DENVER | Transportation Thread

[SnyderBock]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Here's the list of unfunded segments, according to the pdf:

CORRIDOR			COST
Central	extension		$55m
North to 72nd Ave		$245m

I'd rank them in this order of importance:

1. The North corridor is at the top since all the others have service on them already. This is the only corridor where the possibility exists for really screwing over the locals by not giving them anything. That would not be advisable.

2. The Central corridor is important from a system connectivity perspective, if nothing else...

...Coincidentally, you can do my first two priorities for almost exactly the amount RTD has available, so I'd say do that. Use your $300 million to build the first segment of the North corridor and to finish the Central. Since there's not enough money available to build both North and Boulder, that makes the decision to pick Central over Boulder as the #2 priority easier.

That does add up to $300 million. This is the best use the of $300 million of available budget left remaining to be allocated. RTD did already purchase from Union Pacific for $118 million, the entire ROW needed for the North Corridor EMU line. Add to that the investments made in this corridor in the form of studies and preliminary engineering work and RTD has probably already invested a solid $125 million into the North Corridor EMU project.

Add to this the $245 million needed to construct this line to 72nd Street and it's not a bad start. That would bring total investment up to $370 million on this corridor and result in a functioning stater line with several stations.

The remaining $55 million in unallocated funds will be just the right amount to do the short Central Corridor extension. This line might seem trivial, but it will provide essential and very important transfer options, which will have capacity issues and ridership impacts, if not constructed.

[Pizzuti]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

I'm with the politically viable choice. While Union Station could use $300 million to get some additional pretty enhancements, the priority is still the unfunded corridors. Getting the coverage is far more important than a pretty hub and I have a lot of hope that Denver will foot the bill to enhance the station in the mid-term.

The annual operating budget for the City and County of Denver is a little less than $900 million. So for the city to put $300m in to improving Union Station would be like the U.S. government putting about $1 trillion - or the cost of the whole 2009 stimulus package - into a spaceport in Washington DC or something. Not that you were suggesting that amount of funding but that's just to give you a sense of scale and the feasibility of the city contributing significantly to this project.

(It's also of note that the total budget of Denver Public Schools is over $700 million, and I'm not sure how much of that, if any, overlaps with the city/county budget. So basically DPS alone is nearly as large of an organization as the City of Denver.)

I would guess that the total amount of money the city actually has to throw into a single location such as the Union Station hub is probably more like $5 million a year, tops, and we know that on a project of this scale that's a very small impact. The city won't have much discretionary spending to do for a few years because of the recession, and it has to spread that spending around all neighborhoods out of fairness, not to mention other locations Downtown.

I'm a big advocate of local governments pitching in to improving the transit system but when I recently found out how little money most of them actually have, it made more sense why they don't do it. I was expecting Denver's city budget to be closer to $3 or 4 billion and was pretty surprised to find out it was less than $1 billion. The State of Colorado has revenues about $18 billion a year.

Out of curiosity I looked up the annual budget for the City of Westminster, which was a little under $94 million; half of what you'd expect in revenues per person compared to Denver since Westminster has 1/5 the population of Denver. I'm guessing that's because the suburbs split state/county government while Denver keeps those together, but Denver does also have more economic activity per capita as the regional hub and people who live in the suburbs still use Denver services when they work there.

[The Dirt]

Originally Posted by SnyderBock

That does add up to $300 million. This is the best use the of $300 million of available budget left remaining to be allocated. RTD did already purchase from Union Pacific for $118 million, the entire ROW needed for the North Corridor EMU line. Add to that the investments made in this corridor in the form of studies and preliminary engineering work and RTD has probably already invested a solid $125 million into the North Corridor EMU project.

Add to this the $245 million needed to construct this line to 72nd Street and it's not a bad start. That would bring total investment up to $370 million on this corridor and result in a functioning stater line with several stations.

The remaining $55 million in unallocated funds will be just the right amount to do the short Central Corridor extension. This line might seem trivial, but it will provide essential and very important transfer options, which will have capacity issues and ridership impacts, if not constructed.

I think that it wouldn't benefit RTD politically to put any funds into the central corridor at this point. Unfortunately, RTD has to pander to the suburbs, as these are are the voters that are likely to close their wallets if they don't see an immediate return on their tax investment. The remaining $55 million should go into extending the north line as far north as possible. 72nd is just not geographically inspiring. I think this only adds 2 stops after the north line splits from the east line. This doesn't serve Thornton, which is the most significant north metro suburb the RTD needs to kiss up to.

[taylor23]

Those are good arguments for doing the North line with the funds. All things being equal I would love to see that line getting the extra money but their environmental study is not complete witch makes me think they would be one of the furthest away from braking ground. A lot has to fall into place with Union Station and the maintenance facility before you would cold run any service. I know those are under way but it still relies on more happening then simply extending one of the light rail lines.

It is fun to speculate but at the end of the day I bet they will spread that money around on all the lines.

[SnyderBock]

Here is a major Colfax Streetcar development! When it lost out in TIGERII funds, it looked bad, but the FTA had different plans for this project all along ;-) It is said that if built for the entire length, this could have the highest daily weekday ridership of any single streetcar line in the country. Click here to see the Colfax feasibility Study.

Denver gets $2M from feds to study Colfax streetcars
Denver Business Journal
Date: Wednesday, December 22, 2010, 9:17am MST


Denver has been awarded a $2 million federal grant to study the possibility of adding streetcar service along East Colfax Avenue. The grant is from the Federal Transit Administration, a unit of the U.S. Department of Transportation.

"This project will look at East Colfax Avenue and parallel streets between downtown Denver and the Anschutz/Fitzsimons medical campus in Aurora," FTA said. "This congested corridor links economically diverse neighborhoods, downtown Denver, the state capitol and a large medical campus. The need for this project centers on high bus ridership and crowding."



Read more: Denver gets $2M from feds to study Colfax streetcars | Denver Business Journal

[The Dirt]

I guess that this is a step in the right direction, but enough with the damn studies. It feels like every facet of government is to study, overstudy, and then study again because the first study is too old. There's nothing wrong with studies per-se, they are just way overused.

[Launch 12]

Getting back to the Fastrack corridor prioritization, my preference for completed corridors would be the north and northwest rail to have a more comprehensive geographical network, but I know based on funding, completion of those two in the next few years is not realistic without a major tax increase or grant.

If I had to guess what the RTD board will vote on early next year, I would bet that they cannot ignore that the north metro area has seen very little Fastrack investment compared to the east, south, and west where lines are up and running or being built. I think it is also important to see if there is a possibility of completing a corridor with the $305 M funds. Therefore, my guess is that they will vote to complete the BRT to Boulder. The route could be completed by 2014/2015 with help from some grants already in place and it would complete one connection in the north - and a critical one to Boulder as US36 has bad traffic (not to mention the highway needs improvements) and is a future job corridor. Not as exciting as rail, but something.

Also they cold have remaining funds to work on other corridors. Given the congestion along I-225 and whether they say it or not, the significantly lower support level for Fastracks in Adams County by voters and some politicians (i.e., Northglenn), my guess is that the remaining funds would go towards extending the light rail along I-225 potentially to Aurora Town Center. There seems to be a lot of support for work in that area.

That's my guess...any other guesses?

[Brainpathology]

Checked out some apartment buildings today around downtown. I was absolutely shocked amazed and nearly fainted when the sales lady at the Manhattan pushed "pretty much your very own light rail stop at the bottom of the new bridge there" as a selling point to their units.

No one in eleventy billion years would have predicted that spreading everything as far away from the actual station would benefit E/W like this...

Except maybe everyone, including me about 4 hours after they awarded the project to them.

Anyway for the money, amenities and proximity to stuff anything in Riverfront is still way overpriced. Commons park west was nice, Solera was AWESOME... but maybe a tad out of the way (by 1 or 2 blocks maybe) - still on the top of my list though.

[RyanD]

CPV is stupid expensive... They may not be AS nice but check out some of the sublets in Brooks, they'd surprise you. Also 1600 Glenarm was really nice when I toured it. Just depends where in downtown you want to be I guess..

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Checked out some apartment buildings today around downtown. I was absolutely shocked amazed and nearly fainted when the sales lady at the Manhattan pushed "pretty much your very own light rail stop at the bottom of the new bridge there" as a selling point to their units.

No one in eleventy billion years would have predicted that spreading everything as far away from the actual station would benefit E/W like this...

Except maybe everyone, including me about 4 hours after they awarded the project to them.

Yep, pretty obvious, except that the Manhattan is owned by Greystar and not E/W. Pretty crafty on E/W's part, using proxy companies to hide their obvious get-rich scheme.

It'll be absolutely diabolical when they use Nichols to get another 600 units built between Union Station and the LRT station.

You know, since the LRT station is two blocks away from Union Station, what are the chances of it eventually becoming its own station? Enclose it, dress it up a little bit, and viola! A new station. Hell, we could even sell the naming rights.

[EngiNerd]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Checked out some apartment buildings today around downtown. I was absolutely shocked amazed and nearly fainted when the sales lady at the Manhattan pushed "pretty much your very own light rail stop at the bottom of the new bridge there" as a selling point to their units.

No one in eleventy billion years would have predicted that spreading everything as far away from the actual station would benefit E/W like this...

Except maybe everyone, including me about 4 hours after they awarded the project to them.

Anyway for the money, amenities and proximity to stuff anything in Riverfront is still way overpriced. Commons park west was nice, Solera was AWESOME... but maybe a tad out of the way (by 1 or 2 blocks maybe) - still on the top of my list though.

Commons Park West is nice, but heard lots of complaints about their management from people I know who used to live there.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Yep, pretty obvious, except that the Manhattan is owned by Greystar and not E/W. Pretty crafty on E/W's part, using proxy companies to hide their obvious get-rich scheme.

It'll be absolutely diabolical when they use Nichols to get another 600 units built between Union Station and the LRT station.

You know, since the LRT station is two blocks away from Union Station, what are the chances of it eventually becoming its own station? Enclose it, dress it up a little bit, and viola! A new station. Hell, we could even sell the naming rights.

Damn, I think we need a new [sarcasm] emoticon!

How about... ? Hahahaha

Aaron (Glowrock)

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Yep, pretty obvious, except that the Manhattan is owned by Greystar and not E/W. Pretty crafty on E/W's part, using proxy companies to hide their obvious get-rich scheme.

It'll be absolutely diabolical when they use Nichols to get another 600 units built between Union Station and the LRT station.

You know, since the LRT station is two blocks away from Union Station, what are the chances of it eventually becoming its own station? Enclose it, dress it up a little bit, and viola! A new station. Hell, we could even sell the naming rights.

HAHA... odd that I had to go through the E/W management office to get referred there... oh well. I'm sure you're right and E/W isn't getting any advantages at all from getting to put the station next door.

But yeah.. my suspicions about this whole deal DO color my impressions of things there.



...
1600 was a little bit expensive compared. I hadn't talked to anyone who lived in Commons Park... that would be too bad if I hear the same things. How long ago did your friends live there? Also looking at books units but it's way too early.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

HAHA... odd that I had to go through the E/W management office to get referred there... oh well. I'm sure you're right and E/W isn't getting any advantages at all from getting to put the station next door.

But yeah.. my suspicions about this whole deal DO color my impressions of things there.

Gio, it's a vast conspiracy by "them" and you having to go through E/W was an elaborate ruse set up by "them" to continue your misdirection. You must lift the blindfold to see the truth.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Gio, it's a vast conspiracy by "them" and you having to go through E/W was an elaborate ruse set up by "them" to continue your misdirection. You must lift the blindfold to see the truth.

It's not vast, and it's not a conspiracy; if I was running E/W or whatever we have to call them I wouldn't have even considered for a half second putting everything as close in as possible. The fault and the mistake, which wasn't a conspiracy at all, was letting them be involved at all.

[Cirrus]

The fault and the mistake was letting them be involved at all.

Any company would do its best to get maximum return. The fault and mistake was not asking for enough money in the FasTracks referendum to actually follow the plan everyone agreed upon.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Any company would do its best to get maximum return. The fault and mistake was not asking for enough money in the FasTracks referendum to actually follow the plan everyone agreed upon.

That I can agree with easily!

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Cirrus

Any company would do its best to get maximum return. The fault and mistake was not asking for enough money in the FasTracks referendum to actually follow the plan everyone agreed upon.

Too true. Too very true.

I sometimes wonder just how f**ked we would have been if USP's proposal had been chosen. Given how much more expensive it was and how much its financing depended on the real estate development it's likely that nothing we be under construction at this time and the whole project would be mired in gridlock and litigation as all of the financing fell through.

We'll just end up having to fix the current shortcomings of the plan in about twenty years, but at least we'll have something to fix.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Too true. Too very true.

I sometimes wonder just how f**ked we would have been if USP's proposal had been chosen. Given how much more expensive it was and how much its financing depended on the real estate development it's likely that nothing we be under construction at this time and the whole project would be mired in gridlock and litigation as all of the financing fell through.

We'll just end up having to fix the current shortcomings of the plan in about twenty years, but at least we'll have something to fix.

I do too..(wonder etc.. I mean) but didn't we talk about things Americans get to do like demand more more more and never be happy with what good they have... I'm American so I get to blame whoever is in charge for things I don't like no matter how faultless they are.

I'm not so devoid of insight that I'm not 100% certain that I'd be saying we should have picked E/W because they know the area if the other plan had been chosen and was looking bad.

I think I've said it before.. this place is cathartic as much as a learning experience. I still brag about Denver to anyone who will listen - sincerely.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

but didn't we talk about things Americans get to do like demand more more more and never be happy with what good they have... I'm American so I get to blame whoever is in charge for things I don't like no matter how faultless they are.

I don't think it's just that Americans demand more and more and are never happy. That is true. But more important is that we pathologically demand more but reject paying for more (or reject paying for more today, that is).

The only reason we're not getting what we wanted out of Union Station is because we went with a lesser public-private partnership. The reason we'd be in over our heads with the other public-private partnership is that they depended too much on the development bit, which has crashed. But why did we go with the public-private partnership model to being with? Because we want something for nothing, plain and simple.

At the end of the day - everything gets paid for, and somebody makes some money out of the deal. A PPP shares the costs, shares the benefits, and in theory at least, shares the risk. But we don't seem to look at it that way. It's not viewed by Americans as a win-win to get a better overall result. It is looked at solely as a way to bring down capital costs. Which makes us (taxpayers) terribly vulnerable. But it's something for nothing, or that's how we can sell it. Except when it isn't, of course...

I was thinking about that on New Years Eve... imagine how many oops-you-forgot-to-pay tickets will be written when folks figure out (the hard way) that the PPP lines (post-Fastracks) aren't free on New Years Eve like all the others. And imagine how we'll all scream bloody murder when headways get cut back to hourly, or fares have to go way up on those lines, or some other scenario that technically isn't allowed (we've been promised, after all, we have an agreement), when the Eagle P3 consortium can't make ends meet anymore. You know we'll never let them default. Never.