LOS ANGELES | Downtown Project Rundown 4.0

[tommaso]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesBeauty

You'll probably be singing the same tune until the Expo Line reaches Santa Monica, Purple Line to UCLA, and DT Connector funnels everyone in from the suburbs into the city providing the kind of energy you're searching for in a CITY.

Energy depends on walking and until there is transit, there will be no walking in this city on the level you are desiring. Perhaps you should move away and come back in 2022 when all the lines are done. I am pretty sure by then, LA will be the kind of city that "loves you back."

Thanks for understanding I know how to work around this issue. I just have to be very active, keep myself very busy to feel like I'm making L.A. enjoyable. But, it's an uphill battle and I fight it everyday. I respect this city and I make positive contributions everyday. I pray that we can be more together moving forward in this city, just the way we are on our forum. I like the fact that I can find you guys here anytime and I like my city to behave the same way

[LosAngelesDreamin]

What do you guys think of 7th st having some high end and regular fashion stores?? some historic buildings would look really nice... for example 7th and hill... the buildings there would look so San Fran or New York if they were changed to say a Forever 21 or Gucci Flagship on the North building, Movado on the East bldg, Kay Jewlers on the south bldg.

Maybe its just me but 7th st is a nice area to become the high end fashion street of dtla since the fashion district fails to be very couture and sophisticated. I really wanna see Los Angeles as a fashion hub of the west coast in the near future on the same caliber as New York City.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by patriotizzy

Some of the streets in LA remind me of Latin American towns.

I agree... especially The older historic parts of dtla, there's a lot of signs in spanish.. why bother going there if you can't understand what some of those signs even says?? not very welcoming for the other ethnic backgrounds. i understand chinatown.. i mean c'mon its chinatown... but if say broadway was part of like a LittleMexico or LatinTown i wouldnt mind the spanish stuff. That isnt the case though. Broadway is uniquely american, it was suppose to be like broadway of new york in the first place.. we should keep it like how it looked in its golden days.

[tommaso]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesDreamin

What do you guys think of 7th st having some high end and regular fashion stores?? some historic buildings would look really nice... for example 7th and hill... the buildings there would look so San Fran or New York if they were changed to say a Forever 21 or Gucci Flagship on the North building, Movado on the East bldg, Kay Jewlers on the south bldg.

Maybe its just me but 7th st is a nice area to become the high end fashion street of dtla since the fashion district fails to be very couture and sophisticated. I really wanna see Los Angeles as a fashion hub of the west coast in the near future on the same caliber as New York City.

Only a fool wouldn't understand this. I walk down these streets and I see this all the time. It makes perfect sense. But, what are we gonna do about Beverly Hills. It's preventing DT from flourishing. That's the problem. We can't blow up the suburbs now. It's too late. I want Gucci and whatever you want flagships in DTLA, but we gotta figure out how we're gonna deal with Beverly Hills now and that's a hell of an argument. It's a good fight though, but Gucci won't be in DTLA even in 2025. I hope I'm wrong, but the rich folks here seem to like their palaces in the hills too much to embrace city filth and glamor en masse. I'm not depressed. I gave up my what ifs, now I'm focused on I'm happy with me and my life. I can't focus on this city not doing city things. I'm too small and I don't want to be crushed, so I live my life without getting angry

[northbay]

tommaso, i love your posts. they make me smile

[pesto]

Originally Posted by DistrictDirt

Maybe its my imagination, but it certainly seems like there's more middle-class "discretionary riders" on the 720 than there was when I first got here, a little over a year ago. Always a lot of European and Asian tourists too- for them, riding the bus is old hat.

I'm sure this is true. From discussions with hotel owners on Wilshire, at least two of them have changed their marketing to focus on European tourism. Obviously, several in Ktown already focus on Asian tourism.

I would hope that the vistors bureau prepares local "transit-tourism" guides, because if you are in DT, Ktown or Hollywood, you can spend several days on the subway or Wilshire buses and see most of the sights: Venice, SM, Westwood, Century City, BH, LACMA, Wilshire, DT, Hollywood, Universal, Pasadena.

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by tommaso

Only a fool wouldn't understand this. I walk down these streets and I see this all the time. It makes perfect sense. But, what are we gonna do about Beverly Hills. It's preventing DT from flourishing. That's the problem. We can't blow up the suburbs now. It's too late. I want Gucci and whatever you want flagships in DTLA, but we gotta figure out how we're gonna deal with Beverly Hills now and that's a hell of an argument. It's a good fight though, but Gucci won't be in DTLA even in 2025. I hope I'm wrong, but the rich folks here seem to like their palaces in the hills too much to embrace city filth and glamor en masse. I'm not depressed. I gave up my what ifs, now I'm focused on I'm happy with me and my life. I can't focus on this city not doing city things. I'm too small and I don't want to be crushed, so I live my life without getting angry

yeaa i thought about that.. =/ unfortunately we cant bomb the suburbs, newaise. But so many events and conventions happen in dtla.. even if there is a beverly hills... all the tourist and celebrities aren't gonna go from dtla to bh just to purchase all these fabulous accessories and clothes. If dtla did have that fashion hub on 7th st all the celebs and tourist would simply walk or ride the streetcar(should be done by then) to the stores from the conventions or grammy awards, laker game, or concerts in southpark. instead of going all the way to bh by car they could stay in dtla and shop on 7th st =D

[edluva]

i think it's idiotic to want dtla to be everything to everybody. you guys act as though dtla is our manhattan. it's just a tiny hood among many hoods in la. get over it.

what is this obsession with getting big euro houses like gucci and lv into downtown? what does that accomplish? where are all the posh designer flagships in lower manhattan? the city of london? shinjuku?

you guys are designing la in the image of dick riordan's ideal or some other old fart politician who doesn't understand this city. accept la for how it's evolved, work with what we've got, and tie all these hoods together. that way bev hills, dtla, melrose, hollywood, etc can mature into urban districts within a greater whole. get over this downtown la hangup. angelenos are such idiots when it comes to urbanism. no wonder this city has such a hard time un-sucking.

[Vangelist]

wow is the time-space continuum exploding? for i am agreeing with edluva for once...

Nah i've actually repeated what he's just now saying all along: stop the generic gentrification championing of downtown. As someone who lives on Broadway of course I want the theaters and venues "cleaned up," but we don't have to turn it into another sanitized 3rd Street Promenade. Let downtown plz keep it's offbeat, artsy, gritty character - I don't understand the obsession with these name brand stores either. Louis Vuitton? Who gives a shit, I don't *need* celebrities all congregating in one 'hood...that sort of plastic shallowness is why I left Hollywood in the first place, which used to be a great neighborhood 2001-'05 with all of its new or revamped attractions - arclight, ameoba, cinematheque, etc. - before the reality tv stars invaded to make it a tacky facsimile of the "nightclubbing in Vegas" experience)

All that's going to do is push people like me, who've made an investment to live/work downtown, further east. Or north. Or south. It shouldn't be too much to ask to save a neighborhood's character in lieu of sacrificing its soul to soul-crushing uber development geared towards tourists to compete with SF or Manhattan. How about asking the actual people who LIVE HERE what sort of retail we NEED instead? I doubt anyone's going to say "Gucci" first :/

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by edluva

i think it's idiotic to want dtla to be everything to everybody. you guys act as though dtla is our manhattan. it's just a tiny hood among many hoods in la. get over it.

what is this obsession with getting big euro houses like gucci and lv into downtown? what does that accomplish? where are all the posh designer flagships in lower manhattan? the city of london? shinjuku?

you guys are designing la in the image of dick riordan's ideal or some other old fart politician who doesn't understand this city. accept la for how it's evolved, work with what we've got, and tie all these hoods together. that way bev hills, dtla, melrose, hollywood, etc can mature into urban districts within a greater whole. get over this downtown la hangup. angelenos are such idiots when it comes to urbanism. no wonder this city has such a hard time un-sucking.

its not that, its just that if i lived in dt i dont wanna have to drive all the way to beverly hills just to shop, plus it could steal a lot of customers who would have gone to bh. it would be more convenient to walk in dt. plus there is no subway or light rail lines that go through beverley hills. what would it accomplish?? maybe not a lot but dont you think its better than what lies there right now?? only you would think something like that... where are the posh stores in manhattan?? 5th ave.. london?? west end... japan?? shibuya... san francisco??? union square... even PHILIPPINES?!?!?! yes Ayala Center in Makati of metro manila. they might not be flagships but they do have high end fashion. what has it done to those cities?? a world renown shopping area.. like Champs Elysees in Paris, or again 5th Avenue in New York City. its not like it was like that in the beginning. they made it like that on purpose... otherwise there would be regular stores like house of flavor, zumiez or active on those streets. why can't la do the same? You have a mentality that LA county is Los Angeles.. no its not. BH is just a city in a county named after la.

Why open high end stores in Horton Plaza in dt san diego when we have a fashion valley(the bh of sd)??? because its more convenient for dt people and those closer to dt than fashion valley. or union square in sf when there is a reallllly close sf mall that have the same stores??? thats even more ridiculous. these stores wouldn't hurt dtla at all.. soo therefore im for it if it does happen or gets planned.

Beverly Hills isnt even part of Los Angeles!! its in la county yes but its not part of the city of la. bh is their own city, just like weho. and opening up those stores in dt would only make it better not worse.. so i dont know why you're against it, its not gonna damage the city... IT WILL ATTRACT PEOPLE who visit dt thats for sure. people from conventions, laker games, awards shows like the grammy's, the art walk, plain tourists.. the streetcar will encourage them to see the area and BAM!! right in their face there is a high end shopping street.. who needs bh when there's one in close proximity in the city??? do you want me to waste my money, i could be using for shopping, on gas?? uh uh no honey.. you're against everything everybody posts on here.. we know you hate la we know you're disgusted ok whatever you can feel miserable about being an angeleno.. ur talkin bout urself. thats stupid. arent you from la?? and im not from la ok?? i moved down to san diego from san francisco with my family 9 years ago, and plan on moving to la in 3 years after the military to work for lapd.. this is what i want in my(future) dt.. i dont wanna drive my car all the way to bh when i could just stay in the city.anyways.. hellur. im over you. maybe you're in dire need of a fashion makeover. cause you hella aint crackin. haha

[LosAngelesDreamin]

Originally Posted by Vangelist

wow is the time-space continuum exploding? for i am agreeing with edluva for once...

Nah i've actually repeated what he's just now saying all along: stop the generic gentrification championing of downtown. As someone who lives on Broadway of course I want the theaters and venues "cleaned up," but we don't have to turn it into another sanitized 3rd Street Promenade. Let downtown plz keep it's offbeat, artsy, gritty character - I don't understand the obsession with these name brand stores either. Louis Vuitton? Who gives a shit, I don't *need* celebrities all congregating in one 'hood...that sort of plastic shallowness is why I left Hollywood in the first place, which used to be a great neighborhood 2001-'05 with all of its new or revamped attractions - arclight, ameoba, cinematheque, etc. - before the reality tv stars invaded to make it a tacky facsimile of the "nightclubbing in Vegas" experience)

All that's going to do is push people like me, who've made an investment to live/work downtown, further east. Or north. Or south. It shouldn't be too much to ask to save a neighborhood's character in lieu of sacrificing its soul to soul-crushing uber development geared towards tourists to compete with SF or Manhattan. How about asking the actual people who LIVE HERE what sort of retail we NEED instead? I doubt anyone's going to say "Gucci" first :/

im not saying replace the buildings and the historic architecture.. but simply put better concentration of store on ONE STREET.. just one... did i say broadway?? did i say the entire downtown area needs to be more expensive and fancy?? nope.. i only mentioned one st. and what? your gonna move out of dt because a gucci store opened up?? oh em gee you're gonna die now right?? dt is ruined and its the end of the world? dt would only benefit from it.

of course.... dt would turn plastic like its west side just cause stores like prada, dolce gabbana, bergdorf goodman, fendi or jimmy choo opend up right?? so i guess paris, san francisco and new york city are plastic and fake as well. no it would make la more fashionable... its all art... fashion is art. and is an expression of oneself for example military uniform?? what do u see and feel when u see the uniforms?? professionalism, unity, and power right?? something like that? what do you see when fashion week is held in nyc or milan? beauty, avant-garde, and art.. just cause it comes to la means that its fake now.. so stereotypical of you to say that... as if fake tannings and plastic surgery dont happen in other cities but only in Los Angeles.

i know this Macy's plaza sucks donkey d!ck but look what it has done.. a lot of shoppers and pedestrian activity right?? and it has an Express =] more restaurants would be nice on 7th avenue also. i didnt mean make the street exclusively fashion stores, that would be boring.. but a mixed street with cafe's and restaurants also. Apple store?? we all know what an apple store can bring.... A LOT OF PEOPLE.

Dtla was once known as the retail capital of the world, so im not destroying dt.. im simply trying to bring it back... historic downtown isnt gonna go anywhere with a carls jr, kfc and stores like golden globe jewlery. at least turn that into a Jared's jewelry store you know? what is that?? do people even shop at those old jewelry stores? last time i checked they hardly get any customers stopping by. AGAIN, only 7th street is my idea.. i didnt say all of old downtown. and its gonna happen someday.. might as well do it now. dt isnt gonna stay the way it is today.. its only gonna get better.

Hollywood is a great place, tacky?? it attracts a lot of people. night clubs and bars are always a good thing. heck even dt san diego which is traditionally suppose to be more suburban and small has a better nightlife and restaurants in the city. and its cleaner and diverse.. whereas in dtla latinos are the majority. things that dtla doesnt have like a W or hard rock cafe and hotel or restaurants from all backgrounds, even a better pedestrian lifestyle.. i work downtown so i see it everyday there. spend a weekend there and WALK around and explore and you'll see.

if u wanna be in a quiet simple place then the suburbs is a good place for u, not the city. saying "dont bring that here keep it in another place" is like nimbyism.. isnt the city suppose to be diverse not only in demographs, but environment and lifestyle?? a mixing melting pot of everything for the young adults and the older people??? wanting to keep dt like this and that and keeping other things away is so selfish of you and seriously the mentality of someone from the suburbs.. Hollywood always had celebrities and movie/tv stars, so i dont know what ur talkin about.

and broadway does need to be sanitized.. right now its a joke and looks like an urban swap meet. with a bunch of stores a homeless can only afford. the beautiful movie palaces need to be restored and be in ENGLISH the universal lanugauge. Los Angeles has soooo much potential but a lot, not all, of people want dtla to remain the same and dont welcome new and better businesses in old downtown.

[LosAngelesBeauty]

The truth is actually a little bit of both from edluva/vangelist and LAdreamin.

We eventually want to get to a level of urban maturity in LA County where separate municipalities like BH and Weho become mere extensions and districts of this newly denser and well-connected Los Angeles. Much like London which does contain a separate City of Westminster within London, but you wouldn't for one minute think you're NOT actually in London when you're in Westminster because London is extremely dense and well connected.

However, because there is very little pride in the name "Los Angeles," many of these satellite cities like BH and Weho and SM strive to remain separated from that Los Angeles name, which is viewed more with disdain than admiration. Why wouldn't they when their respective downtowns are more attractive to the masses than DTLA? These "cities" look down on LA, even though they clearly part of "LA."

The power dynamics that exist here in LA is clear evidence that the City of LA itself has lacked the characteristics that command respect and therefore it must first improve itself before these other satellite cities will "look up to LA" and therefore desire to be a part of something GREATER than themselves. They must be proud of being called an Angeleno before they will identify with it and own it.

Downtown LA is unique in the area because visually it stands out and with its built environment because of its extensive grid system conducive to pedestrian walkability (unlike most of the linear commercial blvd that make walking less spontaneous and flexible). And because Downtown LA actually does represent, undoubtedly, the City of LA, it would behoove the city to attract as many businesses (expensive and cheap) to invest in DTLA (also for tax revenue purposes). There is PLENTY of room to fill in DTLA (including all those yet to be developed parking lots). You could probably take all the businesses in Downtown SM, BH, Weho, and Pasadena and fit it within the confines of DTLA, so like what LADreamin said, there could be one street that have luxury retailers and the majority of other streets with more affordable retail. LA is such a large market, it is possible to sustain a few more luxury retailers without oversaturation.

If Downtown LA were completely revitalized, the criticism surrounding LA that it has "no center" (no connection of the soul to the city) would disappear from the masses' perceptions. Meaning, from visitors to residents of LA County, people would start to respect the name of "LA" more because DTLA does represent City of LA. However, it would then change the dynamics of this city so that there is no longer the resistance from the satellite cities to unify under "Los Angeles" even though they can still obviously maintain their own distinct identity.

In order for LA to get to the kind of city that edluva wants, a city like London or Tokyo-to, then City of LA must first improve itself to earn the respect of residents outside of City of LA, so that naturally people WANT to identify with LA because they are proud of it. And DTLA revitalizing and transit connecting the other "cities" will help toward that goal of making LA unified.

[pesto]

The posts are getting really long (like most of mine) so I guess I'll jump in. These are more general thoughts than taking a position re upscale retail.

There is no necessity for downtowns (in the sense of the most attractive urban district) to stay in the same place. In NY it moved north over the years and has now made a bit of return toward the south. The City of London was mostly decaying offices and slums 50 years ago. Paris tore down much of its core because it was badly decayed and the well-to-do were moving to surrounding districts.

Much of LA's problem arises because demand for housing and business had moved to the westside. A decision could have been made to spend no money DT; or to focus on the existing assets (historical, medium-rise buildings) and convert them to, say, housing or tourist or whatever uses. Instead, it was decided to subsidize high-rises and culture on Bunker Hill by tearing out neighborhoods.

Demand for housing remained high on the westside, but the locals (LA and smaller towns) didn't want high-rise. In DT no choice was given: high-rise was insisted on and people were removed. This has led to constant problems on occupancy rates in the high-rises and attendance at the Music Center. The rich and upper-middle class don't particularly want to go there.

It would be interesting to see what had happened if no high-rises were allowed DT; the evolution could have been much more like inner London or Paris. The good news is that over time DT to SM will become entirely urban (in a low-rise, London or Paris sense). But there is no need for the rich to go DT any more than they need to be in every district of other major cities. Even SM, Beverly Center and Westwood are not filled with Prada and Fred; they are comforable with Barnes & Noble, Nordstrom and Anthropologie.

[colemonkee]

While everyone waxes philosophical, I'll deliver some real news. Curbed LA is reporting that the lot at 12th and Fig - previously slated for the Jardin project - is under contract to be sold.


Image Source: Curbed LA

But What's Coming? Big Lot Near Staples Center In Contract

Read the full article here.

[Illithid Dude]

Originally Posted by pesto

Even SM, Beverly Center and Westwood are not filled with Prada and Fred; they are comforable with Barnes & Noble, Nordstrom and Anthropologie.

Wrong. Santa Monica is actually filled with Fred, and sort-of Prada (Louis Vuitton, Burberry, Bloomingdales) and Beverly Center actually has a real deal Prada. Every one of the major districts in L.A. (Hollywood, Beverly Hills, Santa Monica) has their own major shopping street. For Santa Monica, there is 3rd Street. Beverly Hills has Rodeo. Hollywood has the strip. Downtown has no major shopping street. Yes, some people would say that Broadway is that street, but I mean a street that people would want to buy something on. And by people, I mean the people who live on the Westside. The surest sign that an area has reached an agreeable point in the gentrification process is when an upper-middle class person from the Westside comes over, looks around, and say, "Hey, look at that, this area is actually pretty nice). DTLA is getting there, but right now all I think that my hypothetical westsider would think is, "Hey, look at that, this are COULD be pretty nice". Granted, I am an upper-middle class Westsider, and I like downtown a lot, but I am a strange fish when it comes to those things.

Anyways, I am getting really off track from what I came over to say.

http://la.curbed.com/archives/2011/03/but_whats_coming_big_lot_near_staples_in_contract.php

One of the largest deadzones this side of the future L.A. Central development has been sold!



I know not what is going to go there, but I hope it is something tall and not faux-Mediterranean(Palmer, I'm looking at you). The sellers were the South Group, the people who did the (IMO) very nice collection of buildings next to the AT&T Center (Evo, Elleven, and Luma). They won't say who bought the plot of land, or what is was sold for, but it was listed at 30 mil.



This is what was originally going in that plot of land during the Boom Days. I personally liked the old design, and hope that we will get something similar.

Oh, and does comparing DT with Beverly Hills count as City vs. City?

[RuFFy]

This thread has been filled with too much nonsensical garbage over the past few weeks and I hope it improves. I'm also sick and tired of someone's obsession with power cables. In any case, I agree with Edluva in that all the communities of Los Angeles need to be connected. I also like his sharp responses that cause other forumers to think outside the box. As far as upscale shopping downtown I believe Los Angeles Beauty once mentioned Pershing Square would be a good location and for the most part, I agree.

[QuarterMileSidewalk]

Originally Posted by Illithid Dude

Oh, and does comparing DT with Beverly Hills count as City vs. City?

Technically, yes, but since they're part of the same Metro (and Beverly Hills is basically an enclave), I think everyone should get a pass.

What the last several posters have been saying is spot-on. Connectivity is key to unifying the metropolis. All the separate municipalities should be merely administrative. I strongly believe that the people of this region will be more concerned with the problems that affect the region, if they see themselves as citizens of the region, rather than only of the "city" they reside in. I think that regional efforts at transportation planning, and a resistance to focusing exclusively on either downtown LA or the suburbs, but rather working to improve the character of the entire region will help to instill that level of civic pride.

The boundary lines exist only on paper. When you drive through all these places, often the only indication of entering a different place is the little green "city limits" sign. There are five whole counties and hundreds of cities within them that comprise this region, and all of their citizens are economically and socially connected to each other. My home city of Fontana does not exist unless rail lines are built between San Bernardino and Los Angeles over a hundred years ago; it does not heavily industrialize unless the I-10 does the same thing 50 years later. It is inextricably linked to the surrounding region.

[edluva]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesBeauty

If Downtown LA were completely revitalized, the criticism surrounding LA that it has "no center" (no connection of the soul to the city) would disappear from the masses' perceptions.

i don't think a completely revitalized downtown is a panacea like you describe here.

la just needs a mass transit network focused on the areas mentioned - downtown to samo including weho, hollywood, and bev hills. shopping districts will come or go as they please, but this time, channelled toward ped-oriented growth. yes, connectivity is key.

whether or not downtown la fulfills your vain ideals for it could matter less. as long as it's tied into the rest of these destinations, it will improve. we could talk about individual projects until we're blue in the face, still nothing will change until the way in which the average angeleno travels has.

[tommaso]

Can we realistically see the DTLA population double in the next ten years? If the answer is yes, then clearly property owners will charge higher rents and we will sign some interesting tenants here for commercial leases. Now, the if is the key to our hope. I believe in this population growth. Well, can it double by 2020? Sure it can. I'm not worried about Los Angeles at all. We manage very well to attract new residents here every year. We will have jobs here and fairly soon we will even have trains, more of them, and yes, more housing. That's good, it's great, it's honorable! We don't have any problems here. We must be patient and let mother time work on her own clock. We can't swim in this ocean alone. We are together here and our voices are being heard. We all do have an innate power and we respect our city. That's why we want our home here to be great and a happy place, where we can open our eyes and see a beautiful world! Oh, it's magnificent, and we'll make it great together! We will make our home, Los Angeles, shine brighter that the radiant sun that shines on us, brick by brick, stone by stone, block by block.

[pesto]

illithit: My comment really was that the westside shopping streets (other than BH and WeHo) are not filled with Prada and Fred and the like, which is certainly true. There's considerable difference between BH and the shopping streets in SM, Beverly Center, Westwood, Brentwood, etc. These cater to upper-middle shoppers, not the wealthy.

Shopping MALLS (SM Place, Century City, Beverly Center) have the only significant very upscale shopping outside of BH. And even those are very small and downmarket compared to Wilshire and Rodeo in BH (Neiman, Barney's, Saks; 50 designer boutiques on Rodeo Drive and adjacent). But, the key point is that these are not streets; they are malls and therefore not comparable to 7th St. or Bway.

If Barney's and Fred want to come downtown, so much the better. Perhaps one of the long-awaited highrise/shopping developments along Fig would be able to concentrate enough tourists and locals to support a mall such as those found in the Trump or Columbus Circle in NY or many LV hotels. I could be wrong but concentration of that amount of people with money on Bway or Pershing Sq. seems to be a few years away.