DENVER | Transportation Thread

[Cirrus]

^
You forgot to follow the whining with "but the rest of you are just jealous; you'd do it our way if you could".

Congratulations lostknight, you have managed to push the exact buttons that bring out everything I loathe about Boulder. You couldn't have done any better if you'd tried. If it was your plan to make me actively want to screw Boulder over, then you have succeeded.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

^
Congratulations lostknight, you have managed to push the exact buttons that bring out everything I loathe about Boulder. You couldn't have done any better if you'd tried. If it was your plan to make me actively want to screw Boulder over, then you have succeeded.

This entire discussion started with you there. That you ended up there isn't a surprise.

Denver is actively trying to fix their budget problems by yanking money from Boulder - reference the recent CDOT shenanigans. Thankfully, the RTD politicians have more sense then the partisans in this rare instance. Good for them on insisting on manning up and going to the voters to fix their mistakes and deliver what they promised to voters, instead of just stealing revenue from Boulder to pay Denver.

[sashyenka]

As someone who grew up in Boulder, I can genuinely say I completely agree with Cirrus. There is no defense for Boulder's anti-growth, selfish, gated community-style development policies. Boulder is as environmentally-friendly and pro-transit outside of CU (college students) and downtown as the Audis its residents drive to Whole Foods.

[Cirrus]

This entire discussion started with you there.

No, this discussion started with me trying to equitably and fairly distribute limited resources, and with you trying to screw somebody else over (anybody else; doesn't matter as long as you get twice what's yours).

It has ended with me wanting to screw Boulder over, and with you still wanting to screw anybody else over also.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

This entire discussion started with you there. That you ended up there isn't a surprise.

Denver is actively trying to fix their budget problems by yanking money from Boulder - reference the recent CDOT shenanigans. Thankfully, the RTD politicians have more sense then the partisans in this rare instance. Good for them on insisting on manning up and going to the voters to fix their mistakes and deliver what they promised to voters, instead of just stealing revenue from Boulder to pay Denver.

I hardly think asking for a redistribution of funds from a state funded agency is "stealing" from Boulder. I would also submit that maintenance of existing roads is probably more important than park luxuries. Sucks but we are in that position but there we are. And why isn't getting two entire legs of fastracks an example of Boulder stealing revenue from the rest of the metro area for themselves if we're going to use that logic?

Like I said before I'd be happy to keep both things going to Boulder because I know how annoying it must be to have the staff arrive at your house late in the morning. But if we HAVE to cut things, Boulder's "diversity" is going to have to get into town on one or the other public transit modes.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

But, but, buses are for poor people. We don't want BRT. WE WANT OUR TRAIN, waaaah.

We want what we voted for and paid for? That I will sign up for.

EDIT: If the train is so important to Boulder, why don't we cut the BRT, the B, and the BX buses. That's not exactly unprecedented - RTD has cut bus services, especially regional and express services, all over the metro area to push people on to rail lines.

I'm actually fine with this. The 36 corridor is a mess, and I would rather that they get effective rail service going that skips the disasters that are the Westminster area of 36.

And they plan to do a lot more of that post-Fastracks, turning many, many routes into train feeders. So let's do the same for Boulder. Re-route Boulder buses to the transit village.

There will be bus service into the transit village. There is also quick turn via stampede/hop/jump/etc. It's not like this is going into a unknown area of Boulder. 29th street is turning into the epicenter of Boulder.

Re-route Superior/Louisville/Lafayette buses to the Louisville station. Re-route Broomfield buses to the Broomfield stations. And eliminate all direct buses between those communities to Denver - that's what the train is for.

If Boulder truly wants to be treated fairly, to be treated the same as other metro area communities

Boulder is not metro area. It has it's own suburbs and regional network. I agree that these should tie into Boulder, but it's a part of the region.

While we're at it, we could just eliminate the standalone bus network that RTD provides to Boulder - complete with its own set of route numbers, its own bus barn, and its own operations staff. That's a relic of a time when Boulder was a much more significant player in the metro area.

I love your Denver bias. Once again, you assume that RTD serves just Denver and the metro area. Anything that doesn't benefit the metro area doesn't matter.

It's amusing that you are attacking Boulder in this matter. It's far further along the transit curve then most of the other regional parties. Part of the reason they are as insistant as they are on the rail line is so that they can more efficiently tie in the Boulder Network to a single high capacity rail line.

If you want true metro equity, those areas all need their own route systems, their own bus barns, their own operations staffs, same as Boulder gets.

I would love it if they could justify their ridership numbers and do the exact same thing that Boulder does.

They pay the same taxes Boulder does.

That on the other hand is not true. Boulder not only subsidizes many of their routes (all of the HOP/SKIP/JUMP/STAMPEDE routes are paid for by the City, CU and RTD) they also created them originally and ran them, before giving them to RTD and continuing to pay for them. Boulder also subsidizes ECOpass inside city limits. I recently watched a special that claimed that Boulder had one of the highest riderships of any city it's size. Not sure I believe it, but it's certainly a start. Not to mention that Sales tax numbers are higher.

Makes your argument about fairness a little silly doesn't it? Nevermind the fact that you are not even talking about ridership or about the authorization - which promised a specific thing - but about where RTD money goes to.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

I hardly think asking for a redistribution of funds from a state funded agency is "stealing" from Boulder.

Sure it is. The bill specified a "Light Rail" line (DMU actually, but that is lost on most) to Boulder. Boulder voted for the bill. Boulder pays their sales taxes. Now Denver thinks that this money should service Denver interests instead of regional or Boulder ones.

And why isn't getting two entire legs of fastracks an example of Boulder stealing revenue from the rest of the metro area for themselves if we're going to use that logic?

Actually, it's a reflection of the fact that RTD/CDOT fell asleep and US36 was in deep deep trouble.

Like I said before I'd be happy to keep both things going to Boulder because I know how annoying it must be to have the staff arrive at your house late in the morning.

Guess what, I have no staff. I have no servents. I live in a house that has a mortgage payment, when I have to go into the office, I hate the traffic. And I love transit oriented development. I'm no different then you, except I live in one place, and you another. My family has lived in Colorado as long as anyone else's here (I'm the fourth generation of my family to go to Boulder High) and I pay taxes just like you. For thoose taxes, I expect some reasonable return from Boulder, RTD, State of Colorado and the Federal Government.

I'm in favor of doing everything possible to encourage use of the DMU service. Like many (perhaps most, including all of you), yes, I would prefer to take a train in, instead of a bus that is prone to delay and a rougher ride.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

Sure it is. The bill specified a "Light Rail" line (DMU actually, but that is lost on most) to Boulder. Boulder voted for the bill. Boulder pays their sales taxes. Now Denver thinks that this money should service Denver interests instead of regional or Boulder ones.

LOL... nice.. you read as carefully as Eeyore.. congrats. I was, I think obviously, referencing you're shrieking that "Denver" was stealing from "Boulder" by asking CDOT to redistribute some monies because of budget shortfalls to fix a road in Denver instead of park projects in Boulder.

And no the fact that it is a DMU line is not lost on most people "here" - probably next to no one.... but way to further the stereotype of condescending turds that most people have about Boulder. I think most people here on an urban development forum get that the line is not light rail. I also know that living in Boulder pretty much makes you better than anyone else (you really could have been ex #3 in Scott Pilgrim but then only Colorado would have gotten the joke) but all of us nincompoops who weren't smart enough to be born in Boulder DO for the most part get the difference between most of the rail modes involved in mass transit here.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by lostknight

I would love it if they could justify their ridership numbers and do the exact same thing that Boulder does.

That on the other hand is not true. Boulder not only subsidizes many of their routes (all of the HOP/SKIP/JUMP/STAMPEDE routes are paid for by the City, CU and RTD) they also created them originally and ran them, before giving them to RTD and continuing to pay for them. Boulder also subsidizes ECOpass inside city limits. I recently watched a special that claimed that Boulder had one of the highest riderships of any city it's size. Not sure I believe it, but it's certainly a start. Not to mention that Sales tax numbers are higher.

Makes your argument about fairness a little silly doesn't it?

You clearly don't have a very strong knowledge of the RTD budget. If you're not willing to accept that the Boulder area receives a larger-than-proportionate share of RTD's budget than other municipalities of comparable size (which is a fact), even relative to its sales tax contributions (which may be high compared to some areas, but not compared to all), then I am not going to waste my time arguing. You don't get to make up your own facts.

Ridership is a result of service provided, not vice versa. Other cities also have EcoPasses. Farebox recovery isn't any better in Boulder than in any other municipality.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

LOL... nice.. you read as carefully as Eeyore.. congrats. I was, I think obviously, referencing you're shrieking that "Denver" was stealing from "Boulder" by asking CDOT to redistribute some monies because of budget shortfalls to fix a road in Denver instead of park projects in Boulder.

Stampede is not a park, neither is the creek bypass project. The 29th street - flatirons project is one of the critical growth areas in Boulder, and Boulder would like to keep renewable development going.

Nice demagoguery though.

I also know that living in Boulder pretty much makes you better than anyone else

I've never claimed that. You seem to have some anger issues.

but all of us nincompoops who weren't smart enough to be born in Boulder DO for the most part get the difference between most of the rail modes involved in mass transit here.

I will take you at your word that you were not questioning that RTD committed to building the DMU line to boulder.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

You clearly don't have a very strong knowledge of the RTD budget.

Sure I do, you just don't seem to like me pointing out that Boulder is actually doing what everyone else says that they want to do. You are also, deliberately I suspect, changing the subject from the authorization bill that passed to RTD's overall budget, because it gets you out of the sticky wicket that Boulder, as well as Denver and the rest of the RTD voted on the authorization with expectations of what they were going to get.

As far as the exact numbers, AFAIK, RTD doesn't have a exact breakdown of their revenue numbers by RTD district that I have ever seen (if you have seen one, I would love to see it). It's a bit hard to say the impact of sales plus ridership numbers, but with all the capital expenditures going on everywhere else with Fastracks, I find it impossible to believe that boulder is at the top of the outlays that RTD is making right now.

Ridership is a result of service provided, not vice versa.

This I disagree with. Boulder pioneered many of their routes themselves, and put the infrastructure in place with Go Boulder to make them succeed. Boulder put in the same kind of density laws that you all seem to favor now, yet you scorn the city because of this.

Look, I am no leftwing nutcase. I didn't vote for Obama. But I think what Boulder has done with transit is exactly correct.

Other cities also have EcoPasses.

According to the Daily Camera, Boulder subsidizes these much more then other cities, but you may be correct. Even outside of that, Go Boulder puts in a addition 30 million of their own money every year to help mutli-model transit.

If effective mass-transit is truly what you want, you should be focused on enabling it, not on penalizing it.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

Nice demagoguery though.

Thanks! And thanks for giving me credit for knowing what that big word means. I know it was a leap of faith for you. As for the parks comment I stand corrected. I recalled the cuts were to divert monies for repair/maintain a road in Denver at the expense of projects connected to several parks and rec type areas in Boulder. I can't find anything that jives with that so I'm going to put that in the log book of times I've been wrong.

Originally Posted by lostknight

I've never claimed that. You seem to have some anger issues.

You don't have to actually say the words when your insistence that Boulder at the expense of the entire metro area get to keep every scrap of what was "promised" by RTD says that for you.

Originally Posted by lostknight

I will take you at your word that you were not questioning that RTD committed to building the DMU line to boulder.

No one is questioning that. People have been questioning whether it should be kept when the budget just does not work. I'd like a sexy train too for Boulder and everywhere else. I'd LIKE the bus system to be scrapped without a second thought. I'd LIKE no more money to ever be spent on new road projects besides maintenance for the next century. The numbers seem to suggest, though, that the busses will actually be used and the rails won't.

Sexy is great! If I could have lots and lots of sexy time whenever I wanted I'd choose that. If someone said I had to choose between sexy time and eating I'd probably have to go with eating though.

Lets take RTD at its word that I-225 gets rail and Thornton gets rail... which one of those areas (admittedly WAY less important to God's plan than Boulder, clearly, but they still do have some sort of lower carbon based life forms running around there - I think), should we shaft?

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Thanks! And thanks for giving me credit for knowing what that big word means. I know it was a leap of faith for you.

Seriously. This is getting old. I've made no statements on your intellgence, or done nothing personal to you. Why do you keep attacking?

I can't find anything that jives with that so I'm going to put that in the log book of times I've been wrong.

One of the three - the 29th street corridor to flatirons - is a walking corridor. Multi-model in Boulder includes walking ;-) The Longmont projects that were also listed, as well as the remaining Boulder ones were transit. In addition Denver demanded the cancellation of clean air programs to make cash for the project. As I recall, it's something like a $50 million dollar improvement, and this would free up about $23 million, the bulk of which comes form the clean air program.

You don't have to actually say the words when your insistence that Boulder at the expense of the entire metro area get to keep every scrap of what was "promised" by RTD says that for you.

I've never said that because I don't believe it. In fact, I started this who freaken firestorm by calmly insisting that if the RTD asks for a tax raise, it should be enough to finish _all aspects_ of the original plan. Otherwise, it makes sense to kill the additional lines and do a mea culpa. A plan that steals from Peter to pay paul is not acceptable to me.

Lets take RTD at its word that I-225 gets rail and Thornton gets rail... which one of those areas (admittedly WAY less important to God's plan than Boulder, clearly, but they still do have some sort of lower carbon based life forms running around there - I think), should we shaft?

If they can not make the original plan, they should simply cancel the lines they don't have money for. Period. I understand that they want to protect their jobs, but they are in violation of the funding authorization. Come back to the voters, and let them prioritize.

It is, after all and inconveniently, a democracy.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

You seem to have some anger issues.

I have exageration issues maybe. The problem is, when I hear most people from Boulder talk I hear Douglas Bruce talking - it's just the harmony. You could be the exact same people with just one switch in the other direction.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

I love how people, not from Boulder, think that they can speak for Boulder. Not that I expect Denverites to understand, but there is politics, enthusiasm and support for "Light Rail" outside of the Denver suburbs, and backers in Boulder were key to Fasttrax getting through in the first place. Now welching on the "regional" part of RTD's mandate to deliver more to Denver will not be acceptable to Boulder, which generates a very large chunk of RTD's usage tax base.

The mayors understand elections, and they understand that unless they get Boulder Votes, they won't succeed. That means DMU service to Boulder is absolutely mandatory. It also means that if RTD decides to shut that down, the weight of lawsuits that would hit it from concerned groups in the People's Republic will be epic.

As things sit right now, I expect a tax increase for RTD to pass. However, the attitude on the hill that 700 million dollars in cuts will pacify deficit hawks in the country may end up poisoning attitudes in the state. That could doom it, but I don't think the difference between .25 and .40 cents would really make a difference in that scenario.

(And yes, I live in Boulder... and yes, I grew up in Boulder. And yes, I find a lot of Denverite's attitudes about Boulder infuriating. )

This was what started this discussion. If you can seriously read this and STILL not understand the hostility you have generated then I'll leave you alone. Next time though, when you lob a grenade at someone you usually don't end up just giving them a bump on the head. Also if you're going to deign to dumb down the terms so we don't have to figure out what DMU means.. you should probably spell the name of the program correctly... mmmkay?

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

I have exageration issues maybe. The problem is, when I hear most people from Boulder talk I hear Douglas Bruce talking

You really don't know Boulder then. It has just as many divergent opinions as anywhere else. Is it more left of center? Sure. I, for one, am well right of center other most of them.

You could be the exact same people with just one switch in the other direction.

All denver people Stereotype instead of discussing. ;-) For my stereotyping I apologize.

[lostknight]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

This was what started this discussion. If you can seriously read this and STILL not understand the hostility you have generated then I'll leave you alone. Next time though, when you lob a grenade at someone you don't end up just giving them a bump on the head.

If anything this discussion has re-enforced the beliefs. Note the above criticizing RTD's operational levels in Denver.

Pointing out that the R in RTD stands for regional, and that the attitude in denver about cancelling services to Boulder in favor of Denver centric services should not be a grenade. It should be a simple observational fact that in a Democracy, people band together to get what is in the common good. Boulder's been pioneering multi-model transit in the region, and asking voters to approve a Fastracks repair bill without services to boulder is insane on the face of it.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

You really don't know Boulder then. It has just as many divergent opinions as anywhere else. Is it more left of center? Sure. I, for one, am well right of center other most of them.



All denver people Stereotype instead of discussing. ;-)

They might... but I'm in West Hollywood so I wouldn't know. I'm actually fine with stereotyping... they exist for a reason, our brains are hardwired for them. You just have to allow for them not being absolute. However, I still feel like the 'tude you started this off with fits, generally, nicely with the "stereotype" of a Boulder resident. You may very well not act like that in person - as I can assure you I don't seem as black/white in person either.

[lostknight]

Let's put the shoe on the other foot. Let's imagine that RTD really screwed the numbers much more then they did. Let's pretend that they only had 10% of their original number, and the only service that they approved was the line to Boulder.

Can you imagine the outrage? Now, might you be able to see why People in Boulder might get upset at all of these Denverites calling for a fix bill that deliberately cut Boulder out?

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by lostknight

If anything this discussion has re-enforced the beliefs. Note the above criticizing RTD's operational levels in Denver.

Pointing out that the R in RTD stands for regional, and that the attitude in denver about cancelling services to Boulder in favor of Denver centric services should not be a grenade. It should be a simple observational fact that in a Democracy, people band together to get what is in the common good. Boulder's been pioneering multi-model transit in the region, and asking voters to approve a Fastracks repair bill without services to boulder is insane on the face of it.

Oh please Denver had a train before Boulder did. If you're claiming pioneering credit because you had a lot of buses then fine. You're a bus pioneer.

BTW I think it's brilliant that you've moved the conversation to assume that Boulder has a 0% chance of ending up with nothing. Warning of a world ending catastrophe if just the rail is cut means no one is even considering that Boulder wouldn't revolt openly if they got neither. Especially since Boulder needs anything at all less than the rest of the region does at this point - since as you keep insisting it is so clearly far ahead of the rest of the region. If we really want to make all the "Region" equal... maybe we should think about leaving Boulder alone to their astounding success while we spend all of the money in Fastracks on the rest of the poor backward Region.