Calgary Public Transit II

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Pretty soon the average senior will be a baby boomer; do we really want to respect them? Think of the seventies and shudder.

I just had to re-quote this post for its pure awesomeness (plus there's a point below).

This is an issue I'm torn on. For seniors who truly are stuck with "just transit" and don't have a lot of money, I'm perfectly happy with letting them ride for free. They've done their time, they've made their contribution to society. By definition, everything we do for seniors is in recognition of that (what, you really didn't think our healthcare costs are proportional to anything, did you?). Hell, seniors get free university education in this country and that costs a — of a lot more than a silly bus pass.

However, I'm torn because a LOT of seniors have a LOT of money. Especially the above-mentioned boomers. They may be the first - and likely last - generation to retire on average MORE wealthy than when they were working. I'm watching it right now and it's disgusting how entitled to their "freedom 55" they feel. Even as it destroys companies and government budgets. But hey, so long as they can make $80,000/yr after working for a whopping 30, I guess they've "earned it".

Yeah, the anti-boomer angst comes out sometimes.

Now the only question for fusilli and frink is whether I'm older or younger than the boomers.

Oh, and as to why we wouldn't do the same for teenagers - um, really? Teenagers and college kids can WORK. They can try to earn their way in this world. Seniors already have, for the most part, and most of them cannot anymore. That's why they get discounts everywhere, that's why we gladly pay 95% (or whatever) of our healthcare costs for them, that's why we "respect" them more. They've done their part. What has a teenager ever done if they're already begging for discounted bus passes?

There's an implicit realization in most of us that some day, we'll be a senior citizen as well. So we'd like to think we'll be treated well at that point, and structure society accordingly. But none of us sit back and think "damn, I wish kids today had it easier than I did, let's help them out". At least no one I know. But I only hang out with other old farts so my judgement may be clouded.

[93JC]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I'm torn because a LOT of seniors have a LOT of money.

Those seniors aren't going to take transit anyway.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I know we were all raised to respect seniors but when we were little seniors were the people who beat the Nazis; they deserved our respect. Pretty soon the average senior will be a baby boomer; do we really want to respect them? Think of the seventies and shudder.

Not to go off topic, but that is such a great point. When I think of the pre-war generation, I think how terrible a situation they went through, how strong they were to get through it, and how little they complain now (when you've been through a war, somehow traffic and taxes don't seem that much of a problem). Boomers, on the other hand, IMO, are the laziest, most spoiled, most demanding and selfish generation ever. Just a comparison of what my family went through:

Stuff my grandparents went through: Dysentry. War. Getting shot twice Escaping East Berlin. Working three jobs to support your family. Separation from husband during war and not knowing what happened to him. Living in a POW camp for 3 years. Being born in POW camp. Surviving the Burma Railroad.

Stuff my parents went through: High school was socially awkward.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Most seniors got their licenses taken away(Thank God), so I think making them pay $35 a year is reasonable.

That's a good point. Many don't have the option to drive, so that should be a consideration. Perhaps $100 per year with a further discount for low income. On first thought I was thinking half of the regular fare, but that would be a huge issue for many I think.

Tangential items:
- why is there not a yearly pass for adults and youth that can be a further 10% off the cumulative monthly passes?
- on the flip-side why is there not a monthly or per ride fare for seniors? Perhaps for ones who are only taking a couple trips, they could simply opt for the youth fare / youth bus tickets.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Not to go off topic, but that is such a great point. When I think of the pre-war generation, I think how terrible a situation they went through, how strong they were to get through it, and how little they complain now (when you've been through a war, somehow traffic and taxes don't seem that much of a problem). Boomers, on the other hand, IMO, are the laziest, most spoiled, most demanding and selfish generation ever. Just a comparison of what my family went through:

Stuff my grandparents went through: Dysentry. War. Getting shot twice Escaping East Berlin. Working three jobs to support your family. Separation from husband during war and not knowing what happened to him. Living in a POW camp for 3 years. Being born in POW camp. Surviving the Burma Railroad.

Stuff my parents went through: High school was socially awkward.

You have no idea what senior did what - so I think this train of thought is a real dud.

[kw5150]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

That can describe many people who are not seniors.

Yes, but many of those people are more able than a disabled senior. Anyway, I think people know what I mean.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by 93JC

Those seniors aren't going to take transit anyway.

Good point. Except the ones who can no longer drive. When I said a LOT of money, I didn't mean millionaires. But I did mean people with more than enough money to afford a bus pass every month.

Still a good point. I think the intersection between "has plenty of money" and "has to take transit" might be small. Then again, aren't we trying to encourage EVERYONE to take transit as much as possible?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by freeweed

There's an implicit realization in most of us that some day, we'll be a senior citizen as well. So we'd like to think we'll be treated well at that point, and structure society accordingly. But none of us sit back and think "damn, I wish kids today had it easier than I did, let's help them out". At least no one I know. But I only hang out with other old farts so my judgement may be clouded.

Won't someone PLEASE think of the children?!?

I just said teenagers because I was just picking random demographic groups. Maybe a bad choice for groups we all respect. I should have said blood donors instead. Show your Canadian Blood Services card, get a free transit ride.... As suburb pointed out, we don't know the back story of every senior, so saying we should give them free transit out of respect is just blind agism. How do you know that senior made their contribution to society, and thus deserves the free transit ride? Simply because they are old? What if they were a bum that lived off welfare their whole life, and didn't contribute to anything?

Edit: I just had to edit this because the more I thought of it, the more I couldn't believe that you actually think people don't think about making things better for children. I am not a parent, but I am guessing that almost all parents do almost everything, trying to make their children's lives better/easier than theirs were. Maybe some of the forumers with children can comment to this.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburb

You have no idea what senior did what - so I think this train of thought is a real dud.

Well, I do know what my grandparents went through, and what every single family in Europe went through. There was a war. I think we can generalize about conditions during war in that they were worse.

[suburb]

Originally Posted by fusili

Well, I do know what my grandparents went through, and what every single family in Europe went through. There was a war. I think we can generalize about conditions during war in that they were worse.

You can absolutely generalize about the folks for whom you are aware, but you cannot apply that to what should happen for all portions of Calgary's senior population in context of bus passes. Your suggestion, as an example, that the boomer age are lazy maybe true for the specific portion of the demographic for which you were referring, but not for Calgary as a whole.

[Ferreth]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Edit: I just had to edit this because the more I thought of it, the more I couldn't believe that you actually think people don't think about making things better for children. I am not a parent, but I am guessing that almost all parents do almost everything, trying to make their children's lives better/easier than theirs were. Maybe some of the forumers with children can comment to this.

Every parent (I'd hope) wants better things for their children. The problem these days is that in the process of providing everything to little Johnny and Sally Appleseed, the parents forgot to teach them how to deal with the big bad world. I know many adults who still go to their parents for handouts, not because they need them, but because they want something and mommy/daddy have always provided before. I personally prefer boomers, because they at least had to work - they were just fortunate to be working at a very prosperous time in our society. The children of boomers though - that is the spoiled generation that we are now dealing with in work force. I can't complain too much though - being in between, I look good in comparison to the "Y" generation coming up below me and am nicely situated to move into those retiring boomer jobs.

And yes, everything above is a generalization!

[outoftheice]

Calgary Transit has an interesting video on their website right now. It's mainly a PR piece, but there's some interesting footage showing behind the scenes stuff. I thought it would be something my fellow transit geeks on here might enjoy

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/behind_the_scenes_2011.html

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Every parent (I'd hope) wants better things for their children. The problem these days is that in the process of providing everything to little Johnny and Sally Appleseed, the parents forgot to teach them how to deal with the big bad world. I know many adults who still go to their parents for handouts, not because they need them, but because they want something and mommy/daddy have always provided before. I personally prefer boomers, because they at least had to work - they were just fortunate to be working at a very prosperous time in our society. The children of boomers though - that is the spoiled generation that we are now dealing with in work force. I can't complain too much though - being in between, I look good in comparison to the "Y" generation coming up below me and am nicely situated to move into those retiring boomer jobs.

And yes, everything above is a generalization!

By making things better or easier, I don't necessarily mean material things. I just think most parents put their children's welfare first, wanting them to have as best of life as possible.

I certainly see instances that support your views though.

[The Avid Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

To really save money you have to be like how the Canada Line was planned. It was tendered as 'we need a line that travels this corridor, with stations at approximately these locations, that can carry this many people an hour, that can make the trip in this amount of time, and it has to be automated'.

You make some good points Sir Humph/MalcolmTucker

One issue I had with Canada Line implementation was, due to the contractual arrangement you described, there was little opportunity for public input on Station design. For example, most stations only have one entrance/exit which severely restricts how the station can interface with the pedestrian realm/bus transfers. One might argue that you just need to put that in the tender specs, but it does identify one of the short comings of this type of design framework.

Additionally, SNC selected building materials that had many VOCs (volatile organic compounds for the non-chemistry folk) to save money which is having a notable impact on station air quality. I always dread walking into Canada Line stations and smelling "that smell". And those materials were selected because they were cheap and the tender spec's didn't include any requirements regarding material selection. Those stations will be off-gassing for a long time. I'm considering carrying a thermal-desorption tubes through various stations and submitting to a commercial lab at my own expense to determine the VOC content of station air quality. Still cost prohibitive for me at this point. I'll post results when I can get that project off the ground.

To reiterate, you make some good points. I just wanted to expose a few of the short comings in design when tender spec's don't consider ALL relevant aspects of design when they are written and request proposal

[gammell]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

Calgary Transit has an interesting video on their website right now. It's mainly a PR piece, but there's some interesting footage showing behind the scenes stuff. I thought it would be something my fellow transit geeks on here might enjoy

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/behind_the_scenes_2011.html

That's a very well executed PR piece. Good catch.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburb

You can absolutely generalize about the folks for whom you are aware, but you cannot apply that to what should happen for all portions of Calgary's senior population in context of bus passes. Your suggestion, as an example, that the boomer age are lazy maybe true for the specific portion of the demographic for which you were referring, but not for Calgary as a whole.

I wasn't commenting on the buss pass situation, just a completely off-topic comment comparing the experiences and attitudes of the pre-war and post-war generations. Nothing to do with transit passes at all.

[UofC.engineer]

New SE LRT Study out:

http://www.calgarytransit.com/html/reports_surveys.html

[srperrycgy]

Excellent find. Thanks.

[UofC.engineer]

I like option 2D better. Keeps the cars separated from the track more

[MalcolmTucker]

With what I see in the study, I am guessing we will end up with an elevated approach into downtown with a direct plunge from elevated to underground before the turn north bound.

The two options just cross too many streets as is. And can't go underground before Macleod Tr due to conflict with the existing tunnel me thinks.