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  #2321  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 9:01 PM
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I hope you email your ward alderman with your idea! It sounds great!
     
     
  #2322  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Frink, YNAT and I had a little bit of discussion on twitter about this and I would like to give some more detail to the idea of a supplementary fare for any future transit to the airport. Several cities I have been to do this, including Barcelona (uses the Renfe Rodalies system rather than the TMB metro system, but the fares are coordinated. The airport is about a euro more than a typical fare), San Fran (the BART uses a distance based fare, so the airport fits into the system) and Madrid. Madrid I think has the system that we can emulate. When you go to the airport, or from the airport, you have to pay a supplementary fee. When you get to the airport, you have to pass through a gate, and to do so, you need to insert your supplementary fee token. You can buy it at any metro station or if you forget it, you can buy it when you arrive at the airport station (credit, debit or cash of course). You only need to insert the supplementary fee when you enter the airport, not the full fare (which you would have had to pay to get onto the metro at your origin station). When you depart from the airport you have to pay both the regular fare, and the supplementary fare.

The same system could easily work for any future Calgary Airport transit. The transit station will simply have fare gates set up where you have to insert a supplementary fee token to pass through. You will have to do this both to enter the airport and leave the airport by transit. It will be easy to integrate with our current fare system, because only the airport will require the supplementary fee, and it is controlled by a gate. And the fee can be paid at the airport station itself.

This could serve as a capital cost recovery mechanism for any transit trips to the airport.

Thoughts?
I think our context is different from that of the examples listed. We're a smaller city (population wise) and our airport is closer than 25% (est.) of our population. So A. we don't have oodles of people who are jumping for this such that we could charge and be happy with a smaller proportion of the folks who may have used a normal fare option, and B. it seems a little bit of an odd tax given so many people live further out. Are we considering a surcharge for the SE leg of the LRT? Hmmm ... perhaps we should. Certainly anything past 22X should be charged! That's easily over twice the distance to DT as the airport!!!

Maybe after we get people hooked on transit to and from the airport we can throw this at them. If the first day the LRT opened in the 80's we had a 'pay to park and ride' system, it would have shot the system in the foot the day it was born.
     
     
  #2323  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 9:30 PM
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^^I don't think paying an extra dollar or dollar fifty is going to drive people to pay $30 for a cab ride instead, or pay the long term parking.

My only thing is airport/airline employees should get an exemption.


Vancouver charges a $5 surcharge to enter or leave the airport zone, making the fare between YVR and anywhere in Vancouver proper cost $8.75, and $10.00 to go to Surrey. Zoned fair pricing is being tossed around, but I would only support it if the base fare was lowed significantly, to $2 or lower.
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  #2324  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 9:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Frink, YNAT and I had a little bit of discussion on twitter about this and I would like to give some more detail to the idea of a supplementary fare for any future transit to the airport. Several cities I have been to do this, including Barcelona (uses the Renfe Rodalies system rather than the TMB metro system, but the fares are coordinated. The airport is about a euro more than a typical fare), San Fran (the BART uses a distance based fare, so the airport fits into the system) and Madrid. Madrid I think has the system that we can emulate. When you go to the airport, or from the airport, you have to pay a supplementary fee. When you get to the airport, you have to pass through a gate, and to do so, you need to insert your supplementary fee token. You can buy it at any metro station or if you forget it, you can buy it when you arrive at the airport station (credit, debit or cash of course). You only need to insert the supplementary fee when you enter the airport, not the full fare (which you would have had to pay to get onto the metro at your origin station). When you depart from the airport you have to pay both the regular fare, and the supplementary fare.

The same system could easily work for any future Calgary Airport transit. The transit station will simply have fare gates set up where you have to insert a supplementary fee token to pass through. You will have to do this both to enter the airport and leave the airport by transit. It will be easy to integrate with our current fare system, because only the airport will require the supplementary fee, and it is controlled by a gate. And the fee can be paid at the airport station itself.

This could serve as a capital cost recovery mechanism for any transit trips to the airport.

Thoughts?
I would say it depends on who is paying for the capital costs. If the Airport wants to charge an additional fare to cover a significant contribution from them, well that is there business. I am not sure if it would really make sense for the city to do it though. Why would we charge people connecting from the NE LRT to the N LRT less than people stopping halfway in between.

Also, the likely final situation for rapid rail access to the Airport would involve a non stop service on Commuter/HSR track from downtown to 96 Ave and then a transfer to the terminal. It would seem kind of insane to charge someone $4.00 to travel all of a mile and a half after already charging them for the commuter rail fare.
     
     
  #2325  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffwhit View Post
My only thing is airport/airline employees should get an exemption.
That would be good common ground in my books. Create the surcharge with the above exemption

Now would you do away with the free 30 minutes short term parking too?

[I say no as I like to concept of making the airport more than just a place to get away from - heck I like to go there and have a cup of coffee looking at the planes once in a while]
     
     
  #2326  
Old Posted Feb 8, 2011, 10:37 PM
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Well, looking at the Canada Line, 1 you can have supplemental fares without expensive gates.

2, the line has 11% modal share for passengers. So 1.87 million passengers. Only passengers pay the add fare (people using passes are assumed to be employees and don't pay the add fare) which helps pay for the additional operating costs of the spur.

To pay off the capital cost of the YVR contribution to the Canada Line over 30 years assuming no financing charges and flat mode share and pax numbers would require an additional add fare of $5.36.

I don't think we should build an airport LRT link in the first place, but I also don't think that if we do that we should try to recover capital costs. Transit is there partly for captive riders and should be as cheap as possible.

With the underpass, I think people will be surprised how fast the express bus from Saddletown will be. 7 km on the bus will be 10 minutes or so. So two buses for 15 minute service will cost $1.2 million plus maybe 300k operating a year. This is versus 7 km of LRT, enough cars to keep headway on the spur (maybe 12 or so with no stops in between if use Tuscany as the model), and all the operating costs. Just because it looks close on a map doesn't make it close.
     
     
  #2327  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffwhit View Post
Vancouver charges a $5 surcharge to enter or leave the airport zone, making the fare between YVR and anywhere in Vancouver proper cost $8.75, and $10.00 to go to Surrey. Zoned fair pricing is being tossed around, but I would only support it if the base fare was lowed significantly, to $2 or lower.
I purchased a book of ten - no surcharge except of an additional amount if traveling to zone 2 or 3.
     
     
  #2328  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 1:53 AM
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I like the idea for those leaving the airport, but the idea of "you have to pay to leave the station" at the airport seems a bit odd. Then again, maybe that's fine, the vast majority of people will be both arriving at, and leaving the airport, very few will be going to the airport and never making a return trip home from it. I prefer that you pay extra to get on the train from the airport, but that with any trip you don't have to worry about inserting a special ticket to get out of the station.
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  #2329  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 2:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Blader View Post
I purchased a book of ten - no surcharge except of an additional amount if traveling to zone 2 or 3.
Whenever friends or family visit me in Van and fly into YVR I always recommend they stop at the 7-11 at the airport and buy tickets to avoid the surcharge. They'll need the tickets anyway once they get into town.

Very exciting to hear that Council voted 8-7 in favour of the airport underpass!

Also exciting to see Nenshi and Stelmach talking about the MSI - bring it to the forefront of the public dialogue so that would-be successors can't side-step it during leadership campaigns. Exciting times in Calgary indeed
     
     
  #2330  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 5:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suburb View Post
That would be good common ground in my books. Create the surcharge with the above exemption

Now would you do away with the free 30 minutes short term parking too?

[I say no as I like to concept of making the airport more than just a place to get away from - heck I like to go there and have a cup of coffee looking at the planes once in a while]
The free parking is part of one YYC's sillier initiatives to make YYC a shopping and dining destination...
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  #2331  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
The free parking is part of one YYC's sillier initiatives to make YYC a shopping and dining destination...
Is this serious? If so, facepalm.
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  #2332  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 6:43 AM
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Yup, originally it was called Shop@YYC, there was even advertising for it. Now they just call it ShopAirport.
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  #2333  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 2:45 PM
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30 minute parking is so great for picking up people - at YYZ it is a schmozzle by comparison - they don't even have a proper cell phone waiting lot, they just designated a shoulder on an on-ramp for the purpose.
     
     
  #2334  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 3:58 PM
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Automated LEGO C-Train setup. 2 trains (one old, one new), 3 Stations (Zoo Station, one old downtown, one new downtown). Check out near the end where you can see the LEDs that change colours on the roof canopy of the new downtown station, just like they do on the real version.

Video Link
     
     
  #2335  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Policy Wonk View Post
The free parking is part of one YYC's sillier initiatives to make YYC a shopping and dining destination...
Wow, that's a bizarre motivation. I always figured it was designed to drive high turnover in limited parking, which it does fairly effectively. I generally try to time my pickups/dropoffs so that I'm always in and out within 30, and I'm far from alone on that.
     
     
  #2336  
Old Posted Feb 9, 2011, 5:06 PM
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Rose the train south from McKnight to Whitehorn this morning, and I was standing at the very North end of the train - closest to the stationhead at Whitehorn. When I got off the train, I was surprised at how far away from the station I was.

Yes, that means that Whitehorn station is now a 4 car platfrom, all open to the public.

All the snow has been really slowing down progress on getting the south platform access done however, they got some work done last week, but now there is snow covering their curb forms, and also where they need to pour concrete slabs betwen the tracks.
     
     
  #2337  
Old Posted Feb 10, 2011, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
Automated LEGO C-Train setup. 2 trains (one old, one new), 3 Stations (Zoo Station, one old downtown, one new downtown). Check out near the end where you can see the LEDs that change colours on the roof canopy of the new downtown station, just like they do on the real version.

Video Link
That's awesome.
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  #2338  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jeffwhit View Post

Vancouver charges a $5 surcharge to enter or leave the airport zone, making the fare between YVR and anywhere in Vancouver proper cost $8.75, and $10.00 to go to Surrey. Zoned fair pricing is being tossed around, but I would only support it if the base fare was lowed significantly, to $2 or lower.
The $5 airport surcharge ended up only being applied to tickets purchased for trips departing the airport. The price of a trip to the airport is the same as any other two zone trip: $3.75. Originally the plan was going to require a $2.50 add-fare for trips to or from the airport zone. The mechanics of implementing this were daunting, especially when you consider that most transit trips begin on a bus and not in a train station with the ticket vending machines. Once we get our smart cards in a couple of years all bets are off when it comes to fare structures and they may well implement tap on/tap off distance based pricing and eliminate fare zones entirely. In the end Translink and the airport decided to instead automatically add $5 to any ticket puchased at the airport SkyTrain stations' ticket vending machines. It simplified the whole process but is a little bit underhanded too since the machines don't tell you why the fare is so high.

The last round of numbers had 15% of passengers flying in or out of YVR using SkyTrain, which is apparently among the highest percentages in North America and those numbers are about six months old. Plus that ridership was built despite abysmal signage inside the airport and honestly pretty poor frequencies late at night due to the level of service offered during the 'initial service plan' that will thankfully expire this summer. Right now the average wait is twelve minutes with a little as eight during rush hour, but late at night during the last few hours of service one may have to wait up to 20 minutes for a train to depart and that's just unacceptable. Fortunately the train is sitting at the platform for much of that time so you can at least take a seat inside a heated, well lit train instead of standing around on the platform.

The airport has already started to really leverage SkyTrain to change the way it organises space on Sea Island, home to airport. YVR has already moved all employee parking out to the furthest station on Sea Island and since all travel by train on the island is free employees now take a four minute SkyTrain ride to the main terminal as opposed to a fifteen minute-plus meandering shuttle trip from the old employee lots that were twice as close. Next up for the airport is the relocation of the long-term airport parking to the next furtherst airport station and repurposing the original long-term parking lots' valuable land close to the terminal into developable parcels for office, hotel, and commercial uses. Translink is also going to expand the existing Community Shuttle bus route on Sea Island to better service these new parcels of land, the south terminal private airline and air cargo hub, and the large new "north terminal" business hub that is proposed and has already had its main achor, Canada Post, go to tender for an absolutely giant new 30+ acre Metro Vancouver and South Coast central processing and handling facility. Ultimately the airport wants to move employee parking entirely off of Sea Island and build or lease parkades around the Bridgeport Station transit hub and have all their employees take the seven minute train ride from there, and in doing so free up dozens of acres of prime airport development land on Sea Island.

If all goes to plan a fourth station will be built on the airport island and this will connect directly with the proposed next expansion of the international terminal hall which will be dedicated exclusively to US departures. The SkyTrain guideway was brought down to grade for most of the trip on Sea Island and in one place in particular its geometry was dictated by the airport's contingency plan to build a taxiway over the SkyTrain and road corridor to link the north and south runways. The airport needed to ensure that all of its future plans were both facilitated and not encumbered by the Canada Line and that is the biggest reason why they put in $300 million into the project, so that they could have a seat at the table and essentially design their own leg of the system. Effectively the airport's next forty years of evolution are now tied inextricably with SkyTrain and thanks to the network effect any improvements to the SkyTrain network directly benefit the airport by making it even more accessible by rapid transit for its employees and passengers. It's a very exciting time.
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Last edited by SFUVancouver; Feb 11, 2011 at 7:32 AM.
     
     
  #2339  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2011, 8:39 PM
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^^Thanks for the clarification. I just pulled my info off of wikipedia, the last time I was in van the Canada line was still a few weeks away from opening.

YYC could obviously learn a lot from YVR on how to leverage public transit to their benefit.
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  #2340  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2011, 6:52 PM
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Cross-posting in this thread. Also posted in the Calgary Public Transit thread
Quote:
Reservable parking stalls at LRT lots opposed


By Lea Storry, Calgary Herald February 13, 2011 7:12 AM

Some aldermen are criticizing a proposal to make up to half of the parking spots at LRT park-and-ride lots reservable while charging $70 for the service.

The proposal, to be discussed by city council Monday, comes in the wake of the December decision to axe the daily $3 parking fee. The changes are slated to take effect in April.

[...]

Ward 5 Ald. Ray Jones voted to get rid of the daily fee, but said keeping up to 50 per cent of spots for reservations is too high.

"I think we should start with 25 per cent . . . and see how it works," said Jones. "We should at least experiment with it."

[...]

A survey done this past January by the transportation department found 23 per cent of current and former park-and-ride users would be interested in paying for reserved parking spaces with the average willing to cough up $70 a month.

[...]

Will Stach takes the LRT to get to his classes at the University of Calgary. The 20-year-old used to park at the Southland LRT Station, but stopped after the fee was introduced. He added he won't be shelling out 70 bucks for a primo parking spot either.

"It's not really in my budget to do that," said Stach. "I'm used to taking the bus now to the train. It's a habit."

[...]

"People want more transit," noted Pincott. "I think Calgarians are saying, and have been saying for years, if you give us an efficient transit system that works, then I will use it."
Link to the rest of the article

I should note that the headline is a bit misleading I think. Sounds like the aldermen in question aren't opposed to the idea, and are warm to a modified version of the idea with less reserved spots.
     
     
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