Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Geoff Meggs has a video up on his websites saying why he thinks the viaducts should go.

I'm about to watch it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqXRaAdgo44&feature=player_embedded

Hmm, I'm thinking over the next few months we'll see some great video as to why people think the Geoff Meggs should go.

A bunch of people trying to relive yesterday's battles. Of course, had these seem same folks been around at the beginning of the 20th century, you can bet they'd have protested the creation of the CN railyards and their "horrible effect" on the neighbourhood.

A total waster of taxpayers' money.

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Hmm, I'm thinking over the next few months we'll see some great video as to why people think the Geoff Meggs should go.

A bunch of people trying to relive yesterday's battles. Of course, had these seem same folks been around at the beginning of the 20th century, you can bet they'd have protested the creation of the CN railyards and their "horrible effect" on the neighbourhood.

A total waster of taxpayers' money.

meggs is out of his mind. this is crazy talk ....

[jlousa]

I think it's fair to say that Meggs mind is made up, and that the report that they commissioned (with suspect criteria) will not affect his feelings one way or the other.

[dreambrother808]

Doesn't sound so bad.

[IanS]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I think it's fair to say that Meggs mind is made up, and that the report that they commissioned (with suspect criteria) will not affect his feelings one way or the other.

I expect you're right.

Kind of a waste of money, that report. However, hopefully it wont' be an issue after November.

[hazel]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

meggs is out of his mind. this is crazy talk ....

Scary thing is that Meggs is the real power behind Gregor's throne. REALLY scary.

[trofirhen]

Please ... get those latter-day hillbillies Out-Of-Office

[Phil McAvity]

Yeah, let's get rid of those nasty viaducts then eventually we can get rid of all the streets and go back to living a peaceful agrarian lifestyle in happy hippy communes. Sadly, many people have never grown out of the 1960's.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Phil McAvity

Yeah, let's get rid of those nasty viaducts then eventually we can get rid of all the streets and go back to living a peaceful agrarian lifestyle in happy hippy communes. Sadly, many people have never grown out of the 1960's.

Ain't that the truth. Why can't they all go back to the Slocan Valley, or wherever they came from?

[Canadian Mind]

Has anyone emailed him to ask what he feels would be the impacts on the street-level walkability if the viaducts are torn down?

[trofirhen]

I saw a video about Seattle possibly putting Alaskan Way into a long tunnel, freeing up the land over it for residential use, parks, and so forth.

I know Vancouverites are largely tunnel-phobic, but isn't that at least an option to consider? The tunnels leading out of (or into) downtown could connect up with a feeder expressway further east, built over the the main waterfront railway tracks, feeding into the Cassiar / Highway 1 system, or such.

This is not, of course, the ideal solution. But what is? Anybody know? Most of us would love to know !! Just an option, among others, to mull over, anyway.

(I have to add that Meggs' idea of linking the former viaducts to Pacific Blvd and Expo Blvd would create gridlock-scale traffic jams, nearly all day long. Is that what he wants? He probably ever though about it in the first freaking place)

[golog]

Tunnels are fine, it's just they cost prohibitive amounts of money.

Seattle would probably be borrowing money they don't have. There's a project in LA that is further advanced -- basically connecting cross streets above an existing trench freeway. The Boston Big Dig has been completed.

[officedweller]

It'll be interesting to see what the outcome of Seattle's tunnel will be.
It will be a toll tunnel that acts as a downtown bypass - there are no entrances or exits within the downtown core (unlike the Alaskan Way Viaduct).
Vehicles wanting to traverse downtown Seattle can do so toll-free using surface routes - so it'll be interesting to see whether usage will meet projections or whether the toll-free alternative will win the day.

i.e. I think either Sydney or Melbourne has a similar downtown bypass tunnel that has gone into receivership due to poor usage.

[racc]

Originally Posted by officedweller

It'll be interesting to see what the outcome of Seattle's tunnel will be.
It will be a toll tunnel that acts as a downtown bypass - there are no entrances or exits within the downtown core (unlike the Alaskan Way Viaduct).
Vehicles wanting to traverse downtown Seattle can do so toll-free using surface routes - so it'll be interesting to see whether usage will meet projections or whether the toll-free alternative will win the day.

i.e. I think either Sydney or Melbourne has a similar downtown bypass tunnel that has gone into receivership due to poor usage.

In Melbourne, they didn't count on people having GPS and access to real time traffic info. The result is that the tunnel is really only used in peak hours and revenue is way behind projections. I expect the results will be similar in Seattle.

With a peak hour capacity of only around 8,000 vehicles and even if each peak period is two hours, this is only 32,000 vehicles per day. Assuming 2 trips per person, that is almost $200,000 per person who use the tunnel. Sounds like more of a money pit than a tunnel.

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I know Vancouverites are largely tunnel-phobic, but isn't that at least an option to consider? The tunnels leading out of (or into) downtown could connect up with a feeder expressway further east, built over the the main waterfront railway tracks, feeding into the Cassiar / Highway 1 system, or such.

There would be no point in a tunnel unless it could be connected to Highway 1. And that is never going to happen. The ideal solution already existed. It was the viaducts pre-bike lane.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by awvan

There would be no point in a tunnel unless it could be connected to Highway 1. And that is never going to happen. The ideal solution already existed. It was the viaducts pre-bike lane.

Ah yes, the hippie-dippies and their cutesey lttle bike lanes ....

In fact, I was NOT thinkig of a tunnel all the way to Highway 1. That's prohibitively expensive. I was thinking of tunnels out of downtown, under Strathcona, curving north to where the large railway lines are (and always will be), then going east on the surface, or elevated, and connecting with Highway 1 in an interchange around the Cassiar Tunnel.

It would be a big, complex interchange, no doubt, but it's just a way of getting traffic - mostly commuter I imagine, in and out of the CBD via the east side, making as little impact on the city's neighbourhoods as possible.

Anyway, I'm not an engineer, so if these seems impracticable ... it probably is. At least I tried.

[SpikePhanta]

I still think they can sorta make the viaduct whole new street fronts with the development, and have further streetfronts/activities under them.
Like put side walks, trees, basically copy the spectrum towers.


Maybe expand first ave from nanaimo-Clark and make the malkin connector?

And take traffic from Pender and put it on the Viaducts (i.e trucks) and make Pender more community orientated, with LRT and bike lanes, and yes pender is sort of important, its only important for a small part.
(oh and basically switch Duinsmuir bike lane with Pender car/bus traffic)

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

I still think they can sorta make the viaduct whole new street fronts with the development, and have further streetfronts/activities under them.
Like put side walks, trees, basically copy the spectrum towers.


Maybe expand first ave from nanaimo-Clark and make the malkin connector?

And take traffic from Pender and put it on the Viaducts (i.e trucks) and make Pender more community orientated, with LRT and bike lanes, and yes pender is sort of important, its only important for a small part.
(oh and basically switch Duinsmuir bike lane with Pender car/bus traffic)

Good thinking, IMO

[Alex Mackinnon]

There's a couple problems I see with the tunnel idea. The big one being how do you get up the escarpment without a bridge? You'd either have to have a bridge at some point before the escarpment or have the tunnel connect to Dunmuir and Georgia a few blocks after Beatty to compensate for the elevation gain required. Both of these would be hard to pull off without closing down the existing routes for a few years.

Also for the tunnel, the ground is — for the entirety of the distance between downtown and Clarke unless you go under Strathcona. You could install pilings and do a cut and cover trench down Malkin, but CoV has banned that technique now

Tunnel boring machines like usually like solid rock.

If it could fit I would say the best way to connect the viaducts to hwy would be if you could fit 2 lanes down the Grandview cut, but I think the Millennium line might make it a bit too difficult.

[aberdeen5698]

You guys have to realize that there's no way that Vancouver is going to approve a high-speed connection between highway 1 and downtown. It doesn't matter whether Vision stays in power or if the NPA or some other group gets in - Vancouver residents have made it pretty clear that they're against the idea, and I can't imagine a politician who would risk the wrath of voters by trying to push it through.

That being the case, the viaducts are a high-speed link that spans only a few city blocks with standard signal-controlled streets at each end. Removing it isn't going to make all that huge a difference to travel times. At worst it may move the point where the backlog begins, but the real issue is that once you reach the downtown core vehicle movement becomes difficult, period. There's just too much volume trying to get into too small a space, it doesn't really matter much how you get there.

I don't really want to see the viaducts torn down, but it's mostly because they have plenty of life left and it seems like a waste not to get the use out of them. But I find it hard to believe that it would make a night-and-day difference to traffic if they do go.