The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

20 years to build?!?! I can't imagine how it could possibly take so long.

[caltrane74]

I think they are going to do the Eglinton Crosstown line in stages. First 10 years will be Jane to Laird/Leslie. Second phase will be the western section Jane to Renforth and the Airport, and the Eastern section, Leslie to Kennedy and Scarborugh Town Centre.

Total lenght, 30.8 KM.

[Nouvellecosse]

I guess this is what happens when cities try to do things without the pressure and deadlines of a big event (like the Olympics, Expo, etc).

[caltrane74]

But they will build the Airport Express line for the Pan Am games in 4 years time. They just bought the trains for that line today. (They = Metrolinx)

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

I think they are going to do the Eglinton Crosstown line in stages. First 10 years will be Jane to Laird/Leslie. Second phase will be the western section Jane to Renforth and the Airport, and the Eastern section, Leslie to Kennedy and Scarborugh Town Centre.

Total lenght, 30.8 KM.

In 10 years, Beijing adds 282.5 kilometres of subway track to its network. In 20 years, Toronto can add a paltry 30.8. "Pathetic" doesn't even begin to describe this. The Chinese are doing something right; why don't we try observing their funding/construction techniques and see if we can borrow some of them?

[caltrane74]

You are forgetting about the 10 km extention of the Sheppard Subway east to STC, and west to Downsview.

Also, the Subway extention of the Spadina Line which is also about 7km.

So that is 50 km of Subway that is being added to Toronto and if you work on the fact that Bejing has 19 million people and Toronto has 7 million, we are not doing to bad, if you throw in the new Airport Rail Link, and the electricfication of the GO Lines in the Toronto Area, which will enable more frequent (subway) like service in the future.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

You are forgetting about the 10 km extention of the Sheppard Subway east to STC, and west to Downsview.

Also, the Subway extention of the Spadina Line which is also about 7km.

So that is 50 km of Subway that is being added to Toronto and if you work on the fact that Bejing has 19 million people and Toronto has 7 million, we are not doing to bad, if you throw in the new Airport Rail Link, and the electricfication of the GO Lines in the Toronto Area, which will enable more frequent (subway) like service in the future.

So if we're looking at the final plans, Beijing plans to add 515.5 kilometres of track between 2000 and 2015, ie in 15 years. Toronto adds 50 in 20 or more years. Beijing has 22 million people, Toronto has 7 million (both metro). In any case, Beijing will have added 23.40 kilometres of track per million inhabitants, wheras Toronto adds 7.14 kilometres. They're still building 3 times as much track per capita as we are, and in less time; if we were to compete on the same level, we would need about 150 kilometres of new grade-separated track planned for this city by 2026.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by Wharn

The Chinese are doing something right; why don't we try observing their funding/construction techniques and see if we can borrow some of them?

Ah yes, lets discard all our labour laws and pay workers a paltry wage for being overworked in less safe working conditions! Brilliant!

[caltrane74]

Not only that but car ownership in Toronto is likely 3 times higher in Toronto than in Bejing, which in theory would equalize us in the fact we are only building a third of the Rapid Transit that they're building there.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Wharn

The Chinese are doing something right; why don't we try observing their funding/construction techniques and see if we can borrow some of them?

In addition to the cheap labour, the Chinese government is the sole landowner in that country and brings in billions (if not trillions) in rent, and can do whatever it wants with the land. In China if the government wants to build something, they can forcibly remove people from the land and do it right away without any studies. In Canada, people can own property and have a right to have a say on how land on and adjacent to it is used. If the government wants to do something, it needs permission from the people to do it and must undertake numerous studies.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by vid

In addition to the cheap labour, the Chinese government is the sole landowner in that country and brings in billions (if not trillions) in rent, and can do whatever it wants with the land. In China if the government wants to build something, they can forcibly remove people from the land and do it right away without any studies. In Canada, people can own property and have a right to have a say on how land on and adjacent to it is used. If the government wants to do something, it needs permission from the people to do it and must undertake numerous studies.

Since 2005 China has had a freehold system of property ownership (for the cities at least). So yes, it can be argued that since the Chinese government holds radical title, it is technically the "owner" of all land. But Canada works in almost exactly the same way; recall that the "crown" is the ultimate owner of land in Canada. The only difference is our government doesn't bully people into giving up their land, but for subway construction using tunnel boring techniques, it's not a huge issue.

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Ah yes, lets discard all our labour laws and pay workers a paltry wage for being overworked in less safe working conditions! Brilliant!

I wouldn't want to discard the rights of workers as human beings, but I certainly would want to put a contract out to tender rather than have everything done in-house by overpaid union members. Example: Beijing's subway was funded in a joint venture between BPT and Hong Kong's MTR, and is actually run by the MTR instead of BPT. Quite sad that even communists can teach us something about public-private partnerships.

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Not only that but car ownership in Toronto is likely 3 times higher in Toronto than in Bejing, which in theory would equalize us in the fact we are only building a third of the Rapid Transit that they're building there.

First population, now car ownership rates. Excuses, Excuses. How do you think we're going to wrestle people from their cars? Ridership numbers prove that they love grade-separated rapid transit, so why not make that a priority?

[caltrane74]

Don't forget our new subways will have 10% to 15% additional capacity as they will be larger, and new technology will also reduce headway on our subway lines, thereby increasing capacity further.

Here is the rail transit map for Toronto - excluding the Airport Express Line



With the Electrification of the GO Lines, there will be increased frequency which will be squeezed out of the existing network, excluding expansion plans for Bolton and the Airport.

[g35]

Can I ask this here? How can I get from Brampton to downtown Toronto using Transit? Someone told me to just take the GO route 34 bus to York Mills, then the subway from there, or is there a better way? Visiting Toronto and gotransit.com has been down all day...wondering for tomorrow's purposes. In case it makes a difference, I'll be departing around Queen/Gore/Ebenezer? Something like that.

Not meant as a slam on GTA at all but it's so much easier to figure out in Metro Vancouver with one transit authority (and therefore one trip-planning website) for the whole region, for a newbie...even moreso when the website works!

Also I'll take this post as an opportunity to commend Winnipeg Transit for their awesome new site. You can search in just about every way imaginable...by stop #, intersection, route, there's a trip planner, and just about every page has integrated google maps with every stop shown so even if you don't know the exact stop location, just find your location, click the closest stop on the map, and it pops up every bus through that stop and the next few buses to stop there, and has links to the timetables. And every timetable has up-to-date (through GPS info) stop-by-stop times for every bus.

And on top of that you can text message stop # or intersection, and get info that way, for specific routes and times (eg. NB Pembina at Thatcher 1130 70 gives you the next couple #70's through the stop specified starting at 11:30 AM or PM, whichever comes first). Invaluable.

[caltrane74]

Yes catch the bus to York Mills or Yorkdale from Brampton City Centre, and from there you can catch the subway which will take you downtown.

It will take about an hour to a hour and a half to complete the trip.

[The_Architect]

Where is the Brampton Go Station in relation to where you are?

[g35]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

Where is the Brampton Go Station in relation to where you are?

Oh I can get to Brampton City Centre ok. Thanks guys

[caltrane74]

no problems...

[caltrane74]

New Subway Station at Keele

[The_Architect]

Looks like the architect had a hallucinogenic-related lucid dream after watching a National Geographic documentary on zebras..

[Doady]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Don't forget our new subways will have 10% to 15% additional capacity as they will be larger, and new technology will also reduce headway on our subway lines, thereby increasing capacity further.

Here is the rail transit map for Toronto - excluding the Airport Express Line



With the Electrification of the GO Lines, there will be increased frequency which will be squeezed out of the existing network, excluding expansion plans for Bolton and the Airport.

Funny how that map shows the the on-street Viva Transitways, but not the grade-separated Mississauga and 407 Transitways, the former already under construction.