London Roads

[manny_santos]

Having gone to Masonville Place for some Boxing Day deals I decided to check out Wonderland Road north of Gainsborough.

I must say I am very impressed with the job done. The widening is complete, save for permanent traffic signals and a second coat of asphalt in the spring. Even with the high amount of traffic today it moved very well. Now I've got a fine alternative to going through Hyde Park to get to Masonville.

[MolsonExport]

^Except that Hyde park road needs the expansion even more than north Wonderland ever did, given the never-ending residential development (wanna have a fun game of chicken? Try taking a left-hand turn off of coronation onto hyde park southbound during daytime hours) and the dumbcentre/Stuporstore at each end of Hyde.

[haljackey]

Here's a major proposal: a rapid transit plan for London!


Source: http://www.london.ca/Transportation_Planning/pdfs/SmartMoves_NovNewsletter_Final.pdf

By rapid transit, I really hope they mean LRT. BRT isn't technically classified as rapid transit even though it has the words in it's name.


Also if you look closely at the photo, you can see two additional ramps added to the Commissioners/Highbury interchange and a marking at the Hamilton/VMP intersection.
-The Bradley/VMP junction is cut off but I would assume it would be marked too. The Bradley extension is also drawn.

[MolsonExport]

Interesting. Basically what I have advocated since moving to London.

[Snark]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Here's a major proposal: a rapid transit plan for London!
By rapid transit, I really hope they mean LRT. BRT isn't technically classified as rapid transit even though it has the words in it's name.

If some of the concepts being studied for the new TMP make it to the final report, all here will be very pleasantly surprised.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Snark

If some of the concepts being studied for the new TMP make it to the final report, all here will be very pleasantly surprised.

Indeed.

Here's some more good news. The Wonderland Road/Highway 401 interchange has been finalized.


Source: http://www.london.ca/Transportation/PDFs/FinalWonderlandRdSInterchangeESRAddendum2.pdf

That picture shows Wonderland Road with 4 lanes and Highway 401 with 8. I'm sure initial construction would see Wonderland still being 2 lanes (the Highway 402 overpass can only accommodate 2 lanes) and Highway 401 being 4 or 6 lanes.

Guess it all depends on when it's built. Although the plan has been finalized, the project is unfunded at this point and there's no construction date set.

Still, it's good news. I hate using the Highway 4 cloverleaf!

[manny_santos]

Interesting. What I'm curious about is whether Wonderland Road will be fully extended to St. Thomas. As it stands now it ends at Ron McNeil Line just short of Highway 3 (St. Thomas Bypass). Theoretically it could be extended to flow directly onto the bypass.

[Kokkei Mizu]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

Interesting. What I'm curious about is whether Wonderland Road will be fully extended to St. Thomas. As it stands now it ends at Ron McNeil Line just short of Highway 3 (St. Thomas Bypass). Theoretically it could be extended to flow directly onto the bypass.

I've wondered the same thing. I imagine if anything happens, it will probably just be realigned so Ron McNeil ends on Wonderland and Wonderland Rd. continues to Highway 3, fitting into the current four way intersection with Ford Line.

[MrSlippery519]

First post here...lived in London my entire life (30 years).

I would love to see a rapid transit system like the one pictured above, one would hope the idea is a LRT.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

First post here...lived in London my entire life (30 years).

I would love to see a rapid transit system like the one pictured above, one would hope the idea is a LRT.

I hope it's LRT too. Welcome to the forum MrSlippery!

[GreatTallNorth2]

There is no chance that is LRT. If it was, we would see the SmartMoves people and London Transit pushing LRT. If you have spent anytime talking to these people or browsing their sites, you will know they are resisting LRT and pushing for half ass BRT. I wish it was LRT because that would be amazing for London. Plus, with Joe Fontana's "no tax" agenda and the council he has, I will surprised if we see any investment in transit in the foreseeable future.

[MrSlippery519]

Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2

There is no chance that is LRT. If it was, we would see the SmartMoves people and London Transit pushing LRT. If you have spent anytime talking to these people or browsing their sites, you will know they are resisting LRT and pushing for half ass BRT. I wish it was LRT because that would be amazing for London. Plus, with Joe Fontana's "no tax" agenda and the council he has, I will surprised if we see any investment in transit in the foreseeable future.

I would like to think there are many people pushing for this to be a LRT. Truthfully a BRT would do little to help the real issue and just would not make sense in what they are trying to accomplish.

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by MrSlippery519

I would like to think there are many people pushing for this to be a LRT. Truthfully a BRT would do little to help the real issue and just would not make sense in what they are trying to accomplish.

We would like to think many people are pushing for LRT too. The problem is the city (most notably the Smartmoves staff, developers of a proposed 2030 transportation master plan) seem to brush off ideas for LRT as it isn't practical for a city like London. They state London doesn't have the population and/or density to support a LRT system and its LTC ridership numbers need to improve first.

A lot of people then cry wolf and compare London's lack of vision for LRT with K-W. That project was not only planned but has been approved with it's actual construction being a good possibility.

Thing is you have to compare the transportation geography of these cities to get a decent explanation why K-W is getting LRT and London hasn't even planned for it. While the cities are similar in population size (K-W combined), London has a grid-like road system with many arteries for traffic and buses to use. K-W has one central artery (King Street) which is heavily used as a bus route and there is enough ridership on this corridor to warrant LRT.

You can also compare the geography of these cities when it came to highway planning back in the 1950's-60's. Again, K-W has one critical coordinator that needed a bypass (King Street Bypass / Highway 8) which then allowed the Conestoga Parkway proposal to gain political support. In London we have many arteries and any freeway building would not be as justified and would consume a lot of developed and ecologically-sensitive land.

I guess we're just too different. Despite this, I am hopeful London will develop it's own plans for LRT in the near future. The new transpiration master plan being developed is heavily focused on alternative transportation (transit) and failing to at least include some conceptual plans for LRT is ludicrous in my opinion.

[Wharn]

Haljackey, I like the premise of your rapid transit plan, but how do you plan to make it truly "rapid" through the downtown core? Assuming it is a surface route, you would have to lose a lane in each direction along Richmond and convert Dundas into a transit mall until Adelaide. It would be very hard convincing the taxpayers of an automobile-dependent city that this is a good use of money.

[haljackey]

For the record, that isn't my rapid transit proposal. Check the link right below the image. It is from the City of London.

I would direct your questions to the city if you want an answer. If it is LRT and there isn't room in the right of way of the corridors, then I would assume a lane would be either taken out or would act like a streetcar line (road and train).

Originally Posted by haljackey

A lot of people then cry wolf and compare London's lack of vision for LRT with K-W. That project was not only planned but has been approved with it's actual construction being a good possibility.

Thing is you have to compare the transportation geography of these cities to get a decent explanation why K-W is getting LRT and London hasn't even planned for it. While the cities are similar in population size (K-W combined), London has a grid-like road system with many arteries for traffic and buses to use. K-W has one central artery (King Street) which is heavily used as a bus route and there is enough ridership on this corridor to warrant LRT.

The only reason the LRT would even have a shot at being viable in K-W is because of the multitude of trip generators along the entire corridor. If the focus of the LRT was just to bring people into downtown Kitchener, that kind of infrastructure would be absolutely excessive. It is the sum of the parts that makes it whole. Also, the fact that our population projections are more aggressive makes the province more willing to invest here.

London has one major advantage over K-W and that is that it has a noticably larger, single core. But the problem with that kind of monocentric form is that ridership is coming evenly from all angles. The other trip generators are scattered in all directions, and you can't build mass transit corridors everywhere.

Does London have any limited stop, express bus routes? I think that would be an extremely practical and cost effective solution for the interim. They should follow the routes that are posted above, except that the northern line needs to have a stop at UWO. That's absolutely crucial, even if it means going a little out of the way.

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by haljackey

For the record, that isn't my rapid transit proposal. Check the link right below the image. It is from the City of London.

My apologies, I failed to notice the link. I also failed to notice any hints of a ring road in any of the city's transportation master plans, aside from the thin proposals to turn the VMP into a limited-access expressway. Why does city council "fight" to retain manufacturing jobs but at the same time fight construction of infrastructure many of these businesses require to compete?

[haljackey]

Originally Posted by Cambridgite

Does London have any limited stop, express bus routes? I think that would be an extremely practical and cost effective solution for the interim. They should follow the routes that are posted above, except that the northern line needs to have a stop at UWO. That's absolutely crucial, even if it means going a little out of the way.

I only recall seeing 1 express bus the entire time I have lived in this city (my whole life). During my first year at Western (2007-2008) there was an express bus from the university to downtown. Never saw that bus again in the years that followed.

Having an express bus from Western and Fanshawe to the core would be great. The thing is with no additional funding going to London Transit, and the fact that full time students at both institutions get bus passes included in their tuition, it isn't economically feasible to have these express routes.

If the CP rail line was ever removed or rerouted, I could see that corridor converted to a busway or possibly even future LRT. Having a route exclusively for transit would vastly improve the efficiency and practicalness of the system.

Originally Posted by Wharn

My apologies, I failed to notice the link. I also failed to notice any hints of a ring road in any of the city's transportation master plans, aside from the thin proposals to turn the VMP into a limited-access expressway.

Yeah there were a lot of hints in that post lol. No biggie.

Currently the VMP is a limited-access (at-grade) expressway, even though minor roads still connect with the road. Limited-access means that no properties and businesses front onto or connect with the road, and that's why even though it's called a "parkway" it's classified as an "expressway".

By removing the more minor intersections (Tartan Drive and River Road for example) and replacing the major intersections with interchanges, the VMP could become a freeway if it is built to proper standards.

Perhaps by the end of this decade the VMP could be a freeway to Gore Road. The city has already finished plans up to this point indicating a parclo (folded diamond) interchange with Bradley Avenue similar Bradley's setup with Highbury Avenue. The Ontario Ministry of Transportation recommends a Parclo A-4 interchange with Hamilton Road, but a diamond interchange has also been proposed. Finally a overpass with River Road is planned. This would make the VMP's first intersection Gore Road.

The proposed freeway on the west side is a pipe dream to say the least. It's like someone just drew a line ignoring how it would connect with the 402/401 (we don't even know if it will hook up with the 401) or how it would navigate developed and ecologically sensitive land in the west.

The freeway in the north will probably never happen. The only possible way this one would get built is if London annexes Arva and other land to the north and there's magically enough money and demand to warrant it's construction.

Why does city council "fight" to retain manufacturing jobs but at the same time fight construction of infrastructure many of these businesses require to compete?

You got me. Industry likes to build near freeways because it's simply easier to move product. Having trucks use surface streets is inefficient and adds a lot of congestion to the roads. Just look at Highbury for an example.

Industry is attracted with good infrastructure, particularly freeways. So why then are the 401 and 402 corridors not zoned for industrial development and the VMP not yet built to freeway standards? Our mayor's #1 priority is to add jobs yet they are overlooking a critical aspect. Politics isn't perfect I guess.

The London Economic Development Corporation is been pressuring the city to scrap it's urban growth boundary or at least make an exception for the 401 and 402 corridors. I'm all for development here as well as it makes London look a bit bigger to motorists passing by, potentially positively affecting our city's reputation.

Originally Posted by haljackey

Having an express bus from Western and Fanshawe to the core would be great. The thing is with no additional funding going to London Transit, and the fact that full time students at both institutions get bus passes included in their tuition, it isn't economically feasible to have these express routes.

I'd hate to crush your spirits over there, but if something as simple as an "iXpress" type system isn't feasible in London, then you can kiss any ideas of LRT or BRT goodbye.

Express busses should be just for the universities and downtown. They should connect a multitude of major terminals together as well.

[Simpseatles]

Originally Posted by haljackey

Here's a major proposal: a rapid transit plan for London!


Source: http://www.london.ca/Transportation_Planning/pdfs/SmartMoves_NovNewsletter_Final.pdf

By rapid transit, I really hope they mean LRT. BRT isn't technically classified as rapid transit even though it has the words in it's name.


.

Cool!

To be honest though, I find it really hard to imagine that we will get a light rail system anytime soon. (within the next 30 years)

As others mentioned , I think that London isn't foreward thinking enough, or has aggresive growth like the kind occuring eastbound down the 401.
Not saying that's a good thing but that's just the way it is.

I'd be happy enough if we got a Bus Rapid Transit corridor in those places, and a downtown bus terminal.


As for the Wonderland 401 interchange, I'm excited. Perhaps this could help to bring an industrial area around the 401/402. I envision a new road branching off of White Oak, and going parallel along the 401 to Wonderland for industrial use. This will also make Wonderland more loke a "Western gateway" to the city off the 401, since highway 4 goes through Lambeth, and if you go straight turns into Col. Talbot.