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  #1881  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 4:38 AM
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Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
^Profits? Sounds like this is dealing with an entirely different animal than public transportation agencies in Canada. They aren't out to make a profit.

Sir Humphrey Appleby brought up a good point in response to your last idea (or set of ideas) on pricing schemes for Calgary Transit: Complication has a cost. I agree and think it applies here too. Any thoughts on that?
Totally agree. Complexity is generally a bad thing for transit. Transit should be simple, legible and easy to use. That goes for route planning, payment and almost anything associated with transit. For some good ideas regarding this go to http://www.humantransit.org. He had one post about transfers that was really great. Sometimes you have to just accept freeriders etc because the cost of trying to stop them makes the payment system too complex.
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  #1882  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:05 AM
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I think it's ludicrous. The implication is that somehow differential pricing will help even out the traffic patterns, when in reality if applied here it would never be anything more than a blatant cash grab.

People on the "busy" side of the commute aren't doing it because it's somehow "cheap". They're doing it because that's where the jobs are compared to the homes. They are the very definition of a captive market. And making the reverse "cheaper" to somehow incentivize riders will just make transit lose more money (it is NOT a profit-earning service).

There's a reason this sort of story talks about profit. The only profit to be had here would be a cash grab against people who will be taking transit regardless, because they have no choice. Until it gets too expensive, and then they hop in their cars, entirely defeating decades of transit planning. This is pretty much the Park n Ride lots in a larger scale, and there's a reason we're doing away with those fees.
I think the idea of what level to subsidize public transit is an entirely different discussion and mutually exclusive from the discussion of how differentiated pricing could improve the occupancy rate (and efficiency) of the public transit system. It could also be done such that is revenue-neutral so as not to impact revenue/profitability.

Calgary is very much a core-centric city, so the potential for optimization and improved and reduced variability in commute patterns may be greater here than similar cities of our size. This has been implemented in some American cities smaller or similar to the size of Calgary.

As for the concern that people use transit because that's where there jobs are compared to the homes, one of the benefits of differentiated pricing would be it would help encourage locating jobs closer to where people lived and vice versa. i.e. Fixing the root problem, rather than treating the symptoms. As another paper had mentioned, this has the potential to result in a net overall consumer surplus.

I agree with fusili that they should try to keep it simple, however if 'backhaul' modes of transporation are incredibly low compared to 'peak' loads, then maybe this problem is severe enough that it deserves a summer student doing some data collection.

Here is another publication on the subject:

Flat versus differentiated transit pricing: What's a fair fare?

Quote:
Abstract
Virtually every U.S. bus system today charges its customers flat fares. Recent trends, however, suggest that passengers are traveling farther and proportionally more during peak hours, factors which have contributed toward transit's cost spiral. As deficits continue to soar and available funding tightens, current pricing rationales must be seriously questioned. This paper assesses the efficiency and equity impacts of three California transit agencies' fare structures. Short-distance, off-peak patrons are found to heavily cross-subsidize long-haul commuters. Fares differentiated by distance and time-of-day, in contrast, could improve the transit industry's fiscal posture while eliminating differences in payment rates. Barriers to their implementation remain formidable, however, both in terms of current fare collection capabilities and political acceptability.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r52126220g7t7501/

Last edited by Radley77; Dec 23, 2010 at 6:15 AM.
     
     
  #1883  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:30 AM
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That assumption rests on one major unknown: that changing transit fares will substantially influence where jobs and/or homes are located. I can think of hundreds of things that influence where people choose to work and live, and short of removing the C-Train or making it $10 to ride into downtown during rush hour, few people will make any big change. Oh, and first they'll just start driving to downtown. You'd have to embark on a huge social engineering project, far grander in scope than our parking limits, to see any effect. We're talking about artificially huge increases in the price of parking downtown, and ridiculous transit fares. Or, provide massive subsidies to companies like Suncor and Husky to get them to start moving huge numbers of employees to suburban offices.

Put it to you this way: I can say in no uncertain terms that you could DOUBLE my current transit fares (I'm one of these peak rush hour riders), and I wouldn't even think about changing jobs. Seriously, it would never even cross my mind. I'd lose far more taking a suburban job. So what's the plan? Make transit 3x more expensive for me? 4x? How about 10x? At some point I'll just start driving, unless you also want to make parking $100/day.

I think the key in all this is noting how every single paper you've posted comes back to the same thing. In this case, it's worded as "could improve the transit industry's fiscal posture". ie: make more money. There's an agenda here, wrapped up in superficial discussion of equalizing fares.

It's also worth pointing out that the majority of our road infrastructure design is predicated on the exact same movement pattern - large numbers of people going one way each rush hour. With comparatively little traffic in the reverse direction. What should we do about this? One-way tolls?

In my mind it comes down to a tremendous amount of effort and complication, for something that likely has little to no overall benefit. Beyond maybe making off-peak rides 30 cents cheaper. I don't know the actual numbers though - maybe off-peak has a larger overall ridership than peak.
     
     
  #1884  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
As for the concern that people use transit because that's where there jobs are compared to the homes, one of the benefits of differentiated pricing would be it would help encourage locating jobs closer to where people lived and vice versa. i.e. Fixing the root problem, rather than treating the symptoms. As another paper had mentioned, this has the potential to result in a net overall consumer surplus.
A couple things.

1. Locating jobs near people/vice versa is great as a notion, but I don't think it is a standalone goal. Types and mix of employment and residences as well as built form, transit-friendliness of design, etc. have to be accounted for as well. Locating jobs closer to where people live was tried in many US cities after "white flight" occurred. The result was auto-centric suburban office campuses.

2. If incentives are going to be the path toward such goals, I would question whether there are better ones to pursue, particularly on the land use side of the equation.

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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
I agree with fusili that they should try to keep it simple, however if 'backhaul' modes of transporation are incredibly low compared to 'peak' loads, then maybe this problem is severe enough that it deserves a summer student doing some data collection.
I'd probably be interested in seeing data on it.

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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
Here is another publication on the subject:

Flat versus differentiated transit pricing: What's a fair fare?

Abstract
Virtually every U.S. bus system today charges its customers flat fares. Recent trends, however, suggest that passengers are traveling farther and proportionally more during peak hours, factors which have contributed toward transit's cost spiral. As deficits continue to soar and available funding tightens, current pricing rationales must be seriously questioned. This paper assesses the efficiency and equity impacts of three California transit agencies' fare structures. Short-distance, off-peak patrons are found to heavily cross-subsidize long-haul commuters. Fares differentiated by distance and time-of-day, in contrast, could improve the transit industry's fiscal posture while eliminating differences in payment rates. Barriers to their implementation remain formidable, however, both in terms of current fare collection capabilities and political acceptability.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/r52126220g7t7501/
Now you're getting a little closer. To the bolded, I'd imagine the fare collection aspect is no longer an issue, but I wonder how much the political acceptability and barriers to implementation have changed since the paper was published in 1981.
     
     
  #1885  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:48 AM
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I have an actual example of why I just loathe differential pricing schemes, at least how Calgary's done it so far. Back when I first moved to Royal Oak, the only transit service we had was the premium, rush-hour only service (this is not a gripe about limited service, I knew what I was getting into). Don't know if they still run this service anywhere but for those that don't know, it was a regular bus that ran only during rush hour, one way to/from downtown depending on time of day, and carried an extra 50 cent fare premium. To help offset the long haul and the peak scheduling (hard to run a bus system like this).

How did it work in practice? Well, it was a huge pain in the ass. It was literally impossible to purchase "premium" fares ahead of time. So you had 3 choices:

1. Carry enough change for the regular+premium fare total
2. Bring a ticket, plus 50 cents change
3. Carry a pass, plus 50 cents change

At no time did I ever see CT offer a "premium" ticket or pass. So essentially, for 2.5 years I had to hoard quarters like in my university days of doing laundry. And remember every single working day to carry at least a buck in change on me, let I get stuck with literally no way to take transit home. Casual transit users may not see the big deal, after all they have to carry change all the time and CT is a pain in the ass for this, right? Well, when you take transit daily and have a pass, which I've been doing for over 20 years now, it doesn't make a bit of sense to have to carry change around.

It was a huge pain in the ass and major inconvenience, and a lot of my neighbours just said "screw this" and drove in instead (people who started taking transit the day Crowfoot opened and it was convenient again). I almost had to do this once when I ran out of change in the house - thankfully I found some between the couch cushions. Making transit inconvenient for a marginal revenue gain is just plain stupid. It's along the lines of why we don't accept anything but coins at the LRT stations, because it saves a few dollars in fare machines. Just stupid.

Now yes, CT could easily provide "premium" passes in the scenarios you're proposing. But the fact of the matter is, they could have before and didn't. So when you hear extreme wariness from someone like myself about this, it's because we've experienced how these things are often set up and they're really not well thought out.

The Park 'n Ride fee was exactly the same situation in the beginning, until they had enough complaints that it dawned on CT that people actually don't want to have to deal with paying for something every single day when they use that something every single day. I think it was a month or more before they introduced monthly PnR passes. Again, very recent evidence that these sort of money grabs don't tend to be well thought out because they're not about improving service, they're about increasing revenues. At least in this city.
     
     
  #1886  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
To the bolded, I'd imagine the fare collection aspect is no longer an issue
Heh. See the rant I was in the middle of typing just as you posted this. The fare collection aspect has definitely not been addressed in this city, yet. I've seen it more reasonably implemented in other cities, but even then it tends to be confusing and can cause a lot of problems. On an "honour system" like the C-Train, it could be a logistical nightmare enforcing fare payment that is based on time of day, route, direction, distance, etc etc etc.
     
     
  #1887  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:52 AM
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Heh. See the rant I was in the middle of typing just as you posted this. The fare collection aspect has definitely not been addressed in this city, yet.
I meant in the general case, as the article seemed to speak to. The technology certainly exists.
     
     
  #1888  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 6:57 AM
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Originally Posted by frinkprof View Post
I meant in the general case, as the article seemed to speak to. The technology certainly exists.
Yeah, but that reminds me of the old cliche: In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice. In practice, however...
     
     
  #1889  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 4:47 PM
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As for the potential scale of the problem, as of September 2010, there were 13.9 million trips in the month for Calgary. Not considering seasonality, this is approximately 170 million trips annually. If, for example the misallocation in resources was $0.50 trip (just pulling a number out of the air), then this would be a misallocation of $85 million ANNUALLY. From a very high level, I do think this is an issue that requires better data collection based on the potential size of the problem.

I would argue actually that fare differntiation actually provides more freedom of choice as opposed to social engineering. A flat fare, doesn't allow people who might use transit otherwise in reverse commute routes to do so that may otherwise use up that capactiy.

As for the problem of political palatability, the following is a good quote: "Here lies a challenge to the public relations officers, who have the potential of earning a lot of goodwill from price differentiation. From other sectors, including rail and aviation, we know that customers appreciate increased freedom to choose between price and quality combinations."

As for the issue of "white flight", I would argue that this was a problem that was worst in cities like Detroit, but less of a problem in cities like San Francisco, Boston, and Washington, the latter of which all have differentiated pricing schema.

INVENTIVE PRICING OF URBAN PUBLIC TRANSPORT
Nils Fearnley - Institute of Transport Economics, Oslo, Norway
http://www.aetransport.org/lc_files/files/LPT-H-03%20Fearnley.pdf

On a personal note, I would class myself as a 'peak marginal' user. I have a variety of different options to use, some of which like bicycling are actually faster. Since, it costs much more to build the capacity for peak demand, every time I use the system I am actually needlessly burdening others who are travelling on backhaul routes and non-peak periods to supply that capacity.

The following is a simple and intuitive example illustrates this further: Assume an operator with almost zero marginal costs and two passengers whose willingness to pay in one direction are $1 and in the opposite direction are $3, respectively. If the operator were to charge one uniform fares then $3 would maximise profits, but only one passenger would be served. With price differentiation, the operator could charge them up to $1 and $3, respectively, which would yield a higher profit and provide affordable services for all customers.

So one can see this isn't also about improving profits per se, it's also about improving the welfare of people, and increasing the utilization rate of our existing public transit infrastructure.

I think political acceptability is dependent on getting the right information first, doing good research and focus groups on implementation, and then proposing to the public what the problem is (quantifying size of problem is important) and how it can be fixed. Do a horrible job at public relations, and the idea would not be politically viable despite it's potential for economic and social welfare benefits.

Last edited by Radley77; Dec 23, 2010 at 5:09 PM.
     
     
  #1890  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 5:35 PM
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Haha, well it sure stirred up quite a debate

Oh ya, and to Mr.MonctonGoldenFlames, take the tone and language down a couple notches.
thanks officer
     
     
  #1891  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 7:04 PM
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Calgary is very much a core-centric city, so the potential for optimization and improved and reduced variability in commute patterns may be greater here than similar cities of our size. This has been implemented in some American cities smaller or similar to the size of Calgary.

As for the concern that people use transit because that's where there jobs are compared to the homes, one of the benefits of differentiated pricing would be it would help encourage locating jobs closer to where people lived and vice versa. i.e. Fixing the root problem, rather than treating the symptoms.
Alright, I have said this so many times it is getting boring. A CORE-CENTRIC CITY IS A GOOD THING FOR TRANSIT. A core-centric city is not the root problem, it is the solution. A city with spread out employment is the root problem. Why do you think Calgary has the some of the highest transit ridership in all North America, while only using light rail? It is because it has a very high concentration of employment in the downtown. Using your argument, transit and traffic in Phoenix would be amazing because "jobs are close to where people live". But the problem with this always is the jobs that are close to people are not the jobs they have.

Spreading out jobs in Calgary will have terrible impacts on our transit system and our traffic. Your proposal will have the absolute opposite result that you intended. "Fixing the root problem" by spreading out jobs would erode ridership, reduce headways and make transit less efficient.
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  #1892  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 8:33 PM
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Alright, I have said this so many times it is getting boring. A CORE-CENTRIC CITY IS A GOOD THING FOR TRANSIT. A core-centric city is not the root problem, it is the solution. A city with spread out employment is the root problem. Why do you think Calgary has the some of the highest transit ridership in all North America, while only using light rail? It is because it has a very high concentration of employment in the downtown. Using your argument, transit and traffic in Phoenix would be amazing because "jobs are close to where people live". But the problem with this always is the jobs that are close to people are not the jobs they have.

Spreading out jobs in Calgary will have terrible impacts on our transit system and our traffic. Your proposal will have the absolute opposite result that you intended. "Fixing the root problem" by spreading out jobs would erode ridership, reduce headways and make transit less efficient.
I would think that the status quo system artificially misallocates resources to subsidize polycentricity.

I also think a core-centric city is a good thing for increasing transit ridership, but a bad thing for maximizing occupancy rates. There is a difference from an economic perspective.

This is a potential way to improve productivity, and also revenue-neutral.
     
     
  #1893  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 9:28 PM
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I would think that the status quo system artificially misallocates resources to subsidize polycentricity.

I also think a core-centric city is a good thing for increasing transit ridership, but a bad thing for maximizing occupancy rates. There is a difference from an economic perspective.

This is a potential way to improve productivity, and also revenue-neutral.
Simple. A core-centric city leads to expensive parking, which ultimately leads to high transit ridership. Calgary deserves a grade-separated system downtown--no interference with vehicle traffic what-so-ever. What is the timeline to build a line under Stephen Avenue?
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  #1894  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Radley77 View Post
I would think that the status quo system artificially misallocates resources to subsidize polycentricity.

I also think a core-centric city is a good thing for increasing transit ridership, but a bad thing for maximizing occupancy rates. There is a difference from an economic perspective.

This is a potential way to improve productivity, and also revenue-neutral.
I take it you are talking about how full the trains/buses are. Well, in that case a train 100% full going on way and 10% full going the other is much better than 30% either way. Plus the riders per route kilometre are higher, meaning the capital cost of the ROW and stations are better offset. Plus, I would much rather have 100% full trains going the one way then completely ineffectual transit because there is not enough employment concentration to build ridership.
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  #1895  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:42 PM
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I take it you are talking about how full the trains/buses are. Well, in that case a train 100% full going on way and 10% full going the other is much better than 30% either way. Plus the riders per route kilometre are higher, meaning the capital cost of the ROW and stations are better offset. Plus, I would much rather have 100% full trains going the one way then completely ineffectual transit because there is not enough employment concentration to build ridership.
The reason that some places have implemented fare differentiation is because it has resulted in productivity improvements of the public transit. By having a flat fare, you have users like myself that needlessly burden the system, and simulataneously when it is less occupied, it is also cutting other people out of accessing the service that potentially can't afford the cost. How is this a good model?

I have seen you argue before for market based pricing for parking before; why is public transit a sacred cow when there is an opportunity to improve upon the efficient use of that spare capacity?
     
     
  #1896  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Simple. A core-centric city leads to expensive parking, which ultimately leads to high transit ridership. Calgary deserves a grade-separated system downtown--no interference with vehicle traffic what-so-ever. What is the timeline to build a line under Stephen Avenue?
Hopefully soon, I think it is a great project. When the West LRT, and four car stations are implemented congestion will be even worse.
     
     
  #1897  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:46 PM
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Hopefully soon, I think it is a great project. When the West LRT, and four car stations are implemented congestion will be even worse.
Neither of these will increase congestion on 7th Avenue in any way.
     
     
  #1898  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:48 PM
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I used to think the 8th Avenue Subway would be the best thing for transit in this city.

My mind has been changed.

I now believe that the best thing for transit in this city is keeping Radley77 the hell away from any sort of decision making process for Calgary Transit.
     
     
  #1899  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 10:59 PM
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Double post.
     
     
  #1900  
Old Posted Dec 23, 2010, 11:02 PM
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The following is another thesis paper on the subject of fare differentiation:

Public Transit Fare and Subsidy Policy in Greater Vancouver
1970 - 1983: Efficiency and Equity Implications

https://circle.ubc.ca/bitstream/handle/2429/24196/UBC_1983_A8%20B76.pdf?sequence=1
     
     
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