridership, it shows that the far SE is not the ONLY reason the line is built. If it were there would never be the stupid question of building half a line. Realistically, a line that you have to reach by a long drive or bus ride from the SE communities is not going to get any ridership from the SE communities.

But, I agree that it can be both a fast system for the suburbs and a good internal system, and add to that that it *must* be. That's the "tangible benefit" that Policy Wonk said is missing.

I encourage you, Policy Wonk, to respond to my point here. I want to know your thoughts on that benefit.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

No, you can find some up to the mid-80's with a centre street alignment proposed. But then it was recognized that it was insanity as it will inevitably be again.

I just hope the end result of this doesn't turn out to be neither.

Forget densification, the transfer station to the 16th Avenue BRT and many arguments for the Centre Street alignment vs. Nose Creek. Perhaps the greatest reason for Centre Street is simply this: The Nose Creek Alignment cuts the NELRT frequency in half. That alone is enough reason to find an alternative alignment.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

...it was recognized that it was insanity as it will inevitably be again.

Please. The Nose Creek route is moronic.

Centre Street is the common sense route.

Yes, there was an official attempt to spin a Nose Creek NCLRT as mainly geared to the northern suburbs and Centre Street might get a pretty "streetcar".

I wrote a letter 8 or 9 years ago, I believe I described the Nose Creek route as "taking stupidity to a new extreme". It put a lot of planners' noses out of joint at city hall.

However....my description was true then and is still true today.

I addressed city council at the end of October and I plainly stated that Nose Creek was unacceptable and that SE LRT and a Centre Street LRT should be a combined route.

I love this concept that we're going to have a much higher density city, yet we are, it seems, going to try and put bubbles around scores of communities.

Calgary needs more than six legs of LRT. I'm fighting for more than six. I'm fighting for some sort of Centre Street LRT. Nose Creek ain't going to happen.

[UofC.engineer]

P3 the Center Street Subway! Com'on Sir.Humphrey.Appleby back me up here!

I also think the Douglasdale station is a complete waste of money making it grade separated. The is no reason for a bridge to be built over 29th street.