Rail-based Transit Discussion

[someone123]

Gas transfer? What do you think this is, Ontario?

As far as I know NS collects around $60M and Halifax isn't promised any particular amount (I could be wrong). The fund officially goes to 58 "cities" in NS and most of it is probably spent on roads.

Vancouver on the other hand gets 12.5 cents on the liter.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well the city should be getting some federal money through what used to be called the new deal for cities and communities, and is now called the building canada plan.

I would imagine that helped fund the new farmers market for example (not that I have read anything ever on how it was funded)

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Is both ways or one way traffic?

Sorry - one way.

[dmac26]

I've always thought about a streetcar leaving from sportsplex terminal linking across the bridge (perhaps add another level under car traffic), and then hooking up to a track along the waterfront to the downtown. I would rather pay $2/bridge crossing and having that money pay for updated transit to the downtown.

[halifaxboyns]

I've been going through some of the data that Bombardier has on the various flexity train projects. I looked at the Brussel's one (which is what Vancouver had) and based on the technical information that train was able to handle a Maximum Gradient of 75‰. I haven't been able to through the rest - but I suspect there are a wide variety; as one I saw for Adelade was only 50‰.

The one they have for Strasbourg (which if I recall is one of the olympic bid cities for a future winter games) is 80%.

Here are some of the links:
Brussels.
Strasbourg.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by dmac26

I would rather pay $2/bridge crossing and having that money pay for updated transit to the downtown.

Oh if only we could do something like that.

Instead, the disfunction of how this bizarre municipality is set-up is that the bridge commission is provincial jurisdiction, and metro transit is city.

There is basically zero co-ordination in planning etc between the people who plan roads/bridges and the people who plan mass transit.

It would such a huge step forward for this city/municipality/community-of-communities/whatever to have a single co-ordinated regional transit authority.

[halifaxboyns]

I actually found the Strasbourg flyer that Bombardier produced. Here is the link. The ones used in Brussels (and tested out in Vancouver) can be found here. I think the Brussels ones are slightly longer than Strasbourg - I like the Brussels ones better just for the look. Added to that, they can do 75‰ which should be more than enough for any hills in Halifax.

The other thing I forgot to add to this post was how the street platforms could be done when the streetcar blends with existing traffic. In places like Hollis or along Agricola, you could still keep the street parking - but setup the platform to blend in with the existing sidewalk and then include a small shelter. This is an example of the Portland Streetcar system in the Pearle district - where there are really narrow streets (more so it seems than Halifax). But as you can see, the street parking is maintained and then the platform is part of the sidewalk and curb system. This is what I was thinking along some of the major streets, so that you still have parking but a platform too.

[planarchy]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I actually found the Strasbourg flyer that Bombardier produced. Here is the link. The ones used in Brussels (and tested out in Vancouver) can be found here. I think the Brussels ones are slightly longer than Strasbourg - I like the Brussels ones better just for the look. Added to that, they can do 75‰ which should be more than enough for any hills in Halifax.

The other thing I forgot to add to this post was how the street platforms could be done when the streetcar blends with existing traffic. In places like Hollis or along Agricola, you could still keep the street parking - but setup the platform to blend in with the existing sidewalk and then include a small shelter. This is an example of the Portland Streetcar system in the Pearle district - where there are really narrow streets (more so it seems than Halifax). But as you can see, the street parking is maintained and then the platform is part of the sidewalk and curb system. This is what I was thinking along some of the major streets, so that you still have parking but a platform too.

I've used those in Brussels quite a bit and they're fantastic. They definitely make some good climbs, although I have no idea what the slope would be. They are used though both as metros and trams on the same line which seems to work well.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by planarchy

They are used though both as metros and trams on the same line which seems to work well.

This, I think, would be great for Halifax. A subway clearly isn't feasible but streetcars are and their routes can always be improved over time as money becomes available. It makes a huge amount of sense to tunnel under small congested areas but run at street level in other parts of the city.

[hfx_chris]

The Macdonald bridge never will and never has in the past had streetcars/tramcars running over it. It didn't even exist when Halifax was running tramcars. It did however have trolleycoaches running over it.
The weight of the tracks alone would probably be prohibitive.

I'm not a fan of having on street parking on the same side as a tramcar/streetcar, especially with the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 parallel parking jobs people do here (and delivery trucks). You can't maneuver around cars parked too far from the curb, unlike say a trolleycoach. On street parking on the other side of the road might make more sense if it's a one-way street. Or, lay the tracks on the other side of the road and use trams with doors on both sides.

[halifaxboyns]

I'd have to agree with someone - a subway is pretty impractical except for small sections. Portland's system is a combination of both streetcar and LRT - both of which run in the street and use the same gauge so technically they could run on the same tracks but currently don't except when there is a car failure.

I wasn't sure if there was a streetcar over the bridges, but Chris confirms my suspicion - a streetcar wouldn't be workable across the harbour (over the bridges). This could create an issue in the sense that the streetcars would be restricted geographically. I'd hate to suggest a special bridge just to get them across as I can only imagine how expensive it would be.

The cool think about the Flexity models is that the doors are on either side of the car - so depending on the situation, the operator can activate the appropriate doors. When I looked at the streets in Portland through streetview, they were pretty narrow and had parking on both sides of the street. So I'm sure you could put parking on a street with a streetcar - just as you suggest Chris.

I'm just not sure how to get the streetcars across the harbour...if possible at all? Thoughts? Personally; I'd rather (if it's cheaper) keep a streetcar system restricted geographically and then utilize the articulated buses to get people over the bridges (in cooperation with ferries). Metro Transit could bring back a route similar to the old #11 - which basically went between the Bridge Terminal to Scotia Square and back.

I found this video from Sam Adams (who was then the commissioner for the streetcar; he's now the Mayor of Portland). I though this might be interesting.
You tube video 1
You tube video 2

[someone123]

There's already talk of a third bridge so maybe that could handle streetcars. It's controversial but the reality is that it's a pretty basic requirement for a city built around a body of water.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I'm just not sure how to get the streetcars across the harbour...if possible at all? Thoughts?

Build a rapid transit tunnel rather than a new harbour bridge.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

There's already talk of a third bridge so maybe that could handle streetcars. It's controversial but the reality is that it's a pretty basic requirement for a city built around a body of water.

That could work - only issue is: While I think it could include an LRT and that's fine...anyone who is trying to take the LRT to say Shannon Park or Wallace Heights or Highland Park will end up having to go through that tunnel and then back track all the way back through Dartmouth to get there.

OR, you could then just follow the circumfrential - but then you might miss areas which might be important or vital to connect too because they are high density areas (like King's wharf) or could be areas which could redevelop.

On the plus side though - if you did it that way, you could have the last station in Halifax be the train station and near Pier 21/Farmers Market and then an interconnection to regional rail (on top of the LRT).

When I think about establishing good public transit in Halifax; I keep in mind an old saying someone told me. If you want them out of the cars - you must be faster than the cars. So my only worry using the '3rd crossing' is either it never happens, or it adds so much time that it makes the trip longer (so wouldn't encourage people out of their cars). I'd definately be open to trying to find some sort of solution though...

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Build a rapid transit tunnel rather than a new harbour bridge.

It makes no sense to build something that expensive that is only used for one thing -- one bus an hour after 6PM.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It makes no sense to build something that expensive that is only used for one thing -- one bus an hour after 6PM.

If a 3rd crossing is built there is no doubt that it would have to include a crossing for cars. It would make no sense even from an environmental stand-point to force people to drive farther down the harbour to take another bridge.

But, just as you said (LOL), a bridge for only one use isn't a good idea, so any forward-looking crossing project should be mixed use... car lanes with additional lanes with ROW for rapid mass transit. It makes no sense building something that expensive that is used for only one thing!

[fenwick16]

What about focusing growth on the Halifax side and then the third bridge doesn't have to be built at all? If it is built though, I have a feeling that it will be the least expensive option - a twin MacKay Bridge which isn't as useful for rapid transit. The MacDonald area is too congested for a twin bridge and the south harbour crossing will likely be too expensive and restrict harbour shipping traffic. A tunnel would be even more expensive.

Just think of all the infrastructutre that could be built on the Halifax side if growth were focused there - LRT, a North West Arm crossing, and maybe even community rail to Bedford.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

What about focusing growth on the Halifax side and then the third bridge doesn't have to be built at all? If it is built though, I have a feeling that it will be the least expensive option - a twin MacKay Bridge which isn't as useful for rapid transit. The MacDonald area is too congested for a twin bridge and the south harbour crossing will likely be too expensive and restrict harbour shipping traffic. A tunnel would be even more expensive.

Just think of all the infrastructutre that could be built on the Halifax side if growth were focused there - LRT, a North West Arm crossing, and maybe even community rail to Bedford.

The problem with focusing all the development to the Halifax side is fairness to land owners. While I'm not a fan of land speculators and developers who buy land under assumptions - if you only focus on the Halifax side, you end up playing favorites to those land owners over others. It's a hard balancing act, but might be worth it in the end.

I was reading a study a couple months ago about human behaviour and transit. It had mainly to do with how far people are willing to walk to get to transit and smart planning of routes. What it showed was that we prefer direct routes, but are willing to put up with transfers provided they are quick and easy. But this study showed we're only willing to put up with one transfer at most, provided the total trip time was faster than a car. My office is a mess, I'll have to try to find it to get more specifics (I'm going from memory). That's why when you see TOD plans, the distance they affect is usually no more than 400 to 600m - that's about 10 to 20 minutes walking distance.

So, with that in mind my suspicion would be that most people would be willing to take a streetcar from places in Dartmouth and then make a quick transfer to get across to Halifax provided their destination was along the bus route they transfer onto. If another transfer was required, then you get into it becoming a hastle. But, my guess would be that if the total trip time was still less than driving, than people would be willing to do it. So a bus across the bridge might still work (transfering from a streetcar), but that's a guess.

For example: Someone lives in Highland Park and works at Dalhousie University. So they would board a streetcar to the Bridge Terminal, transfer to a bus. Then again to a streetcar to Dalhousie. Now, if I remember the study correctly - while there is a lot of transfer, the tendancy would be to accept that if the total travel time is less than 1 car trip. But if it's not, people will drive.

I really should find that study...

[brettinhalifax]

account deleted

[halifaxboyns]

So going further into my research on streetcars; I went back and looked at the Portland Streetcar again (as I suggested a line for Agricola and through downtown).

I'm putting the final touches on my suggested streetcar line for the Halifax side and I want to note sites where redevelopment could be available down the road.

But I found it interesting looking at the Portland Streetcar website that they have private business within the various districts that the streetcar services. They also have a program called Ride and Dine, where restaurants all along the streetcar are put into a flyer available on the streetcar that gives a map and brief description of each. To get on the flyer, you must sponsor and from what I've been able to find all the restaurants in these areas have done so. I may be wrong. Here is the flyer.

The other thing I found interesting is that they've secured Car, Stop and Shelter sponsors all up and down the route from various businesses. So the level of sponsorship ranges by what you decide to do. This might be a great way to further fund a streetcar system, especially if we are in the time of BD and all the penny pincher's who would be negative to anything.

For more information - have a look at this.
I also found this very interesting report too. 3.5 billion $ within 2 blocks of the streetcar! Impressive!