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  #1641  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by lostknight View Post
Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's imagine that RTD really screwed the numbers much more then they did. Let's pretend that they only had 10% of their original number, and the only service that they approved was the line to Boulder.

Can you imagine the outrage? Now, might you be able to see why People in Boulder might get upset at all of these Denverites calling for a fix bill that deliberately cut Boulder out?
The outrage in Boulder that they were only budgeted 10% of the entire program?.. yeah I can imagine that.

There are maybe one or two more cities in the region than just Denver and Boulder, maybe 3? I dunno. It's unfair and paranoid to assume that this would be a scam by Denver to screw Boulder out of the program. If Denver was trying to put itself at an advantage it would want people from Boulder MORE than other places because, in general, you have more money to bring to downtown Denver than say, Aurora or Thornton. Denver isn't stupid, they know that their biggest ally in liberal projects like this is Boulder. But they also know that they have to get as much done for as many people as they can. Have you even considered the possibility that they are genuinely trying to fulfill as much of the original vision with as few hardships to their constituents as possible?
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  #1642  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Brainpathology View Post
The outrage in Boulder that they were only budgeted 10% of the entire program?.. yeah I can imagine that.
I don't know why I bother with this. I am done. Congrads on being the first to join my ignore list.
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  #1643  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:40 AM
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You keep talking about cutting Boulder out. Where do you get that? Even if the rail line was cut entirely, Boulder would still be getting over $200 million in Fastracks investment. That's hardly nothing. And that's much better than what a lot of other areas are getting.

We're all disappointed that Fastracks can't provide what was promised. But cuts must be made. When you start talking about cutting Boulder out, you're just flat lying. It's the only corridor in the district that had two major capital programs directed at it. Of course it'll be looked at as one of the first places to make cuts. It's the only corridor where you can make cuts and still have something left over. Anywhere else you cut, there won't be anything left. (Incidentally, that's the same reason the SW and SE extensions are first on the list for cuts, and rightfully so, because those projects can be cut and those areas will still have something left over.)

Beyond that, deserve has nothing to do with it. It is irrelevant which areas voted more strongly one way or the other. It's a regional system, and a regional tax. Once it passed, 50%+1, we had to look regionally for the best overall system with the money we have.
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  #1644  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:46 AM
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It's the only corridor in the district that had two major capital programs directed at it.
Which is actually a good point. But remember that it was in there because it needed it due to CDOT's and RTD's willful neglect of US-36. I understand the reasons for the neglect, but that doesn't change the fact that something, transportation wise, needs to be fixed.

If nothing else, don't assume that the US-36 BRT has priority. I 100% guarantee that if you hold a Boulder city vote, they would prefer a "light rail" line every time.

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Of course it'll be looked at as one of the first places to make cuts. It's the only corridor where you can make cuts and still have something left over.
Actually, with the news that the US-36 expansion is canceled in the latest continuing resolution, Boulder will pretty much get that zero.

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Beyond that, deserve has nothing to do with it. It is irrelevant which areas voted more strongly one way or the other. It's a regional system, and a regional tax. Once it passed, 50%+1, we had to look regionally for the best overall system with the money we have.
My only point is that at this point, I would prefer that they either ask for the whole amount and finish the project, or get authorization from the voters for the program that they want.

So far, RTD looks like it is going to ask for the whole program. I approve of that.
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  #1645  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:49 AM
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I don't know why I bother with this. I am done. Congrads on being the first to join my ignore list.
And congrats for proving that when presented with the same prickish style you use to argue something you pout, stick your fingers in your ears and stick your tongue out.
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  #1646  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 12:50 AM
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I think we should also keep a little bit of perspective here. As important as Boulder thinks it is, it represents a tiny fraction of our metro population these days.

Best numbers we have, 2009 estimate for the Denver-Aurora-Boulder CSA was 3,110,436. Our latest estimate for the City of Boulder is 100,160. I'll save you guys that math - that's 3.22% of the metro area's population living in Boulder.

Boulder should rightfully be debating its relative importance with Pueblo, not Colorado's larger cities. Thanks to its...unique...growth policies, Boulder's share of overall Colorado state population fell below 2% last year for basically the first time ever.
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  #1647  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think we should also keep a little bit of perspective here. As important as Boulder thinks it is, it represents a tiny fraction of our metro population these days.
The Boulder MSA is 290,000 people. Which is roughly half of the Denver itself. In addition, growth in Longmont, Lyons, Gunbarrel, Lousiville, Superior and Lafayette are on pace to double over the next ten years. Lafayette, Firestone and Erie alone are slated to add close to 60,000 people over the next five.

A lot of people who live in the Denver statistical areas are commuting into Denver (note the direction of the gridlock on US36).

Does that mean that Aurora and Arapahoe are unimportant? Of course not. Getting them to Boulderesque mass-transit propensities will not occur in this generation, save Peak oil. Boulder is better positioned because it already has a very well developed bus rapid transit system in Boulder itself, and a central location for feeding them to other regional partners.
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  #1648  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 1:10 AM
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I don't think the good people of Longmont, Lyons, Gunbarrel, Lousiville, Superior and Lafayette will share your sentiment that Boulder needs an even greater share of metro transit dollars. And Aurora sure as hell doesn't (Hence the recent dispute over pulling DRCOG funds from Boulder bike paths and other cosmetic improvements to upgrade Peoria Blvd. It may be Denver Mayor Vidal making headlines about his advocacy for moving that money, but it's really the City of Aurora that benefits and is pushing hardest for stripping Boulder of that money.)

We can't ever get transit ridership up in those areas if we are spending our limited dollars gold-plating recreational bike facilities in Boulder.
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  #1649  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 1:19 AM
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I have nothing against Boulder or Longmont, please don't take this personally. But the NW rail corridor is a colossal waste of money. The longest corridor, and also the one that will by far have the lowest ridership. From a purely utilitarian point of view, it does not make sense. If it were the first step in a Front Range rail system, I might support it in spite of its initial dismal ridership. But the alignment RTD chose shares track with freight trains and has such poor geometry, that that will never be practical for service north of Longmont.
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  #1650  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 3:37 AM
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If you all favor cutting the NW line to Boulder then where would you advocate cutting it off?
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  #1651  
Old Posted Feb 19, 2011, 8:19 PM
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I would have two proposals to choose from.

Proposal A
-End the DMU line at Boulder Transit Village
-Extend/Expand/Improve BRT & Express Bus service from a Boulder Hub to Longmont and other places
-Future state funded front Range Rail, will extend rail service north of Boulder

Proposal B
Do not build the NW DMU line past the 72nd Street electrified EMU stub, as planned. Instead, in phases as funds are available, extend NW EMU one station at a time, mostly up US 36 ROW or along freight ROW but not sharing freight track
-Phase 1 extension of EMU service to US 36 & Church Ranch
-Phase 2 extension of EMU service to Broomfield-Flat Iron/96th Street
-Phase 3 extension of EMU service to US 36 & McCoslin-Superior/Louisville
-Phase 4 extension of EMU service to US 36 & Table Mesa-Boulder
-Phase 5 extension of EMU service into Boulder, elevated over 28th Street to elevated station at 28th & Arapahoe Ave.
-Phase 6 Extension of EMU service elevated on 28th to Pearl Street, where elevated rail changes to at-grade at Boulder Transit Village Station end-of-line.
-DMU service can run beyond Boulder Transit Village to Longmont, Loveland, Fort Collins and beyond, when/if needed.
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  #1652  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2011, 12:13 AM
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Wow, step away from this forum for few days and it explodes.

As for the money Denver wants from the Boulder projects it does sound important and some reallocation is warranted. But what was Denver thinking? Did some other funding fall through or did they assume FasTracks money would pay for the grade separation? It’s not as though we have not known about the East line for some time now. On the face of it the Boulder projects seem frivolous compared to the grade separation project but it seems to me Boulder officials did what that should do. They planned and secured money for projects that benefit their citizens. Nothing wrong with that. Boulder should not be painted as the evil party in this especially without questions being asked as to why Denver did not plan or raise the issue earlier. Perhaps it has been discussed but didn’t reach the press. I just find the suddenness of it all really odd.

As for cancelling the NW Line, fortunately I have never heard any RTD official talk about this. The RTD line has always been everything will be completed. Maybe not until 2060 but I do believe it will be done. BRT and Rail to Boulder were part of FasTracks and passed by the voters from the entire RTD region. No way any of it should be canceled. Of course some lines will be built first I’ve no problem with the NW Line being put on the back burner since BRT seems to be moving forward.

My thanks to lostnight for presenting what appears to be an unpopular view on here.
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  #1653  
Old Posted Feb 20, 2011, 1:54 AM
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Originally Posted by taylor23 View Post
But what was Denver thinking? Did some other funding fall through or did they assume FasTracks money would pay for the grade separation? It’s not as though we have not known about the East line for some time now.

As for cancelling the NW Line, fortunately I have never heard any RTD official talk about this. The RTD line has always been everything will be completed. Maybe not until 2060 but I do believe it will be done. BRT and Rail to Boulder were part of FasTracks and passed by the voters from the entire RTD region. No way any of it should be canceled.
Two things here...

On your first point, I think they key thing is that RTD didn't plan to grade-separate a lot of these crossings (to save money, as with everything else in Fastracks), and Denver and Aurora are stepping in trying to find money to make it happen. Different governmental entities, different priorities. The better question is - what was RTD thinking? (I can tell you what they were thinking - they're on a tight budget, and the train comes first, so unless it's an absolute imperative, let the local governments deal with the negative impacts on local traffic.)

On the second point, what RTD puts out in a press release and what RTD staff says behind closed doors, or in a moment of honesty, are plainly two different things. Voters voted for two things - they voted for a proposed system, and they voted for a cap on permissible bonding to construct that system. The two cannot be separated. What the voters voted for is now impossible, so to say we have to get everything we voted for isn't an option. (I'll also point out - RTD put the proposed system out there as a carrot. That was a direct response to the criticisms that torpedoed Guide the Ride in 1997. But nothing that was actually on the ballot promised any particular line would get built. All of that was contingent on later planning processes.)

So, we go to another vote. If it passes, this discussion is pointless. But if the vote doesn't pass, then you can read that as the voters chose the $ bonding cap over the integrity of the complete system. That's the choice. So if it fails, and it very well could, we'll be looking at cutting things.

Waiting until 2060 isn't an option, because the Fastracks ballot language included both a percentage tax increase, and a cap on bonding. Without bonding, RTD would be stuck doing pay-as-you-go, and that would make it impossible to finish the system. To say nothing of the fact that the ballot language means once RTD's legal bonding authority is reached and repaid, the tax goes away.

It's not really time to discuss that yet, so it doesn't make press releases. And would be damaging to the efforts to finish Fastracks anyways, so why even go there. But every option now depends on an election. And if that goes badly, our discussion here becomes very relevant, very quickly.

In that case - if we end up making do with what we have, meaning, things have to be cut - I do not think the NW rail should be a priority. (The flipside of that is, in my opinion, the US36 BRT should be near the highest priority - it's about the best performing project in the system, certainly of the ones that are not funded.)

EDIT: Question... if push comes to shove... ignoring the issues with CDOT and getting funding for the highway bit... is there any reason we couldn't pursue New Starts funding for a real BRT system? Focus has been on the North Metro line being the next to go after a FFGA. But if the NW rail went away, at least for now, wouldn't that make a BRT system very attractive to the FTA? Or is there a built-in anti-BRT bias? I'm not familiar enough with the process to know.
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  #1654  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2011, 8:17 PM
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Poll on the Denver Post site is quite telling. Not a ton of votes in, but it's pretty clear that people want to go big or go home. The .2 increase is non-existent.

(And yes, I understand this is an interwebs poll)
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  #1655  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 12:22 AM
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I find polls with only two options: YES or NO

To be more accurate. When a poll gives people too many choices, it divides the results and leaves uncertainty to how many "would have" voted for another option instead of "NO," had the option they voted for, not been included in the poll. Once RTD eliminates options, so they are not even up for debate, we will find the real support and opposition numbers.
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  #1656  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 6:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bunt_q View Post
I think we should also keep a little bit of perspective here. As important as Boulder thinks it is, it represents a tiny fraction of our metro population these days.

Best numbers we have, 2009 estimate for the Denver-Aurora-Boulder CSA was 3,110,436. Our latest estimate for the City of Boulder is 100,160. I'll save you guys that math - that's 3.22% of the metro area's population living in Boulder.

Boulder should rightfully be debating its relative importance with Pueblo, not Colorado's larger cities. Thanks to its...unique...growth policies, Boulder's share of overall Colorado state population fell below 2% last year for basically the first time ever.
I think ridership numbers are more important than population. You want to build a system that gets the most use. With a large portion of the city being students, at its face it looks like the demographic fits the ridership. Plus you need to consider the people riding there for football/basketball games and it should get decent use off-peak commute hours.

Some earlier suggested eliminating the BX and B buses and I think that is a great idea, but the routes should be reduced instead of eliminated.
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  #1657  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 6:19 PM
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anyone know why the 225 light rail is one of the last to be completed? with it's projected ridership numbers I would think it is a top priority.
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  #1658  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 7:22 PM
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I think ridership numbers are more important than population. You want to build a system that gets the most use. With a large portion of the city being students, at its face it looks like the demographic fits the ridership. Plus you need to consider the people riding there for football/basketball games and it should get decent use off-peak commute hours.
Not for spending tax dollars. Besides, ridership, to a large extent, is a function of services provided. If Boulder's bus services were cut back to the levels of other parts of the metro area, ridership would decrease too.

CU has 5 (maybe 6) home football games next year. And RTD provides special football day service anyways. That is hardly a justification for greater-than-average per capita transit spending. There is no good reason why RTD taxpayers in other parts of the metro should be subsidizing Boulder more than they already are.

Basketball? Ha. CU averages 5,000-6,000 people per game. If that's worthy of special service, then so is DU hockey, the Fillmore, Ogden, and about 2,000 other events in the metro area on any given weekend. I can see it now - the Cherry Creek HS PromRide RTD special service.
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  #1659  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 7:27 PM
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anyone know why the 225 light rail is one of the last to be completed? with it's projected ridership numbers I would think it is a top priority.
Its projected ridership is mediocre, but still a good question...

225 is better than north metro (19,200 vs, 14,300), but north metro has gotten zilch from fastracks so far, so its going to win there over what amounts to basically an extension of an existing line.

225 vs. NW rail is 19,200 vs. 6,900, 2035 projected ridership. Why is 225 still last? Because Boulder is full of loud and whiney, but wealthy, activists.

No guarantee 225 will be last though... that's still very much an open question.
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  #1660  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2011, 7:46 PM
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