UBC/UEL Updates Discussion

[Millennium2002]

lol good one

I myself don't understand what the problem is. And no one else does either, which only adds to the problem.

Of course, with the media reporting this blowing this out of proportion, I see a whole lotta comments on various websites that are like anti-Chinese or anti-Asian and mention various extreme ways of remedying the situation. Maybe it's typical with every heated topic like this, but I think they're just taking advantage of the situation to spew hatred. That, and on a lesser scale the nonsensical argument raised by the residents, are bigger issues to be concerned about.

Anyway, maybe we can get back to regular scheduled UBC programming. =O

[golog]

I think they're more concerned about property values.

I don't like the language their spokesperson used -- calling the elderly 'walking cemeteries' -- which I thought was pretty rude and self-centred.

If it's just superstition, and they are unique in their belief -- then they should have little trouble offloading their units to someone who sees it as a free discount. I doubt I would get much of a discount if I were making one of them an offer -- even if I carried with me into viewing a fan, blowing scraps of paper with the number 4 written on them.

If it comes down to a short term speculative investment, well that's the danger bound with the reward. Remember the Jameson House pre-sale buyers?

I'm not really outraged. I might think it silly or shameful in some respects, but so long as any formal complaints are handled by the same process open to anyone in a similar position my concern ends there. Maybe if I had barely or never interacted with ethnically Chinese people before, this story might make me scared and angry at these shifty outsiders. So long as the article generates more discussion and engagement, instead of a dogpile or witch hunt, then it's a good thing in the end because it will be ignored up front as people have built up a resistance for the next time.

[zivan56]

I suggest they go back to the village from which they came from if they want people to take them seriously. Their superstitious concerns should not even be listened to...much less give them this much publicity. Such silly beliefs should be kept to themselves if they want to practice them...one of them on tv said ghosts would attack them through the glass windows at night. I can't believe an educated person could even say such a thing.
Reminds me of some people with obvious mental illnesses I have seen around Vancouver.

[Waders]

I can understand the thinking and feeling of the concerned residents, not necessary agree with their approach.
Not sure how immigration policy got into the argument.

Each culture has its own belief about "good" and "bad".
Asian people, especially Chinese, has extremely strong belief about life and death. That's why they don't like to talk about "death" or even "sickness".
You can call the current UEL issue "bad luck", "bad Feng Shui or just "culture superstitions', but development planners need to pay more attention and sensitivity to this type of thing in a multculture society. There is a lot of "taboo" in different cultures.

If you look up the definition of "feng shui" in Wikipedia,

Feng shui is an ancient Chinese system of aesthetics believed to use the laws of both Heaven (astronomy) and Earth (geography) to help one improve life by receiving positive qi.

In layman's terms, I don't think seeing all the sick / dying people would made one feel happy. The long term psychological effect is impact to one's health.

I know this type of objections happened a lot in China, even in Hong Kong. Government usually would listen and either modify, cancel the development plan or change the location.
As Canada society becomes more and more multicultural, this type of argument will be more common.

"Ghost" was mentioned? Do you know that a large porportion of people believe God, ghost, spirit exist? So is that "superstitious", "religion" or what?

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Waders

...You can call the current UEL issue "bad luck", "bad Feng Shui or just "culture superstitions', but development planners need to pay more attention and sensitivity to this type of thing in a multculture society. There is a lot of "taboo" in different cultures...

That is a very dangerous and slippery slope you are arguing for.

Would you feel the same if Fundamentalist Christians (immigrating from Korea for example) were able to successfully block a gay and lesbian community centre beside them, because it disagreed with their beliefs?

What makes it even more offensive it is that it is on university land. A university is supposed to be dedicated to education and science (and yes, I know it has a theological school, but that's a throwback relic).

[Millennium2002]

My concerns about things getting out of hand into general mud-slinging seems to have come true. = (

Please, stop "sending us back to the village"! That's disrespectful, impossible, doesn't solve anything, makes people more angry, and is a relic from a time that should have gone long ago.

(BTW if you're wading into this dispute late, I suggest you read all the posts beforehand for my opinion, as it's not pro-residents, despite the tone of this post.)

whatnext, your post is quite valid... is it possible to accommodate everyone? No. We can only try to accommodate the majority... and that to me doesn't mean a majority of the residents, as it just leads to complaints like these and the too-much-density complaints demonstrated elsewhere. For consistency and representation, I feel that it has to include the entire population.

BTW the immigration issue was brought up because the residents explicitly declared that most of them were "Chinese".

[Waders]

Originally Posted by whatnext

That is a very dangerous and slippery slope you are arguing for.

Would you feel the same if Fundamentalist Christians (immigrating from Korea for example) were able to successfully block a gay and lesbian community centre beside them, because it disagreed with their beliefs?

I have heard in other places, even in US, objection to developments can happen due to all type of "strange" reasons.
Whether a development plan eventually got changed or not is not as important as the willingness for all involved parties to listen, communicate and find way to alleviate concerns raised.

Anyway, time to sleep and stop the "argument". Back to normal discussion about the development itself.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

no offense to anyone but the whole asian thing is bizarre to me they pay extra to live in a building that has an 8 in it, they leave the 4th floor in buildings, they follow these odd traditions - does it really make a difference to their lives?

does living in an 8 address really make em rich?

I don't think it is really that hard to understand. There are plenty of instances where caucasians are superstitious as well.

There is a reason no floor is ever #13. How many people would buy a unit numbered 13? What would be resale value be compared to #12?

A relative offered me a very nice bed to give to my kid. Unfortunately, another relative had died in that bed. I declined for reasons that can only be called superstitious.

Numbers, colors, associations with dead people - such superstitions are pretty common, Asian or not.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

My concerns about things getting out of hand into general mud-slinging seems to have come true. = (

Please, stop "sending us back to the village"! That's disrespectful, impossible, doesn't solve anything, makes people more angry, and is a relic from a time that should have gone long ago.

Such beliefs about people who are living out their final months or days in pain with nobody to help them is extremely disrespectful. How about if you end up in the same situation and have these wackos complaining about you being alive near them?

Anybody unable to cope with "big city" life should go back to the village from which they came, and bring their silly beliefs with them or start respecting other peoples basic human rights. What is next, will they complain about the UBC hospital because sick people visit it?

Believe me, I am being very respectful with my wording, as I would call them a lot worse.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Waders

I have heard in other places, even in US, objection to developments can happen due to all type of "strange" reasons.
Whether a development plan eventually got changed or not is not as important as the willingness for all involved parties to listen, communicate and find way to alleviate concerns raised.

Anyway, time to sleep and stop the "argument". Back to normal discussion about the development itself.

Well, in terms of the development, if given the option of "we're going to build a 2 story building with quiet neighbours beside you", most Vancouver high-rise owners would be jumping at the chance!

Its funny, but I haven't heard of a reluctance of any Chinese buyers to live beside Crofton Manor, Normandy Hospital or any other of "God's waiting rooms" on the West Side!

[golog]

Originally Posted by zivan56

I suggest they go back to the village from which they came from if they want people to take them seriously.

That's just not nice. It's illogical too.

If you want to deport anyone, it should be about something real like chewing with an open mouth making lots of noise into a microphone.

I don't hammer out my drywall every time I scuff it, and I would hope that you value people more than I do my drywall.

[cornholio]

My post before was not anti Asian or anything like that, it was complaining about our immigration policy not being balanced and healthy in the long term. It has and continues to not take in a balanced make up of nationalities and cultures and economic backgrounds. And if that itsnt enough it doesnt control the settlement of the immigrants as they end up in very few areas. This prevents proper integration and creating bonds and loyalty to the country, this is bad, trust me, just like its bad for a corporation or any small business its bad for countries as well and in the long run it will cause serious problems.

60% of the immigrants are economic
- there is a point system that does not favor everyone equally
- BUT the important thing is that a majority of these people skip the point system as they come in as investors. Opening up a small business like a restaurant, or just through one of many loop holes for which all you need is money($250grand to be specific). It is actually extremely difficult to immigrate here through the point system because the economic immigrant quota is taken up by wealthy people from developing and rapidly growing countries, China being the number one source, and Asia as a whole taking up more than 50% of all immigrants. Keep in mind that Quebec has their own policies and favors people from either French speaking countries or former French speaking countries, most non Asian immigrants actually end up in Quebec, where they a required to reside until they can apply for citizenship(people who want to come in through the point system often end up in Quebec as there is more room left in their quota) .

30% are family, trust me when I say that "whose" family gets sponsored in is not balanced as a sponsorship looks at how much wealth and money the sponsor has.

10% are refuges.

Here are the number one two and three source countries of immigrants, and just for kicks ill throw in number 4. These are the same every year for a while now.

2009

China 29,049 - Philippines 27,277 - India 26,122 - USA - 9,723
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2009/permanent/10.asp
And these groups dont spread out equally, slowly inching towards a critical mass where integration will not only stop but reverse. I can tell you not only do I not want that, I know no one really wants that even if their afraid to say it, and its not a good thing, its like a volcano ready to explode under the right conditions.


Anyways, this a bit of topic. Infact I think a thread about immigration policies would be nice in the general section. It would be interesting and beneficial I think.

[golog]

Originally Posted by zivan56

Anybody unable to cope with "big city" life should go back to the village from which they came, and bring their silly beliefs with them or start respecting other peoples basic human rights. What is next, will they complain about the UBC hospital because sick people visit it?

If I may try and read too much into your post, you don't seem to be seeking to change an opinion, influence, or even convince anyone. You're just throwing down an ultimatum, and gambling for submission for fear of an unruly mob.

People are people, if you think any one group is too different then it's because your group and their groups haven't spent enough time around each other.

Take the race out of it, and how is this different than any other resident/NIMBY vs developer article?

and if this incident is truly rooted in a cultural belief, then it's a great thing we're hearing about it in the news. The earlier the better, the smaller the conflict the better. Presuming these beliefs are seen as a problem by normal people, then we have identified a specific group to educate and engage about the norm here with a relevant specific topic to discuss.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

Canada does immigration better than anywhere else in the world. These are relatively minor issues in the entire scheme of things. The problem will be solved, people will settle down, and everyone will go back to living their regular lives. Blowing this out of proportion only intensifies an ethnic debate that we seriously do not need to be having.

All Canadians, except for Aboriginal peoples, are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Don't forget that.

I know you are a young guy and what you have said has been religiously repeated to you for probably 90% of your life, but you will get older, and wiser, and your opinions and views will change. You obviously still have a utopian view of the world, this will change, even if you think it wont, everyone thinks that, and then next thing you know your views will be very very different.

[golog]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Anyways, this a bit of topic. Infact I think a thread about immigration policies would be nice in the general section. It would be interesting and beneficial I think.

I think there is a lot to say, and explore. I think there is huge room to improve the immigration system and how it integrates with domestic institutions, from everyone's perspective. It's not quick. It's not efficient. It's not effective. It's not sustainable. It's just what we use because it's what we had.

The communities that have thrived in the long run have been the ones that are open and meritocracies, places about what you do and not who you are. You may not know why, when, or how star players become available but you'd be a fool to turn them away. Liberalizing to a points system was a good first step, if someone wants to contribute then let them on the team.

We've grown smug and complacent. Now the bar for economic class of immigrant is so low, and the value of education + healthcare + CPP + 2nd passport, that immigration 'consulting' is a huge business. Never mind the failure inform potential immigrants of what to expect. Forget about even addressing getting the supply of professionals in line with demand when there is disparity within the country, lobbying by some employers for a source of cheap labour, and licensing bodies protecting their members from competition. Then there is the issue of how quickly how many people can integrate in general, to become members of a cohesive community and successful in their endeavours -- all within a complex time variant system that is dependent on exogenous factors like what other countries do to their own immigration and refugee systems.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by paradigm4

All Canadians, except for Aboriginal peoples, are immigrants or descendants of immigrants. Don't forget that.

By that measure, aboriginals are immigrants too - only the immigration they descended from is further back in time.

Aboriginal people didn't grow out of the ground underneath our feet. They too came from somewhere else.

[jlousa]

Okay guys enough, back onto topic and no immigration is not the topic on hand.

[nova9]

I wholeheartedly despise the residents opposing the hospice.

That being said, locals/westerners have been throwing their own weight around in terms of advocacy groups for decades with regards to NIMBYism and we rarely see the type of arguments you're seeing on comment boards.

And every time I read someone telling these people to go back to the village, I firstly am more incline to support them just to spite zivan and his ilk, and secondly would like to remind them that most of these types of Chinese immigrants (the ones that can afford condos that you locals couldn't) are coming from cities ranging in the 10millions. So zivan, get some education please.

[dreambrother808]

Edit: didn't see the no posting bit

[officedweller]

One of the news reports said that the hospice was originally supposed to be located next to Place Vanier Residence - but the students complained that it would prevent them for partying late into the night - so UBC moved it to the current proposed location.