Transit Fantasies

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

err... xD

The only problem I see of your dream to see HSR connecting Vancouver and the rest of western Canada is that it is just that... a dream. = \ The current transport, political, and economic situation surrounding inter-Canada travel is that:
- there's very low demand for such a service
- build costs will be high, especially in BC with the Rockies in the way
- returns may be very small due to low ridership
- in effect, it's unlikely unless there's a string of new cities built along the way, which will never happen in today's world due to all the environmental assessments and such.

Well, the MOST expensive and complex part would probably be through boggy lake lands in Ontario (as it was with the original Transcontinental). You would have to contend with unstable land and impassible lakes. At least with mountains, while it might take years, you can tunnel through them and what you get is very stable and suitable for high speed rail.

But what you bring up is what people brought up when building the Transcontinental railroad. It's hard, expensive, and who is going to use it. CP borrowed tens of millions (comparable to billions today) from the federal government, and then paid it back in just a few years. It prompted multiple railroad companies to build highly complex railways throughout BC. Some failed, but some remain (the ones that failed were mostly due to low employment in towns stations were located in, competition from other railroads, and the arrival of roads and cheap cars).

And transcontinental HSR would have a lot of benefits besides passenger service. Imagine how much fuel is burned from carrying mail and parcels on planes and trucks. As fuel gets more and more expensive, ground shipping via HSR could be the only way to quickly get priority mail across the country without it costing $100 to mail an envelope. I believe they have dedicated mail trains in France running on the TGV, and freight passes through the Chunnel daily. We could ship fresh salmon to Toronto and the Maritimes could send us lobsters, fresh. HSR could change a lot more than just passenger service.

And as jet fuel does become increasingly expensive, shorter trips via rail might be the only way to travel reliably. A friend went to see her family in Kelowna for Christmas. She took the bus on the day before boxing day. The red-eye overnight bus was so full, they put on an extra 3 buses to handle the load. A friend of mine went to Kamploops for Christmas, he took the train (The Canadian) and said it was perfect, a bit longer than the bus, but far more comfortable. I would say there is a lot of potential demand, especially as Vancouver moves away from being car centric. As more people give up the car and get around on Transit in Vancouver, they are going to need ways to travel outside the city. If there is no way to travel throughout BC without needing a car, many people will never give it up. You can whip them with the stick all you want but it won't work, sometimes they really crave that carrot.

[Millennium2002]

Nice words. I'm always interested in your opinions.

You do raise some very good points: I'm surprised that they were able to build the railway at a profit (although maybe the result of that came from cutting corners in construction and exploiting cheap Chinese labour), and the convenience of car travel makes it somewhat difficult for the market to be penetrated. It's not impossible, but it'll require a bit of a big push. Having said that I have dreamed of HSR from here to Seattle, Portland, Spokane, Kamloops, Kelowna, Prince George, and Prince Rupert. =O

The railway discussion brings up something else of note: I've heard over and over that the freight rail network is congested here in Vancouver, and yet the province is seemingly wary of investing after the BC Rail fiasco, which is a shame considering that we may be losing business. I think they need to crack the whip sooner or later and nationalize the trackage and property rights and expand the mainlines (note that rolling stock is not part of the plan and remains the property of the railways).

[xd_1771]

I guess my ideas are a bit overdue here...

This map sort of more centres on Surrey, but my planned transit map would encompass the whole of Metro Vancouver. My concept is still in its infancy as of now.
The main idea is to keep those busy routes unobstructed while still providing options that would be acceptable for everyone. Thus, a combination of most transit forms are used: RRT, LRT and BRT. Without further ado:

Long dashed lines - BRT
Closely-spaced dots - LRT
Short dahsed lines - ART/RRT [Skytrain technology]

Nothing's really explained here on the map, so sadly I'll have to do it in text.
-Expo line will be continued to Langley via Fraser Highway and will connect Willowbrook and Langley Centre via the defined route. The area between 152nd & King George station is dashed, this route could be replaced with a 152nd overhead route that passes through Guildford instead.
-A new Skytrain line as I have explained before will connect Newton, Whalley & Guildford. The line will pass over King George without obstructing current road flow. On the Newton end, the line will recurve and terminate parallel to the rail tracks (I've been told that a new Newton transit terminal will somehow coincide with this). On the Guildford end, the line splits off just after Surrey Central station and takes 108th east; close to 152nd it curves south and ends right smack dab over the new planned Guildford Town Centre bus loop.
-Three new LRT lines will be built in Surrey:
---The first connects Guildford with cloverdale. It is routed along non-busy routes 100th, 156th, 80th (some of this portion will be off-road), and 148th towards a new transit terminal near 152nd & 64th. The line is designed to pass through mostly residential areas as well as the major Fleetwood town centre and close to the Bell Centre. Continuing on, the route takes 64th to Cloverdale. 64th is a fairly busy road as it is, but with Highway 10 only 8 blocks south I don't think sacrificing it to LRT would be a huge problem (i.e. sharing one of the lanes).
---Second route connects Newton with South Surrey (most of tihs section is off the map). It basically continues the Skytrain line, meeting with the Guildford-Cloverdale line at the 152nd/64th exchange, taking 152nd south and switching over to King George Highway. It would pass via King George then return to 152nd, and terminate at Semiahmoo Ctr.
---Third route might interest you all a bit more. It connects Newton with 22nd St. Station. It travels west at-grade (or elevated, whichever should work best) on 72nd, then travels north elevated over 120th (unless an alternate route nearby can be devised; I don't really think putting an LRT at-grade on 120th would be a good idea). It then curves left onto 88th just north of Nordel, tunnels through some hills & residential areas, then passes over a new bridge onto Annacis Island and then another to Queensborough. It takes Howes St. through Queensborough, passes over another bridge over the north Arm & Marine Way, and then curves to meet 22nd station. This route basically replaces some of the 388 bus route and provides a much better connection to 22nd St. & beyond from most of Surrey, as a new transit alternative to using the Alex Fraser Bridge by vehicle.
-BRT routes exist: the first is the already planned RapidBus service along Rte 1, from Guildford > Walnut Grove
---A BRT runs between Pitt Meadows to Langley via Walnut Grove, Golden Ears bridge. This service is more frequent between Walnut Grove & Langley to coincide with Hwy 1 RapidBus.
---BRT connects Cloverdale to Langley, and to a station on the extended Expo Line near Rte 15/Fraser Highway, therefore making Cloverdale fully rapid transit accessible.
---The last BRT route runs along 88th; one might argue that light rail or ART be placed here, though it is a busy route. The reason I don't want to put a huge form of mass transit here is because I really don't want any major exchanges near Bear Creek Park. Exchanges = development, development = that's it for Bear Creek Park, it's over.
-I've also got some other items planned/incomplete, such as that ART extension from Guildford into Coquitlam that isn't complete.
-You may also notice some of my road-related concepts, i.e. new Patullo, Stormont Connector, some of my Serpentine Frwy. ideal route, on the left a small part of the SFPR > 91 > Boundary Rd connector Highway... I'll get into more detail about those when they are complete.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

-You may also notice some of my road-related concepts, i.e. new Patullo, Stormont Connector, some of my Serpentine Frwy. ideal route, on the left a small part of the SFPR > 91 > Boundary Rd connector Highway... I'll get into more detail about those when they are complete.

Actually that's the one thing that caught my eye... post your concept now!

Also, there needs to be a station between 182-184, there is a lot of transit potential around there.

[xd_1771]

Posted on the roads fantasy thread
In addition, an update to my Surrey transit map:

What's new:
-Future/optional stations now marked in grey
-Some stations rearranged
-Extension of light blue line into South Surrey now shown (Inset A)
-Expo line extension can be rerouted through Guildford (faded blue line south of Guildford) - optional
-New Guildford - Fraser Heights - Walnut Grove LRT line - via 150th, 100th, 160th, 108th, 168th, 104th, GE connector, 96th - helps complement crowded C74 bus line & serves Port Kells
-22nd St - Bridgeport LRT line (light green, Inset B) - to replace/complement buses 400, 410
-Nordel-Scott Rd Station BRT line along 120th (very light blue)
-Beginnings of an SFPR BRT line to Ladner/Tsawassen/etc from Scott Rd station
-Fort Langley is connected by BRT for now

[Millennium2002]

Most of your lines closely resemble mine, which is a good thing... i guess we can easily identify where transit is needed after Broadway and Evergreen are done.

Having said that, I'm not so positive about the ridership of some lines... especially the Lime Line, Brown Line, and Red Line. =S In addition the services all seem to be a bit disconnected at the interchanges... would it be more efficient to interline some of them?

(looks at his own map)

(umm... maybe a few lines can be BRT after all. =O)

[xd_1771]

If by Red Line you mean the one extending north from Guildford, that's something I'm working on still. I'm having a hard time deciding whether to continue it to Braid/Lougheed, or Coquitlam Centre, or both... it doesn't really seem to work out.

The brown line is meant to replace some current buses like 388 and provide a direct transit alternative to the Alex Fraser Bridge. I think more Transit alternatives to certain bridges are starting to become more necessary; this new route would take a lot of commuter traffic off the Alex Fraser and perhaps relieve Nordel as well. Think of how well it works in some cases such as SkyBridge/Patullo Bridge.

The lime line would be busier than you think. I've ridden the 410 many times to get to Aberdeen Ctr. from 22nd St, it's actually used fairly often. The lime line would also replace the 400 bus and all those other Richmond-bound buses. It would also give new, useful transit connections to the IKEA (which will soon be expanded), as well as the Summer Night Market.

The routing for most of all the other lines was chosen so as to provide connections while minimizing impact on those routes we absolutely don't want to touch. Now that I think of it 152nd may not be so bad a candidate for LRT (though 156th would be excellent after some upgrades), but 104th would be a definite no-no, especially from 152nd and eastward. There's a good reason my Highway 1 Rapidbus takes the long route via 100th and 150th rather than turning on 104th and having to pass through the hectic 154th light (not to mention, in the eastbound direction the bus'd have to face the NB 156th left turn which is crowded enough, going to get worse, and is unfixable due to the closing of the 152nd fraser heights entrance). Some services make up for others (i.e. Hwy1 rapidbus AND the blue-green Guildford-Fraser Hts-Port Kells-Walnut Grove line. Sometimes the routes split up just before the station on purpose - i.e. Guildford line splitting off before Gateway Station - to give more purpose to other stations (in this case Surrey Central station).

Another update of my transit map in development has a gondola in White Rock between the LRT station (another station deeper into White Rock than on the current map) and the Pier area. I thought of it just now, though I have a feeling it's been thought of before somehow...

[Millennium2002]

Giving purpose to other stations?

Frankly I try to push for the opposite... which is to have as many connections as possible in one station. Sometimes the distance is a bit longer but it's more convenient for passengers to just relax a bit longer before they have to get off rather than asking them to get on and off like 6 times within a 30 minute journey. =O

In addition, because you are spreading the interchanges out there's a potential that very brief short sections of the lines connecting two or more interchanges together will be absolutely jammed while everywhere else will be fine, which is really difficult to properly accomodate by just adding or removing trains alone. Placing them all under one roof is better in that you can just make the station building and capacity larger provided you have the space to do so.

Having said that my map doesn't take that to the extreme like it used to (like trying to terminate all the LRT lines in Surrey).

[Canadian Mind]

I would hope that a skytrain system could be devised where passengers have to perform no more than 1 or 2 transfers to get from one station to another. As an example, having to jump from Evergreen to Expo to Canada Line is the max number of transfers that should be required.

[DKaz]

HSR won't take off until the days of cheap airfare is gone.

Vancouver to Calgary...

Airplane:
-Costs ~$500 round trip currently
-Takes 2.5 hours including security process.
-Half an hour from both downtown cores to respective airports.

HSR:
-Would also cost ~$600 round trip
-Would take 4.5 to 5.5 hours, including security process, assuming 250km/h average speed for non stop and 200km/h with stops in Abbotsford, Kamloops, and Banff, and half an hour for security.

Until HSR costs less than 2/3 as much as an airplane ticket, it won't be financially feasible yet. Cheap energy is also why people drive big SUVs and use inefficient home heating systems.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

Since the thread is titled "transit fantasies", I'm going to say I would love to see a high speed train in western Canada...hitting up Vancouver to Winnipeg, going through Calgary and Regina would be sweeeeet (hey why not extend one to Edmonton & Saskatoon too via their own inter-provincial high speed lines??)

I will keep on dreaming, and you guys can keep posting these impressive skytrain possibilities

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

err... xD

The only problem I see of your dream to see HSR connecting Vancouver and the rest of western Canada is that it is just that... a dream. = \ The current transport, political, and economic situation surrounding inter-Canada travel is that:
- there's very low demand for such a service
- build costs will be high, especially in BC with the Rockies in the way
- returns may be very small due to low ridership
- in effect, it's unlikely unless there's a string of new cities built along the way, which will never happen in today's world due to all the environmental assessments and such.

Yes, realistically I don't see it happening haha I am aware it is more than a pipe dream.

Something that is somewhat related to the "Transit Fantasy" title however not related what-so-ever to Rapid Transit, would be perhaps if WestJet or (less likely) Air Canada had a "western Canada" frequent flyer incentive style deal where perhaps a roundtrip ticket is 40% off if you fly more or something. Hey a guy a can dream right

Originally Posted by trofirhen

One possible corridor might be Calgary - Edmonton. A high speed rail link between those two cities would beat the once (or is it twice) per day BUDD Car that they have now .... (pathetic)!!

Yeah, this would be the only realistic endeavour in this scenario. Most of Calgarian friends travel to Edmonton very often, and somewhat frequently. One particular friend comes to mind, who almost ever other weekend attends the U of A, and drives to Calgary for a night then back to Edmonton the next day.

[DKaz]

Edmonton-Calgary would be a very good start, and an extension to Banff would be very easy and set the precedent for a Vancouver extension one day.

Airplane including security check and 30 minute drive between YYC and Downtown Calgary and 45 minute drive between YEG and Downtown Edmonton -- 3 hours 15 minutes, $460 return

Drive between the two cities - 3 hours, $270 return assuming 45 cents per km

HSR including security check in assuming 15 minute drive from downtown cores -- less than 2.5 hours, $300??

It really shouldn't cost too much to build this corridor, and they have oil money. Just need the right forward thinking government...

[jsbertram]

The Calgary Herald ran a special section on the "Bullet Train Debate" few years ago.

http://www2.canada.com/calgaryherald/features/train/index.html


It's funny to read that Premier Lougheed was pushing for a HSR line as far back as 1981.


I remember in the 70's when Edmonton and Calgary were planning to expand their airports for the new 747 jumbo jets, there was a proposal to build a new International Airport near Red Deer, with Japanese Bullet Trains connecting Downtown Edmonton, Downtown Calgary and their respective airports (Edmonton Municipal, Edmonton International and Calgary McCall) to the new Red Deer International.

This was around the time that Montreal Mirabel was happening, so there was a 'can do' belief that having an Alberta Super-Airport handling all the jumbo jets for international traffic, and letting the Edmonton and Calgary airports handle the 'regular' Canadian jet traffic would be a workable solution with the bullet trains making the new Alberta Super-Airport less than an hour away from Edmonton or Calgary.


I've heard the current HSR proposal connects Calgary, Red Deer and Edmonton downtown HSR stations to the Calgary & Edmonton International Airports.

I'm also hearing that Lethbridge is miffed they aren't included in these plans.

[wrenegade]

Pffft, Lethbridge. Total waste of time for the money. Red Deer happens to be in the middle, but it is all Edmonton/Calgary driving the plan. Banff would be neat, but unnecessary I think. An hour and 15 minute drive isn't bad at all.

HSR will never happen between Vancouver and Calgary. The astronomical cost of tunnelling through the mountains to achieve a decent trip length would probably make train fares in the thousands. It would never reach airplane travel times either, and cost probably 10 times as much. HSR will only work in major road corridors. 401 Toronto to Montreal via Kingston and Ottawa, with expansion to London, Windsor and perhaps Quebec City is one, and Calgary-Red Deer-Edmonton is the other. Nothing else makes sense in Canada. I'd love to see Vancouver-Seattle-Portland, but the border is a bit of an issue and the section between Bellingham and Mt. Vernon would be expensive.

[DKaz]

As I said, the more the cost of energy sky rockets, the more viable HSR becomes.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by DKaz

As I said, the more the cost of energy sky rockets, the more viable HSR becomes.

And we have spent billions getting us to this point in air travel. Airports aren't free.

Like I said earlier, the major customer of trans-Canadian HSR would be mail. Standard post would go from taking 3 or 4 days Toronto-Vancouver to 1 day. And tracks could be used by frieght as well, decreasing spoilage and overall cost (way fewer drivers would be needed to get things across the country fast).

The other thing to consider is that while expensive, this wouldn't be a 4 year mega project like we are used to in BC. Even if trans Canadian HSR would cost $100 billion, the project would take well over 30 years to complete, and building it at a slower pace would save costs. Is $3 billion a year to build HSR really too much to afford?

The Gotthard Base tunnel project started in 1996 and won't finish until 2017 (21 years) for a 151km worth of tunnels and shafts. Total cost: $10 billion. Alpstransit is expected to cost $13 billion, and the Swiss have collected almost $25 billion in taxes specifically for HSR upgrades as they have a no new highway policy, and plan to shift truck shipping to HSR.

Yes, HSR to Calgary would be expensive, but I don't think it's out of our reach in terms of 30-50 year time frame.

[trofirhen]

IMHO, HSR east out of Vancouver is impractical, (read unfeasible) for the next few decades anyway, for reasons previously cited. To Seattle and Portland? ... maybe .....

Between Calgary and Edmonton?
Yes, a very good place to start; no mountains to tunnel through, just the main line to upgrade (probably using overhead electric alimentation, as in most of Europe), and of course the cost of the trains themselves, be they Ahlstom or Siemens.

[Spork]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

IMHO, HSR east out of Vancouver is impractical, (read unfeasible) for the next few decades anyway, for reasons previously cited. To Seattle and Portland? ... maybe .....

Between Calgary and Edmonton?
Yes, a very good place to start; no mountains to tunnel through, just the main line to upgrade (probably using overhead electric alimentation, as in most of Europe), and of course the cost of the trains themselves, be they Ahlstom or Siemens.

Bombardier! http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/en/home/index.html

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Spork

Bombardier! http://www.zefiro.bombardier.com/desktop/en/home/index.html

So wait, we have (or at least own) the technology to produce a 380kph/235mph train?

Why aren't we jumping to build HSR here in Canada with connections to the states? if we built to cities like Seattle via Vancouver, Detroit & Buffalo via a Hamilton Line, and Syracuse/Albany via Ottawa and Montreal, the Americans would be very much inclined to use our technology which is already being proven and close to home. The implications and benifits could be huge!

[jlousa]

Don't think the problem is the trains, it's the tracks. 1000's of kms of track thru some pretty unforgiving terrain. Could it be done, sure but is it worth it? Probably not today.