Calgary Public Transit II

[You Need A Thneed]

That lot at the corner of 16th and Centre MUST be kept open for a potential station entrance. If a subway is ever going to go up that way, the presence of open lots like that one along the way will make or break the budget. Some open space to use during construction will make a large difference in the final project cost.

Other than that lot, and maybe a similar lot by Edmonton Trail (in case it works better to build the subway up that route), build mixed use with retail frontage along 16th, it shouldn't be too hard.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

The more I think about it, I don't see why the SW BRT is slated to go Mount Royal. When the new West Calgary bus routes kick in there will be two BRT routes which will access the school.

Just have a transfer station on 14th St. and save SW commuters at least 10mins.

http://www.westlrt.ca/files/CT%20Bus%20Network%20Proposed%20Nov-20-09.pdf

Why NOT go to Mount Royal? It will be the major destination on the SWBRT, with the far SW south of Rockyview being a distant second in ridership.

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I take it we are talking about the various empty lots on the south side of 16th Ave between 4 St NW and 6th St NE? The specific lot that might be useful for a Centre Street Subway would be the SE corner of 16 Ave and Centre St? If that is the case then I would reserve the that lot for a station entrance with some kind of major institutional space on top. Maybe a museum or theatre/opera house. Most of the other lots ought to be sold off for development with one or two held back for affordable housing. Adding a park to one might be an idea but there seems to be a good amount of green space in the vicinity already.

Yes, I do agree that the station entrance should be in some sort of useful building. That corner is a prime location.

[Socguy]

Slate has taken up the debate with a nice little article about the pros and cons of each mode of public transit.

http://www.slate.com/id/2280972/pagenum/all/#p2

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

Why NOT go to Mount Royal? It will be the major destination on the SWBRT, with the far SW south of Rockyview being a distant second in ridership.



Yes, I do agree that the station entrance should be in some sort of useful building. That corner is a prime location.

It might make more sense for the SW to be served by two BRT lines (with possible eventual upgrades to LRT). The first would serve the 14th St corridor, going relatively straight to downtown, and be meant to relieve congestion on the SLRT. The Second would serve activity centres like Mount Royal University, essentially as an upgraded express version of the #20 bus. If headways were short enough, then the transfer between the two at Rockyview Hospital Station would not be a major issue. It might even be better if both shared a busway over the dam until 50 Ave where one would split to continue north and one would split west to hit MRU.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

I take it we are talking about the various empty lots on the south side of 16th Ave between 4 St NW and 6th St NE? The specific lot that might be useful for a Centre Street Subway would be the SE corner of 16 Ave and Centre St? If that is the case then I would reserve the that lot for a station entrance with some kind of major institutional space on top. Maybe a museum or theatre/opera house. Most of the other lots ought to be sold off for development with one or two held back for affordable housing. Adding a park to one might be an idea but there seems to be a good amount of green space in the vicinity already.

Would we need an entire lot for a station entrance? I am picturing a subway to be like Edmonton's downtown, were there would just be a few stair cases coming up onto the sidewalk from the station. We might need to save a bit of a set-back, but the whole lot? I'm not an expert at subway construction, so please let me know if I am wrong.

[MalcolmTucker]

Well, along 16th you would likely want a place for free body transfers from buses, which takes up a lot of room.

[UofC.engineer]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

It might even be better if both shared a busway over the dam until 50 Ave where one would split to continue north and one would split west to hit MRU.

BINGO!!!

My parents said that cars used to drive over the dam, but only one direction at a time with signal lights on each end because there wasn't enough room.

I think the straightest and most direct route to downtown is essential for the SW BRT to be a success. A lane reversal on 14th street could also speed up time.

Mount Royal is a large transit destination, but you need to consider the traveling time for workers in downtown as well.

[Rational Plan3]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Yes it is supposed to be real-time arrival information. There will be displays at LRT and BRT stops, and for all other bus routes it is supposed to be available on smart phone applications.

London's 'countdown' system is currently being upgraded, alongside it's new i Bus initiative.

"London Buses has now fully rolled out its iBus project - a state-of-the-art Automatic Vehicle Location (AVL), radio and an on-bus passenger information display and announcement system - to every bus and garage across London, that's over 8000 buses and 90 garages.

Next stop visual displays and audio announcements on the bus keep you informed every stop of the way so you know where and when to get off. It makes travel easier for everyone."


"Improvements for passengers

More reliable services
Next-stop audio visual, place of interest and final destination announcements. This particularly benefits passengers with disabilities, infrequent travellers or passengers facing language barriers
Route-related service information while on board - drivers can trigger an announcement that keeps passengers informed as soon as a bus goes on diversion from the planned route
iBus makes buses more reliable and information at bus stops more accurate
Improved Countdown predictions at bus stops
Improved response from CentreComm - the 24/7 Emergency Command and Control Centre. In the event of an emergency or accident, the precise location of every bus in the fleet can immediately be shared with the emergency services

Improvements for bus operators

At-a-glance information on the precise location of every bus on a particular route, with the ability to take action to maintain a good service
Detailed journey time data available, allowing bus operators to improve bus routes
Improvements for bus drivers

Improved radio coverage
Drivers don't need to try to identify the precise location of their vehicle to CentreComm as CentreComm will already have that information
Automatic 'low bridge' warnings
Pre-recorded announcements such as 'please move down the bus'"

This will allow countdown travel information to be upgraded.

"Countdown is the electronic information display system that provides real-time bus arrival information for bus passengers throughout London.

The current system has been successful, however it only serves 10 per cent of the network. From 2011, we will be introducing a new, improved Countdown that will show bus arrival predictions for every one of London's 19,000 bus stops.

The new system will provide real-time bus arrival information through a range of channels, including text messages and web. We will also introduce a new generation of Countdown signs at bus shelters."

FEATURES

Text messaging (SMS)

Passengers will be able to text their bus stop code, bus stop name or route to a central telephone number to receive real-time bus arrival times for that stop.

The SMS service will enable visually impaired passengers to use the text-to-speech facility where available in mobile phones to get information.
The text messaging service will cost the standard network rate to send a message, plus a 12p charge to receive the response.

Web
Passengers will be able to get the latest service information using mobile web or their internet at home or at work.
Passengers will be able to search by bus stop name, street name, area and postcode. Those using internet at home or work will also be able to search on a map.

The web service is free*. The web and text messaging services are scheduled to be available in 2011."


This means that passengers that don't have smart phones can still get real time bus updates, via text or free via their smartphone to the web page.

Countdown Signs

"Our improved Countdown signs will provide real-time information to around 2,500 key bus stops in London.

Using the latest technology to ensure easy readability, the signs will comply with disability guidelines on electronic signage.
As well as predicting bus arrival times, they will display service updates, disruption information and network-wide messages.
We are also looking at bus stop-specific audio options to help blind and partially sighted people find their way around the network independently.
The roll out of 2,500 new signs will begin in spring 2011 and will be completed in 2012."

Where will the new signs be located?

New Countdown signs will be installed at stops where they will provide the most benefit to the greatest number of passengers. Factors that will be taken into account include:

How many passengers use the stop
How close the stop is to town centres
Distance to transport interchanges
Distance to key local services
The number of low frequency or night routes serving the stop."

While the new system for Calgary is good, I feel just putting electronic signs at BRT stops displays a lack of ambition, they should look to target their top 10 to 20@ busiest bus stops.

[frinkprof]

Good and thorough article on the C-Train in today's Herald.

Calgary's C-train at 30

Skepticism met people-mover plan

By Jason Markusoff, Calgary Herald January 15, 2011 9:00 AM

Crammed. Feels like a sauna. Winter coats, wool scarves and coffee breath emit more heat.

Newspaper pages rustle loudly. Smartphone buzzes. Can't answer it, or even scratch an elbow, without getting five people to move one step over.

Finally, the doors slide open and the rats spill out into the concrete canyon. Free from the C-Train, and off to another holding cell known as the office cubicle.

Cities with light-rail systems all over North America experience varying degrees of the morning rush, but for the past 30 years, only few know the morning crush like users of Calgary's busy system.

Those who have long boasted that it's the busiest LRT system in the continent overlook the heavier ridership of the Metrorrey system in Monterrey, Mexico. But second ranking is little to be ashamed of in a city notorious for the car's dominance.

[...]

It would roll along the roads, just like the streetcars Calgary had scrapped, rather than the big eastern cities' full-fledged subway systems? When Edmonton's system opened in time for the 1978 Commonwealth Games with stations smartly burrowed underneath its downtown?

But flash forward to the present, when Calgary's 38-station system boasts 268,000 riders on an average weekday and Edmonton's newly expanded 15-stop LRT moves around 74,000 people daily.

Staying above-ground let Cowtown do more by spending less building the initial 13-kilometre Anderson-to-downtown stretch for $175 million, opening in May 1981. By contrast, the 1980s extension of the Edmonton LRT by less than two kilometres and three downtown subway stations cost $160 million.

[...]

New cars finally have air conditioning -- the same new-style cars Edmonton has, Mandryk notes -- and platforms this year will tell riders how many more minutes they have to wait. That might bode for a slower system, but not necessarily a less successful system. North America's No. 1 LRT system in Monterrey runs sleek-looking cars on lines that are fully underground or elevated, not on the road like some lowly streetcar.

And for those wary of that morning crush, stay tuned for longer, four-car trains. In 2014.

Link to rest of article

The C-Train turns 30 on May 25th, 2011.

[frinkprof]

^To accompany the above article, here is a Calgary Herald video of Mayor Nenshi speaking about the future of the C-Train, with emphasis on the north-central line and airport service:

http://www.calgaryherald.com/videos/inde...-Nenshi/4Zx6JxEaSay_I_qnNOGSanHiQRZZtXUT

[artvandelay]

...and the best part of that article - It's Howie freaking Mandel!:
• Video Link

[frinkprof]

Another good and thorough article in today's Herald about the future of the C-Train. I guess they must be doing some sort of series on it.

Six-legged LRT with 45 new stations slated for Calgary

70-km addition in next 30 years to offer airport, southeast links

By Jason Markusoff, Calgary Herald January 16, 2011 7:34 AM

In its first three decades, the C-Train has spread out its light-rail tendrils 46 kilometres.

With three more decades' worth of expansions essentially mapped out, it stands to stretch out more than 70 additional kilometres, becoming a six-legged monster with more than 45 new stations.

And yes, that includes an airport LRT stop.

Most plans are still many years, engineering studies and billions of dollars away.

"As much as we love the C-Train -- and we do -- there are two drawbacks with C-Train: it's very expensive and it's very inflexible, so we have to be really darn sure when we lay those tracks that's exactly the right thing to do," Mayor Naheed Nenshi says.

"And we have to weigh that against other public transit priorities."

[...]

But with the fullest year of West LRT construction ahead, as well as an imminent council decision on how fast the southeast line gets built and a major consultation on where another train route should go, the C-Train's 30th-anniversary year will be a pivotal one in its history. Here's a look at the C-Train now and into the future:

[...]

Until recently, the city deemed the subway line a necessity this decade, a priority before even the southeast LRT.

McKendrick now says the shift to four-car trains will greatly forestall the plan, although a north-central alignment along Nose Creek would also use the 7th Avenue corridor and hasten the subway dig's timeline.

[...]

LRT Advances

Mid-2011 -¦ Digital displays will be erected at C-Train stations alerting riders when the next three trains will arrive;

-¦ Fare machines at stations that allow credit-card use.

2012 - -Smart-card fare payment begins;

-¦ West LRT opens to 69th Street.

2014 -¦ Four-car trains on Tuscany-Somerset line.

Link to rest of the article

[freeweed]

Wow, that's one of the best articles on anything I've seen in the newspaper in years. Thorough is a huge understatement. It's very rare to see this much detail and status updates even on this forum. Thanks for the find!

[Riise]

Originally Posted by Rational Plan3

London's 'countdown' system is currently being upgraded, alongside it's new i Bus initiative.

Thanks for all the info! Currently London buses already say and display the next stop but the new SMS and Web features will be brilliant!

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

Another good and thorough article in today's Herald about the future of the C-Train. I guess they must be doing some sort of series on it.

Link to rest of the article

Public consultation for all 3 possible routes of the NCLRT: Good. Very good.

A stub line or busways in the SE: Bad ideas. Cheaper to save up and build it all.

A spur off the NE line to the Airport rather than off the N line: Not a bad idea.

Making the Stephen Ave Subway less of a priority in favour of 4-car trains: They overestimate the benefits of only adding 4-car trains, especially while extending existing lines. But, it's good to take the time to figure out how to deal with the complex task of putting a subway there anyways.

[MalcolmTucker]

A spur off the NE line to the Airport rather than off the N line: Not a bad idea

When you look at the costs versus benefits, no way the public purse ever pays for it.

Making the Stephen Ave Subway less of a priority in favour of 4-car trains

Until we see how much it actually helps, and since there isn't money for the subway anyways until at least the later half of the decade, no point of pushing the subway. It isn't like any other big project will get done ahead of it.

[freeweed]

Why the continual push for LRT to the airport? It's extremely rare in the world and I have a very VERY hard time believing Calgary of all cities is in dire need of it. What's the predominant thinking? Is this more for employees (understandable) or travelers? Because I have some serious chuckles at the latter being used as justification.

I guess I'm just surprised to see it coming up again and again, after I've visited so many cities that survive perfectly fine without it. Especially when our system would have to be seriously detoured to handle it, let alone the cost-benefit analysis. I can think of a dozen better ways to spend our transit monies.

[frinkprof]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Why the continual push for LRT to the airport? It's extremely rare in the world and I have a very VERY hard time believing Calgary of all cities is in dire need of it. What's the predominant thinking? Is this more for employees (understandable) or travelers? Because I have some serious chuckles at the latter being used as justification.

I guess I'm just surprised to see it coming up again and again, after I've visited so many cities that survive perfectly fine without it. Especially when our system would have to be seriously detoured to handle it, let alone the cost-benefit analysis. I can think of a dozen better ways to spend our transit monies.

Not to pontificate, but people who don't put the depth of thought into transit that a lot of "us" do can picture themselves using airport LRT. It's sexy. The problem is that people don't think a little deeper about the following:

1. That rapid transit lines are made viable by having a critical mass of regular riders (as in twice daily on most working days). While the LRT is packed during Stampede and after Flames games, if that's where all the ridership came from, they wouldn't be viable.

2. While they might ride it to the airport, they don't think that they only go there 5 times annually, and as per the above, that this actually matters.

3. They forget that when they actually go to the airport, they often have luggage which is cumbersome to carry, especially in situations other than residence/hotel->car/cab/shuttle->terminal or the reverse.

4. If they have travelled to cities that have rail service to their airport, they don't recognize the scale of the city or the traffic the airport gets relative to Calgary, or the fact that the cities in question built their airport rail service when the rest of their system was much more developed than Calgary's.

etc.

Basically it's an attractive proposition at first thought. Who doesn't want that option to ride the train to the airport? The reality is that there's limited funding and other priorities.

[freeweed]

I mostly just picture the average flyer in Calgary, who is either a) a business type (plenty of these) or b) vacationer with money to waste. I have a hard time envisioning either worrying about saving $20 on a cab ride, when a) their company is paying the bills or b) the trip costs $1000+ already.

But what you stated adds to my thoughts nicely.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Why the continual push for LRT to the airport? It's extremely rare in the world and I have a very VERY hard time believing Calgary of all cities is in dire need of it. What's the predominant thinking? Is this more for employees (understandable) or travelers? Because I have some serious chuckles at the latter being used as justification.

I guess I'm just surprised to see it coming up again and again, after I've visited so many cities that survive perfectly fine without it. Especially when our system would have to be seriously detoured to handle it, let alone the cost-benefit analysis. I can think of a dozen better ways to spend our transit monies.

Extremely rare is pushing it, unless we're talking about all airports in the world, regardless of whether their city has light rail or not. Here are the mid sized cities in western North America with light rail:

• Vancouver - train to airport
• Seattle - train to airport
• Portland - train to airport
• Minneapolis - train to airport
• Phoenix - people mover to train under construction
• Salt Lake City - train to airport under construction
• Denver - train (EMU) to airport under construction
  
• Edmonton - rural airport
• Sacramento - rural airport; line under construction planned to reach airport eventually
• San Jose - shuttle bus to LRT
• San Diego - shuttle bus to LRT

So that's 7 out of 11 once current construction completes, with half of the remaining having airports a long way from the city. Not so unusual. And, yes, most of these cities are larger than Calgary, but they're not so much larger, especially from the perspective of the level of LRT infrastructure and ridership.

Part of the problem with airport transit is the cost-benefit definition. I've chosen destinations (especially for quick weekends away) because high quality transit at the airport made it easy for me to get downtown. For instance, I went to Seattle last Labour day weekend, and I wouldn't have if there hadn't been the train to the airport. From the transit agency's point of view, I'm just another $5 fare to be weighed against the cost of construction and operation. But from the point of view of the city as a whole (which is the ultimate source of the money for transit), they got an extra tourist spending hundreds of dollars, with the associated tax revenue. Building LRT to the airport brings in people who may have gone to Edmonton or held their conference in Vancouver, or who may have bypassed the city and gone straight to Banff.

I don't think we need LRT to the airport tomorrow, but it should be in the plans. More to the point, our current system of service is laughable. If you can find it in the middle of a parkade, you can choose between two buses; one provides a slow tour past every industrial building between the terminal and Whitehorn, and the other provides occasional direct service to the middle of a parking lot, where you can catch another bus to somewhere you may want to be. Both have the 30 minute headways today's business traveller demands. I think improved service to the airport (along the lines that CT proposed, assuming decent headways and ideally with an improved station and waiting area) will help quiet some of the demands for airport service.