NFL coming to Toronto

[caltrane74]

We need a new stadium before the NFL comes here.

LA would probably get a team first.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

The comparisons of CFL attendance in Toronto or how the Bills draw, a bad team people from Toronto can drive about 2 hours to see anyway, to how an NFL team would do in Toronto are really stupid. Please stop now.

Its like saying the NHL won't make it in Winnipeg because the Moose can't sell out the MTS Centre for every game.

True. I honestly think a Toronto NFL team would fairly easily sell out every single home game in 75,000-seat stadium for the first 10-15 years of its existence. Even if it stunk.

The problem for the Toronto NFL dreamers is that the only things concrete (in a put-your-money-where-your-mouth-is) on Toronto the NFL has before it are A) the Argos' attendance and B) the Bills in Toronto attendance.

People who run multi-billion-dollar enterprises like the NFL aren't big on leaps of faith. So saying "give us a team and they will come" won't likely cut it with one of the world's fussiest sports leagues.

It might have actually been better for Toronto-in-the-NFL if those Bills games at Rogers Centre had never taken place.

[MrOilers]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

The comparisons of CFL attendance in Toronto or how the Bills draw, a bad team people from Toronto can drive about 2 hours to see anyway, to how an NFL team would do in Toronto are really stupid.

Why?

If anything, the lacklustre support for gridiron football exemplified by Toronto at all levels illustrates that a multibillion dollar football deal in Toronto is a gamble at best.

And really, what would be the big payoff for the NFL if it worked? TV ratings and merchandise sales for the NFL are already good in Canada, despite not having any NFL teams here.

[Highinthesky]

Why? Did you not read my entire post? You are taking an orange that doesn't do well saying that's why Apples won't either.

It is fact that there is no correlation between how the Marlies do in attendance and how the Leafs do so why would you compare CFL attendance to how an NFL team would do?
The only fair comparison is to take the Bills performance. However as I said the Bills have stunk the entire time they have done games in Toronto.
That is ignoring the impact of Skydome as a very poor football stadium. In the 19 years prior to moving to Skydome the Argos averaged over 35,000 a season, in the 22 years since the Argos have averaged 24,000.
Or the fact that if you look at ticket prices the Bills in Toronto is nothing more than cash grab from Toronto NFL fans which is an insult.

It all just adds up to it being a very silly point to be making.

[MrOilers]

I did read your post, but attendance for a farm team or amateur team vs. a professional league is different than attendance between two different professional leagues. I don't think it's silly comparison at all.

[Highinthesky]

Sure the CFL is a professional league but comparing the talent levels and product on the field are very similar to comparing an NHL team to its AHL affiliate or an MLB team to its AAA team.

I wonder if MLB took the failure of the Maple Leafs in the 1960s into consideration when deciding whether to award Toronto an MLB team in the 1970s. I doubt it for the same reasons comparing the CFL to NFL isn't appropriate.

[craner]

But what else does the NFL have to base it's decision on besides Argos attendance and the Bills in Toronto games ?
Not saying it''s an accurate reflection of how an actual Toronto team would draw in the NFL but I don't see what else an outsider has to go by in terms of actual data.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Toronto hater and I would love to see an NFL team in Toronto. They would no doubt become "Canada's Team" much like the Blue Jays and the Raptors. I know they would become the team I would cheer for.

My only concern would be the effect on the Argos and in turn the CFL as I am one of those who enjoy both brands of football.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

Sure the CFL is a professional league but comparing the talent levels and product on the field are very similar to comparing an NHL team to its AHL affiliate or an MLB team to its AAA team.

I wonder if MLB took the failure of the Maple Leafs in the 1960s into consideration when deciding whether to award Toronto an MLB team in the 1970s. I doubt it for the same reasons comparing the CFL to NFL isn't appropriate.

I think you are seriously underestimating the calibre of the CFL, but regardless...

There are many NFL cities in the US that also support local NCAA football teams with attendance of 50,000 or more: Denver, Miami, Minneapolis, Seattle, Denver, etc. to name but a few. And if you bring the NCAA attendance threshold down to the CFL average of 30,000, you would find that the vast majority of NFL cities also support a local NCAA football team quite well thank you very much.

People in these cities don't consider NCAA to be "beneath" them, in spite of the fact that the calibre of play is inferior to both the NFL AND the CFL.

[shreddog]

A few weeks ago, the Globe carried an interesting article that is relevant to the discussion of the NFL in Toronto. You can decide whether it is positive or negative ...

Why L.A. won't get an NFL team any time soon

Why has Los Angeles, the second largest city in the U.S., been without a National Football League franchise since 1994?

It’s economics ... so minimize costs and maximize revenues.

Player salaries are the largest component of an NFL franchise’s costs. Yet franchises have limited room to cut salaries.

...

So NFL franchises cut costs by negotiating sweetheart deals with their host cities.

...

If Minneapolis isn’t prepared to contribute to the cost of repairing the Vikings’ stadium’s collapsed roof, another city will likely offer the Vikings a new home and tax concessions.

...

The NFL, however, is egalitarian. All national revenues, such as sales of television rights, are divided 32 ways. Each NFL franchise receives an equal share.

...

In 2010, three-fifths of the Packer’s income - $157- out of $258-million – came from its 1/32 share of national revenues.

The revenue sharing system means there is little incentive for a team to move from a small to a large market.
...

At the same time, the revenue protection created by equal sharing means that teams are very mobile. That mobility allows franchises to push for taxpayer subsidies, lowering costs.

But the NFL is not concerned with profits, anyways. It is a tax-exempt non-profit organization.

Rest of the story

Not sure how this "squares the circle" with the Ford's comments about no gov't subsidies ... but then again I was confused when they said that after saying the Feds would donate land at Downsview?

[Highinthesky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I think you are seriously underestimating the calibre of the CFL, but regardless...

There are many NFL cities in the US that also support local NCAA football teams with attendance of 50,000 or more: Denver, Miami, Minneapolis, Seattle, Denver, etc. to name but a few. And if you bring the NCAA attendance threshold down to the CFL average of 30,000, you would find that the vast majority of NFL cities also support a local NCAA football team quite well thank you very much.

People in these cities don't consider NCAA to be "beneath" them, in spite of the fact that the calibre of play is inferior to both the NFL AND the CFL.

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

And only a fraction of those players ever play in the NFL. Another small fraction plays in the CFL. The vast majority aren't talented enough to play a professional game at the CFL level...But they still draw massive crowds...Real football fans.

[Highinthesky]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

And only a fraction of those players ever play in the NFL. Another small fraction plays in the CFL. The vast majority aren't talented enough to play a professional game at the CFL level...But they still draw massive crowds...Real football fans.

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?

This is like trying to take the average sale price of AAA office space in Vancouver to develop a listing in Edmonton and then wondering why the property doesn't sell. They are entirely different markets, they are not comparable.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

This whole post is more of the same thing, comparing apples to oranges. Besides hockey the American sports market is superior to the Canadian one in every sense. Ohio and Michigan State Universities get over 100,000 people to their games and Vanier Cup in Canada is lucky to draw 20,000. So why even bother comparing how Americans support their developmental pro leagues, semi-pro leagues, and university sports to Canadians?

I'm not underestimating the CFL. CFL players get paid like and in many cases less than AHL and AAA baseball players. CFL has been used over time and to this day as a stepping stone for many players trying to reach the NFL and to be brutally honest the rest of the players in the CFL just wouldn't make it in the NFL. That is what makes comparing the CFL to the NFL more similar to comparing the Moose to what an NHL team would do in Winnipeg than comparing the CFL to the NFL on par.

So I guess the conclusion is that, when compared to Americans, there are many more Canadians out there who think that the CFL and other sports leagues (read = sports leagues that have no American teams in them) are "beneath" them.

Note that although our focus here has been on Torontonians, these Canadians exist everywhere, and there are lots of people in places like Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia and Cold Lake, Alberta who also think the CFL is "beneath" them.

I always found it interesting how the fact that 20,000 people can show up at a high school football game in Texas doesn't prevent them from enjoying the Dallas Cowboys... One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?

Yeah, ones a football market, the other isn't.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by MrOilers

If anything, the lacklustre support for gridiron football exemplified by Toronto at all levels illustrates that a multibillion dollar football deal in Toronto is a gamble at best.

And really, what would be the big payoff for the NFL if it worked? TV ratings and merchandise sales for the NFL are already good in Canada, despite not having any NFL teams here.

Exactly, Toronto is not a football town. Toronto doesn’t support football and don’t deserve a storied team like the Argonauts.

[Highinthesky]

Originally Posted by craner

But what else does the NFL have to base it's decision on besides Argos attendance and the Bills in Toronto games ?
Not saying it''s an accurate reflection of how an actual Toronto team would draw in the NFL but I don't see what else an outsider has to go by in terms of actual data.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not a Toronto hater and I would love to see an NFL team in Toronto. They would no doubt become "Canada's Team" much like the Blue Jays and the Raptors. I know they would become the team I would cheer for.

My only concern would be the effect on the Argos and in turn the CFL as I am one of those who enjoy both brands of football.

You're right, there is no other football information avaiable on which to base a decision but you did mention two other alternative thats could be used to see how a team might do, the Blue Jays and Raptors. Both being the only teams in a professional league not in the United States and drawing from a fan base of not only the city they play in but an entire country.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

In an entirely different market and culture than Toronto or Canada so how does that have anything to do with support in Toronto?

This is like trying to take the average sale price of AAA office space in Vancouver to develop a listing in Edmonton and then wondering why the property doesn't sell. They are entirely different markets, they are not comparable.

Except that you ARE trying to play in the same league as them. If Canada had its own distinct sports leagues (or most Canadians were content with the CFL as THEIR football league and weren't obsessed with getting gratification they they are ready for the big time from "an entirely different market and culture" as you said so well), then nobody would be posing the question.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Highinthesky

... the Blue Jays and Raptors ... drawing from a fan base of not only the city they play in but an entire country.

Really????

While I haven't polled the entire country, I certainly have not seen rabid fan support for either the Jays or the Raptors outside of Southern Ontario. Certainly nothing that overshadowed other NBA/MBL teams.

I'd be interested in seeing retail and television stats to back that claim up.

[SHOFEAR]

Not to mention it would be political suicide for any federal money to go toward a new stadium.

People across the country could probably understand or quickly forget about the feds dishing out some coin for arenas or CFL stadiums...but a billion dollar NFL stadium...

[Highinthesky]

Originally Posted by Acajack

So I guess the conclusion is that, when compared to Americans, there are many more Canadians out there who think that the CFL and other sports leagues (read = sports leagues that have no American teams in them) are "beneath".

Note that although our focus here has been on Torontonians, these Canadians exist everywhere, and there are lots of people in places like Musquodoboit Harbour, Nova Scotia and Cold Lake, Alberta who also think the CFL is "beneath".

I always found it interesting how the fact that 20,000 people can show up at a high school football game in Texas doesn't prevent them from enjoying the Dallas Cowboys... One doesn't automatically exclude the other.

What is all this beneath talk about? Are you going to seriously try and say that the CFL is on par with the NFL? If you are then there is no point in continuing this discussion because its not going to based on anything substantial.

If you do agree that in terms of fielding talent the NFL wins hands down then you cannot in the next line argue that the CFL should used as a direct comparison to the NFL for support in Toronto and be taken seriously.

And in regards to all this other talk. Canada is not comparable sports market to U.S. so there is no point in saying the Americans support all levels of sports so Canadians do to. No is going to seriously argue that Toronto is not a hockey town yet the Marlies get very poor fan support.