High Speed Rail (HSR)

[Dado]

A thread for discussions and news related to High Speed Rail in the National Capital Region, including possible routes, stations, etc.

[Harley613]

i assume a high speed rail link would come into the greenbelt from toronto through the west end, stop at fallowfield station, then continue through the greenbelt, across a bridge to the airport, under a tunnel below the runways, and stop under the airport terminal, before continuing on to MTL. The links to local light rail and transitway would be at fallowfield and the airport.

[GoTrans]

I don't think a stop at Fallowfield is justified now or for a long time in the future. To me it makes more sense to stop at the Via Station on Tremblay Road since it is closer to downtown and has a grade separated right of way most of the way through the city except for Merivale, Woodroffe, Greenbank and Strandherd. The Via station has direct transit connections and in the future could have commuter rail connections.
The airport would also be better served with direct transit to downtown and the Via Rail station. Ottawa is still a relatively small air market, especially for international flights so more people would want HSR to Malton and Dorval airports than Ottawa.
Before embarking on HSR we need to convince government/Via to do some serious upgrading of the line between Brockville - Ottawa - Montreal so that some of the Toronto - Montreal trains could run through Ottawa at approximately the same duration as the current overall travel time. The advantage of this is to increase frequency between Brockville-Ottawa-Montreal with very little increase in cost.

[eternallyme]

The big question is who funds the project? It is federal responsibility if it crosses the provincial border, but I doubt it will be popular with Atlantic and Western Canadian taxpayers.

In Ottawa, the best route is definitely the existing route (unless a downtown spur can somehow be built).

There are only two at-grade crossings within the Greenbelt - both with collector roads: at Pleasant Park Road and at Michael Street. Pleasant Park Road is tricky since it would be impossible to grade-separate without sinking the rail corridor (expensive and highly disruptive), yet is a crucial link in the Alta Vista community. An underpass on Michael Street (under the railway) probably would be doable, shouldn't be too expensive on a 2-lane collector.

The Barrhaven crossings (Jockvale Road is another one) can all easily be grade-separated, I believe the plan is to build underpasses at all of them?

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

I don't think a stop at Fallowfield is justified now or for a long time in the future. To me it makes more sense to stop at the Via Station on Tremblay Road since it is closer to downtown and has a grade separated right of way most of the way through the city except for Merivale, Woodroffe, Greenbank and Strandherd. The Via station has direct transit connections and in the future could have commuter rail connections.
The airport would also be better served with direct transit to downtown and the Via Rail station. Ottawa is still a relatively small air market, especially for international flights so more people would want HSR to Malton and Dorval airports than Ottawa.
Before embarking on HSR we need to convince government/Via to do some serious upgrading of the line between Brockville - Ottawa - Montreal so that some of the Toronto - Montreal trains could run through Ottawa at approximately the same duration as the current overall travel time. The advantage of this is to increase frequency between Brockville-Ottawa-Montreal with very little increase in cost.

Ottawa is no toronto or motnreal but its not really a small market in terms of international flights.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by reidjr

Ottawa is no toronto or motnreal but its not really a small market in terms of international flights.

Perhaps not, but HSR links to airports are for intercity travel, that is, for people from other cities coming to take a plane at your city's airport. There would be few passengers (and fewer on the HSR line) from outside Ottawa-Gatineau and immediate environs that come to YOW to fly.

As soon as you get just slightly outside the CMA boundaries (east and south especially, and this is where most of the population is), people tend to go to Toronto, Montreal and even Syracuse to take flights.

Also consider that intermodal transportation links are already seriously deficient by international standards at both YUL and YYZ, so YOW is not likely to be an immediate priority on this front even if HSR got rolling as a project.

[danny the dog]

Ottawa is no toronto or motnreal but its not really a small market in terms of international flights.

I really beg to differ, Ottawa is serviced by two international (not including the US as that is considered trans-border) destinations year round: London Heathrow and Frankfurt International. For its size Ottawa is under serviced for international flights.

In terms of YOW I think HSR is sort of a double edged sword. Via and Greyhound both stop at Dorval already and whenever I take the train or bus to Montreal there are a good number of people who get off at Dorval. I think it would be good for population in the south like you say Acajack, but the easier connection to Montreal could have more people head that way for flights. Then again it could go the other way around, if there were cheaper flights to Ottawa and then take the HSR to Montreal.

In general though I think it's far overdue that HSR is built in Canada, not just Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal but also say Edmonton-Calgary for starters. If we were able to get those lines in place and show what it can do and how it can benefit the cities that are connected, more lines could come in.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by danny the dog

I really beg to differ, Ottawa is serviced by two international (not including the US as that is considered trans-border) destinations year round: London Heathrow and Frankfurt International. For its size Ottawa is under serviced for international flights.

In terms of YOW I think HSR is sort of a double edged sword. Via and Greyhound both stop at Dorval already and whenever I take the train or bus to Montreal there are a good number of people who get off at Dorval. I think it would be good for population in the south like you say Acajack, but the easier connection to Montreal could have more people head that way for flights. Then again it could go the other way around, if there were cheaper flights to Ottawa and then take the HSR to Montreal.

In general though I think it's far overdue that HSR is built in Canada, not just Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal but also say Edmonton-Calgary for starters. If we were able to get those lines in place and show what it can do and how it can benefit the cities that are connected, more lines could come in.

Many US cities of Ottawa's size have NO international flights at their airports. I wouldn't exactly say it is under-serviced for a city its size. Although as a G8 capital it could use more flights, preferably with smaller and medium-sized planes.

Those I found with far fewer or no international flights: Austin TX (only seasonal flights to Cancun; had more to Mexico from 2007-09), Birmingham AL (none), Columbus OH (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Indianapolis IN (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Jacksonville FL (none), Louisville KY (none), Milwaukee WI (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Nashville TN (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Norfolk VA (none), Oklahoma City OK (none), Richmond VA (none)

[McC]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

and has a grade separated right of way most of the way through the city except for Merivale, Woodroffe, Greenbank and Strandherd.

There is an at-grade X-ing at Pleasant Park beside the SE Transitway station (they moved the tracks a couple of metres to the east to make room for the Transitway, but did not separate the X-ing*). There's also an at-grade pedestrian X-ing nearby at the bottom of Billings for access to the Riverside Campus of the Ottawa Hospital.

*probably to avoid a "rollercoaster ride" between the elevated X-ings at Smyth and Bank

[McC]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Many US cities of Ottawa's size have NO international flights at their airports. I wouldn't exactly say it is under-serviced for a city its size. Although as a G8 capital it could use more flights, preferably with smaller and medium-sized planes.

Those I found with far fewer or no international flights: Austin TX (only seasonal flights to Cancun; had more to Mexico from 2007-09), Birmingham AL (none), Columbus OH (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Indianapolis IN (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Jacksonville FL (none), Louisville KY (none), Milwaukee WI (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Nashville TN (only non-US city regularly served is Toronto), Norfolk VA (none), Oklahoma City OK (none), Richmond VA (none)

A few thoughts on why the comparison between Ottawa to US cities of similar size is a little off:

- Ottawa as a capital city has a higher per-capita demand for international travel than other cities of similar size

- Canadians are more likely to travel internationally than Amercians (e.g. we're more than twice as likely to hold passports)

- The major US airlines have heavily structured their routes into hubs and spokes (e.g., compare the size of their Hub airports like Dallas-Fort Worth to Toronto Pearson, and they appear completely out of proportion: DFW is much much bigger than YYZ, but the populations of their catchment areas aren't that different)

Cheers

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by danny the dog

I really beg to differ, Ottawa is serviced by two international (not including the US as that is considered trans-border) destinations year round: London Heathrow and Frankfurt International. For its size Ottawa is under serviced for international flights.

In terms of YOW I think HSR is sort of a double edged sword. Via and Greyhound both stop at Dorval already and whenever I take the train or bus to Montreal there are a good number of people who get off at Dorval. I think it would be good for population in the south like you say Acajack, but the easier connection to Montreal could have more people head that way for flights. Then again it could go the other way around, if there were cheaper flights to Ottawa and then take the HSR to Montreal.

In general though I think it's far overdue that HSR is built in Canada, not just Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal but also say Edmonton-Calgary for starters. If we were able to get those lines in place and show what it can do and how it can benefit the cities that are connected, more lines could come in.

As others have said there are some cities that have no international flights.Ottawa does ok be it true international flights and flights to the states.

[danny the dog]

I don't want to make this about YOW for obvious reasons. Though I could have been a bit clearer in my definition as to why I believe Ottawa is under serviced for international flights, as McC pointed out there are significant reasons why US cities with similar populations have very little or no international flights.

By the same token Zurich, Geneva, Dublin, Copenhagen, Prague, Stockholm, and even Tirana are all either smaller or same size and have more international flights than Ottawa. There are good reasons for this, but that's what I'm trying to say, their location determines what services they get. That's simply the case with Ottawa vis a vis Montreal and to an extent Toronto. I'm just saying that HSR would be a mixed blessing for YOW, the airport authority and the city would have to be smart and creative on how they harness the benefits of a line if it were to stop at YOW and not have more people got to Montreal or Toronto for international flights.

[Kitchissippi]

My prediction is when California gets its HSR running (they're the most advanced in North America for planning one) everyone else will be green with envy.

If you want to really wet your pants, just go see what's proposed for Transbay Center, San Francisco's future train and Greyhound bus terminal.



so, yeah, after 2020, maybe?

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[DubberDom]

You forgot to mention that California was Bankrupt!

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

My prediction is when
If you want to really wet your pants, just go see what's proposed for Transbay Center, San Francisco's future train and Greyhound bus terminal.

How is that possible? For the love of God, won't someone think of the faults? THE FAULTS!

[acottawa]

Phase 1 is a non-high speed train to nowhere in the central valley (connecting bakersfield to somewhere even smaller).

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/03/us/03borden.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=rail%20california&st=cse

[GoTrans]

With the schedule changes effective January 17th, 3 trains from Montreal to Ottawa will continue on to Toronto. While the times are not competitive the proposed schedule will result in better equipment utilization and will provide addition frequencies from Montreal to Toronto. Unfortunately this is not true in the opposite direction. The other problem is that many of the Montreal to Ottawa trains cannot keep to their current schedule. This may result less reliable service between Ottawa and Toronto if the schedule cannot be adhered to. The real key to the success of this is getting the Ottawa-Toronto timings down to 4 hours flat like the schedule was in the early 1990's and to get the Ottawa-Montreal schedule down to 1.5 hours. Of course this means additional funding for infrastructure improvements to the these routes. If the time between Toronto and Montreal via Ottawa could be made similar to the current times between Toronto and Montreal via Cornwall then several of the existing trains could be transferred to the Ottawa route. Given that Via owns most of the trackage between Smiths Falls and Montreal via Ottawa costs would be reduced compared to paying CN for trackage rights. This would also increase the frequency of service through Ottawa. If some of these trains were express trains then there would be some real improvement in service.
The one problem with the current schedule is the slower trains via Ottawa should leave Montreal or Toronto after the direct trains have departed so that
there is an incentive to use the trains via Ottawa.

[McC]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

other problem is that many of the Montreal to Ottawa trains cannot keep to their current schedule.

Really? I rode Ott-MTL and back a half dozen times last year and it was always right on schedule. I'm not disputing your claim, but why would Via have trouble maintaining their Ott-MTL schedule on a line that they own, and can have entirely dedicated to their own trains?

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by McC

I'm not disputing your claim, but why would Via have trouble maintaining their Ott-MTL schedule on a line that they own, and can have entirely dedicated to their own trains?

Check out the arrival and departure status on Via's web page and you will see that the Montreal-Ottawa trains are later on a more frequent basis and often later than the Toronto Ottawa trains. The reason I suspect is that the distance is too short to make up lost time, there is not enough double track, there are delays caused by rail traffic between Montreal and Coteau and delays crossing the CPR mainline resulting in delays on meets.

[McC]

Originally Posted by GoTrans

Check out the arrival and departure status on Via's web page and you will see that the Montreal-Ottawa trains are later on a more frequent basis and often later than the Toronto Ottawa trains. The reason I suspect is that the distance is too short to make up lost time, there is not enough double track, there are delays caused by rail traffic between Montreal and Coteau and delays crossing the CPR mainline resulting in delays on meets.

Guess I've been lucky then; and frankly, ten minutes late in Via1 means one more glass of wine or a digestif, so maybe I never even noticed!