Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[invisibleairwaves]

Originally Posted by cabotp

The only rear difference between the 99-b line and other regular bus routes with a daytime frequency of 5-8 minutes. Is the 99 has a stop spacing of about 800-1000 Metres except for at the western end of the route. While the other bus routes have stops about every 200-400 Metres.

Yes, and this is exactly why B-lines in Surrey would be a welcome improvement over the current situation. There's just too damn many stops along the way, so it takes forever for the commuters who are just trying to get to the skytrain. Simply skipping most of the stops would cut down travel times by quite a bit.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Yes, and this is exactly why B-lines in Surrey would be a welcome improvement over the current situation. There's just too damn many stops along the way, so it takes forever for the commuters who are just trying to get to the skytrain. Simply skipping most of the stops would cut down travel times by quite a bit.

They could also use the B-Line stops as and idea on where the stops for the RRT or LRT system should be.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by cabotp

They could also use the B-Line stops as and idea on where the stops for the RRT or LRT system should be.

I do agree that BRT would be a good start, I'm just worried that it wouldn't end up as useful as we thought and we'd be wasting our money implementing BRT rather than using that money implementing RRT/LRT.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Yes, and this is exactly why B-lines in Surrey would be a welcome improvement over the current situation. There's just too damn many stops along the way, so it takes forever for the commuters who are just trying to get to the skytrain. Simply skipping most of the stops would cut down travel times by quite a bit.

It really depends on the route and the time of day. Some of the busy Surrey routes are busy BECAUSE they pick up people between their two ends and major exchanges.

For example, the 319, which I take, is usually around 90-110% full when it arrives/leaves Scott Road station. But less than 1/4 ride all the way between Scottsdale exchange and Scott Road. The bus routinely stops at over 3/4 of all it's stops, dropping off and picking up, and a surprisingly large number ride between 2 points that don't include Scott Road or Scottsdale.

While that's very slow, it's actually the only way the bus can be efficient. If the 319 were to become a B-Line, you would have half full buses because not everyone is riding between 2 transfer points. The Bline is a success because it travels between heavy transfer points. One end is UBC, the other end is Commercial Drive Station (where 2 Skytrain lines meet).

A lot of the bus lines in Surrey aren't transfer connectors, they're local collectors. While I would like to see B-Lines, I'm not sure they can be as efficient as the Blines in Vancouver are/were unless other routes in Surrey become feeder lines to the B lines and stop heading to Skytrain themselves.

That's why I think the 321 is the most likely candidate for B-Lineing because it already makes fairly few stops between Newton and KG station, and is mainly a connection service between White Rock Center, SS P&R, Newton Exchange, and KGS. But it does still serve some local traffic and connections between those stops that will need to be maintained (as it's the only route that does KGB end to end). While the 502 seems like a good candidate, I'm worried taking away from it's local service (by making fewer stops) can impact the people who use it along the Fraser Hwy.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I do agree that BRT would be a good start, I'm just worried that it wouldn't end up as useful as we thought and we'd be wasting our money implementing BRT rather than using that money implementing RRT/LRT.

In a sense it would be a waste of money. But if Surrey wants to wait another 10 years before getting any major upgrade in transit service. Then so be it. I'm only suggesting has a stop gap measure.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It really depends on the route and the time of day. Some of the busy Surrey routes are busy BECAUSE they pick up people between their two ends and major exchanges.

For example, the 319, which I take, is usually around 90-110% full when it arrives/leaves Scott Road station. But less than 1/4 ride all the way between Scottsdale exchange and Scott Road. The bus routinely stops at over 3/4 of all it's stops, dropping off and picking up, and a surprisingly large number ride between 2 points that don't include Scott Road or Scottsdale.

While that's very slow, it's actually the only way the bus can be efficient. If the 319 were to become a B-Line, you would have half full buses because not everyone is riding between 2 transfer points. The Bline is a success because it travels between heavy transfer points. One end is UBC, the other end is Commercial Drive Station (where 2 Skytrain lines meet).

A lot of the bus lines in Surrey aren't transfer connectors, they're local collectors. While I would like to see B-Lines, I'm not sure they can be as efficient as the Blines in Vancouver are/were unless other routes in Surrey become feeder lines to the B lines and stop heading to Skytrain themselves.

That's why I think the 321 is the most likely candidate for B-Lineing because it already makes fairly few stops between Newton and KG station, and is mainly a connection service between White Rock Center, SS P&R, Newton Exchange, and KGS. But it does still serve some local traffic and connections between those stops that will need to be maintained (as it's the only route that does KGB end to end). While the 502 seems like a good candidate, I'm worried taking away from it's local service (by making fewer stops) can impact the people who use it along the Fraser Hwy.

In the case of the 502 you would still keep that route. But also add the B-Line down Fraser Hwy with a possible diversion through Guildford. So the 502 would provide local stop service and the B-Line the limited stop service. If the ridership isn't there or doesn't seem to be there to support both. Then I would say the ridership is not there to support LRT or RRT.

Same goes for King George and having a B-Line service or any other possible street in Surrey.

[invisibleairwaves]

I can say that, from my own observations, the overwhelming majority of 502 passengers are going to and from the skytrain, and there's a handful of obvious high-usage stops. You wouldn't have a situation where the B-line is half-full because everyone is trying to get from some minor stop in Cloverdale to some minor stop in Fleetwood, or whatever. Obviously the local-service 502 would still need to exist to some degree, but it wouldn't need to run nearly as often as it currently does. I can't speak to the 321, but that's the situation on Fraser Highway.

I'd love to just skip the BRT step and go full Skytrain right away, but that just isn't an option with Translink's current situation. Hell, they can't actually afford BRT right now.

[The_Henry_Man]

The idea of nixing the $150 million extension of the Northstar commuter rail line extension to St. Cloud from Big Lake that starts from Minneapolis-St. Paul reminds me of how FORTUNATE we are in Metro Vancouver to have good rapid transit rail lines. EVEN a $150 million extension has people fuming how it's a waste of money, and too much of the Obama socialism BS (why should I pay for other people etc). Go figure....

***The Northstar commuter rail line is Minnesota's equivalent of our West Coast Express. It goes from Minneapolis-St.Paul up northwest to Big Lake, which has an equivalent distance from Waterfront to around Mission. And extending the Northstar line from Big Lake to St. Cloud has a similar distance from Mission to Chilliwack.

*Currently you have to transfer 2-3 times via local buses JUST to get on the Northstar commuter train that stops in the middle of nowhere. Good thing I brought my car from Van so I'm driving exclusively now. But sucks for most of the approx 1200 international students at St. Cloud State University (where I'm studying) who don't have a car. The only other options: $68/single round trip to the Minneapolis-St.Paul Airport via Executive Express bus, or Greyhound that costs $37 round trip.

Northstar rail extension to St. Cloud on hold

By Kirsti Marohn • [email protected] • November 6, 2010

An extension of the Northstar commuter rail line to St. Cloud is on hold indefinitely.

Quantcast

The Northstar Corridor Development Authority’s executive committee decided Thursday to recommend not applying for federal funding for phase 2 of the project at this time.

Less-than-robust ridership numbers for the Northstar rail line and the Link commuter bus to St. Cloud led NCDA officials to conclude the extension couldn’t effectively compete for federal funding.

“We’ve known we were going to have some difficulty in making the comparison between us and other transit projects,” said Felix Schmiesing, a Sherburne County commissioner who led the extension effort. “We were not faring very well.”

The Federal Transit Administration’s funding for rail projects is competitive nationwide, and phase 2 of Northstar “didn’t stack up to be able to compete,” said Bryan Dodds, the Minnesota Department of Transportation’s Metro District transit director.

Northstar officials decided it makes more sense to work to get more people to ride the existing train and bus lines and possibly try again in the future, Dodds said.

Due to the economic recession, high unemployment and gas prices well under $3 a gallon, the first phase of Northstar between Minneapolis and Big Lake has been struggling to meet ridership goals.

Also, BNSF Railway recently rejected the sum offered by the NCDA for use of the rail line between Big Lake and St. Cloud, Schmiesing said.

This week’s election didn’t bode well for commuter rail projects. Several of the winning legislative candidates had said they didn’t support funding the Northstar extension in the 2011 session. And the defeat of U.S. Rep. Jim Oberstar in the 8th District, chairman of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee, meant the loss of a key ally.

However, Schmiesing said the decision to shelve phase 2 has been coming for weeks and would have been the same regardless of the election’s outcome.

Schmiesing noted that a recent statewide rail plan showed more potential riders of a rail line between St. Cloud and the Twin Cities than any other cities in Minnesota.

“Now may not be the time for it,” he said. “But when the time comes, this is the connection that needs to be done first, and we need to be ready when the time is right.”

http://www.sctimes.com/article/20101106/...tar-rail-extension-to-St.-Cloud-on-hold-

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Yes, and this is exactly why B-lines in Surrey would be a welcome improvement over the current situation. There's just too damn many stops along the way, so it takes forever for the commuters who are just trying to get to the skytrain. Simply skipping most of the stops would cut down travel times by quite a bit.

Thats how I feel about most buses they stop way too often!
I find it faster to cycle rather than take the bus for most routes in Vancouver. Obviously the B-Line and South Fraser express buses are quick, but routes like the #22 seem to stop ever other block! I think ever 4 blocks should be the maximum frequency.

A B-line bus going from Semiahmoo Mall traveling along 152 and KGB and ending at King George Station with only making 10 stops would be great.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

The idea of nixing the $150 million extension of the Northstar commuter rail line extension to St. Cloud from Big Lake that starts from Minneapolis-St. Paul reminds me of how FORTUNATE we are in Metro Vancouver to have good rapid transit rail lines. EVEN a $150 million extension has people fuming how it's a waste of money, and too much of the Obama socialism BS (why should I pay for other people etc). Go figure....

***The Northstar commuter rail line is Minnesota's equivalent of our West Coast Express. It goes from Minneapolis-St.Paul up northwest to Big Lake, which has an equivalent distance from Waterfront to around Mission. And extending the Northstar line from Big Lake to St. Cloud has a similar distance from Mission to Chilliwack.

*Currently you have to transfer 2-3 times via local buses JUST to get on the Northstar commuter train that stops in the middle of nowhere. Good thing I brought my car from Van so I'm driving exclusively now. But sucks for most of the approx 1200 international students at St. Cloud State University (where I'm studying) who don't have a car. The only other options: $68/single round trip to the Minneapolis-St.Paul Airport via Executive Express bus, or Greyhound that costs $37 round trip.



http://www.sctimes.com/article/20101106/...tar-rail-extension-to-St.-Cloud-on-hold-

I've been reading the various transit websites since the US election this week, and people are starting to believe that any transit improvement projects not already funded & started won't happen once the GOP takes over in January. California High Speed Rail and the North-East Corridor High Speed Rail - both areas with lots of voters - will likely be the exceptions.

The other buzz-kill was the cancellation of the $8 Billion New Jersey - New York City commuter train tunnels by the New Jersey Governor two weeks ago. However, that releases $3 Billion for the Feds to send to other states' transit projects. Early speculation has most of the Fed money heading to New York to finish the East Side Access project, and/or to start Phase II of the Second Avenue Subway project.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Thats how I feel about most buses they stop way too often!
I find it faster to cycle rather than take the bus for most routes in Vancouver. Obviously the B-Line and South Fraser express buses are quick, but routes like the #22 seem to stop ever other block! I think ever 4 blocks should be the maximum frequency.

A B-line bus going from Semiahmoo Mall traveling along 152 and KGB and ending at King George Station with only making 10 stops would be great.

Thats what they are supposed to do. They are local buses.
If you want fewer stops (and a faster bus trip) along that route, you have to convince Translink to add a 22B B-Line route to run with the regular 22 route.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Thats what they are supposed to do. They are local buses.
If you want fewer stops (and a faster bus trip) along that route, you have to convince Translink to add a 22B B-Line route to run with the regular 22 route.

But there are a lot of cases where stops in my opinion are too close or too far apart from each other.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Thats how I feel about most buses they stop way too often!
I find it faster to cycle rather than take the bus for most routes in Vancouver. Obviously the B-Line and South Fraser express buses are quick, but routes like the #22 seem to stop ever other block! I think ever 4 blocks should be the maximum frequency.

A B-line bus going from Semiahmoo Mall traveling along 152 and KGB and ending at King George Station with only making 10 stops would be great.

But that's where the riders are. The buses stop everywhere because that's where people want to get on. Ridership is distributed throughout Surrey and Langley. There aren't major nodes along Fraser Highway like there are on other routes in Metro Vancouver.

It's easy to focus the stops on the 99B line because at one end you have Skytrain, in the middle you have Canada Line/City Hall/Hospital/South Granville, and at the other end you have UBC. All stops are major trip generators and destinations.

I do see how a KGB B line could work well. At one end you have White Rock center where many of the South Surrey buses meet and exchange passengers. It was always very busy there. In the middle you have Newton Exchange, where a lot of people make transfers. Then at the end you have Skytrain. Each node is pretty major, and a majority of travel happens between these points (as really, there aren't many homes right on KGB, most people need to make a transfer to get to KGB in the first place).

You could even include Guildford on the proposed 399. It would provide riders a continuous ride from Newton to Guildford through City Center (Guildford-City Center-Newton-South Surrey, all on one route), as at Guildford there is a fairly large transit exchange, major destination, and lots of ridership concentrated in one area around the mall.

On the 502, at one end you have Skytrain, in the middle you have suburbs, and at the other end you have more suburbs. There is a transit exchange in Langley, but I would say a majority of 502 passengers come from between those 2 points. It's spread out along the route. If you provide B line buses from Langley to King George, half empty buses will blow past most of their ridership waiting for local service. It's just making the lives of people who have already chosen to live as far away as possible better at the expense of those who live closer.

Unless Langley becomes an extra zone to pay for this improved service with higher rates, I don't see why people in Cloverdale and Langley should have an improved experience at the expense of all the people who live along Fraser Highway in Fleetwood.

But I do see the value of sending Skytrain down Fraser Highway to Langley. With it's completion you can refocus local bus routes to feed the stations, which is much easier and acceptable to do for trains as opposed to other buses. Whereas a B line won't be faster than driving, a Skytrain can challenge the commuting speed of the car, encouraging its use and making transfers an acceptable cost.

[invisibleairwaves]

Yes, passengers are boarding on stops spread out across the route, but it certainly isn't evenly distributed. If you take the route regularly, you notice some stops with far higher usage than the other ones. Willowbrook, 188th, Venture Way, and 152nd are the biggest ones that stick out to me. These are, in effect, already "nodes" and would be logical places for B-line stops. They're also likely to become transfer points for feeder routes if a more grid-based system was implemented.

Nobody is suggesting that a B-line should skip Fleetwood entirely and only serve Cloverdale and Langley. It would have to stop at a few points (mentioned above), certainly. Fleetwood has A LOT of local stops now(as does Cloverdale), so of course many of them would be skipped (or there would be no improvement over current service), but it wouldn't bypass the area altogether. In the current setup, Fleetwood gets it worse than Cloverdale or Langley because of pass-ups, so increasing capacity can only benefit them.

[tybuilding]

Class presentations were given at the City of Surrey Transportation Lecture program last night and they covered a wide range of topics. Have a look:

http://www.surrey.ca/city-government/7277.aspx

If anyone is interested in attending this lecture program the City of Surrey will likely be running it again in the Fall of 2011.
http://www.surrey.ca/city-services/7097.aspx

SFU & City of Surrey Transportation Lecture Program

The Transportation Lecture Program is the first of its kind in B.C. Surrey is promoting this new initiative as part of our broader engagement with the community and stakeholders. This is an opportunity to learn more about transportation and the role it plays in the shaping and development of our City. It will offer a forum to discuss important regional and local transportation issues, provide the City the chance to better communicate and explain our role in transportation, the services we provide, and our place in the larger transportation “jig-saw”, and in turn, we will also hear first hand from you what issues and priorities are important. In partnership with the City Program - Simon Fraser University (SFU) we are offering a unique opportunity for citizens, professionals, and stakeholders to learn more about transportation in Surrey with topics including:

Who’s responsible for different types of transportation and their relationship
How transportation is funded, regionally and locally
How we plan new transportation systems and networks
How we operate and manage our roads
What the relationship is between transportation and land use, in a growing city like Surrey.
What the Course Offers
This 9-week course will provide you with a comprehensive introduction to Transportation in the Lower Mainland with a particular focus on Surrey. You will learn about a wide range of transportation issues from regional planning of development and land use through to the day-to-day operation and management of our transportation systems.

Instructors and Case Studies
You will hear from senior practitioners directly responsible for delivering transportation in our region and in our City, with lectures from TransLink, Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, Metro Vancouver, and City of Surrey staff, as well as SFU and a guest international speaker.

The course will also include an interactive tour of a number of sites in Surrey to examine and discuss the outcomes of planning decisions, show practical examples of constraints, tradeoffs, challenges and lessons learnt.

Benefits
This is a unique opportunity to learn about transportation. You will have the chance to meet those people responsible for transportation, hear how decisions are made, question and debate issues, and meet other people like you with a passion for transportation.

The course will be of interest to people with an interest in transportation, individuals who are responsible for representing their community, transportation advocates, professionals whose jobs bring them in touch with transportation, students who are thinking of working in transportation in the future, and anyone who wishes to learn more about transportation and how it shapes Surrey now and into the future.

[tybuilding]

Double Post.

[splashflash]

Long-awaited Fraser Valley Transit Study concludes Chilliwack to Surrey rail service too expensive


By Paul J. Henderson, Chilliwack Times December 16, 2010



The provincial government finally released the results of the much-anticipated Fraser Valley Transit Study (FVTS) on Thursday, and commuter rail on the old inter-urban line doesn't fare too well.

"An inter-urban commuter rail service would cost about $70 million, which costs significantly more than the other transit options available," the study finds.

The FVTS analyzed how people travel in the communities of Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Kent, Mission and Harrison Hot Springs and throughout the region.

The study was initiated by the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure in November 2008, and was slated for completion November 2009. Municipalities expected to have the study by February of this year, but the provincial government said it was conducting an internal review before releasing the information.

The province completed the study in partnership with the Fraser Valley Regional District, BC Transit and TransLink. The study includes input from local governments, community and regional stakeholders, as well as the public.

The results found, among other things: each day 800,000 trips are made using different modes of transportation in the region; of all daily trips just one per cent (8,000) are on transit; and 87 per cent of daily trips that start in Chilliwack, remain in Chilliwack.

"The extensive internal travel for Fraser Valley communities is reflective of a ‘complete community,’ and is unique for communities at the fringe of a large urban centre. Because of the projected growth patterns, this is not expected to change," the report states.

Funding for transit is also an issue with regards to large investments. Chilliwack spends $9 in property tax per capita, considerably lower than other mid-size communities in B.C. and significantly lower than other large municipalities in Canada.

Prince George residents pay $25 per capita, Kelowna $26, Victoria $40, Oakville, Ontario residents pay $43 per capita, York Region $73 and Guelph $78.

The study estimates a potential ridership of 15 million passengers by 2030. To achieve this, service hours would need to reach 420,000 hours annually and services must be enhanced. Since 2001, ridership has increased by 62 per cent to 2.7 million from 1.7 million.

Current annual funding for transit in the Fraser Valley is $10 million. The province provides 47 per cent of funding. Fares and property taxes contribute the rest of the funding.

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) Chilliwack Times


Read more: http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/Long+awai...pensive/3989448/story.html#ixzz18KvKknrl

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by splashflash

Long-awaited Fraser Valley Transit Study concludes Chilliwack to Surrey rail service too expensive


By Paul J. Henderson, Chilliwack Times December 16, 2010



The provincial government finally released the results of the much-anticipated Fraser Valley Transit Study (FVTS) on Thursday, and commuter rail on the old inter-urban line doesn't fare too well.

"An inter-urban commuter rail service would cost about $70 million, which costs significantly more than the other transit options available," the study finds.

The FVTS analyzed how people travel in the communities of Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Hope, Kent, Mission and Harrison Hot Springs and throughout the region.

The study was initiated by the Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure in November 2008, and was slated for completion November 2009. Municipalities expected to have the study by February of this year, but the provincial government said it was conducting an internal review before releasing the information.

The province completed the study in partnership with the Fraser Valley Regional District, BC Transit and TransLink. The study includes input from local governments, community and regional stakeholders, as well as the public.

The results found, among other things: each day 800,000 trips are made using different modes of transportation in the region; of all daily trips just one per cent (8,000) are on transit; and 87 per cent of daily trips that start in Chilliwack, remain in Chilliwack.

"The extensive internal travel for Fraser Valley communities is reflective of a ‘complete community,’ and is unique for communities at the fringe of a large urban centre. Because of the projected growth patterns, this is not expected to change," the report states.

Funding for transit is also an issue with regards to large investments. Chilliwack spends $9 in property tax per capita, considerably lower than other mid-size communities in B.C. and significantly lower than other large municipalities in Canada.

Prince George residents pay $25 per capita, Kelowna $26, Victoria $40, Oakville, Ontario residents pay $43 per capita, York Region $73 and Guelph $78.

The study estimates a potential ridership of 15 million passengers by 2030. To achieve this, service hours would need to reach 420,000 hours annually and services must be enhanced. Since 2001, ridership has increased by 62 per cent to 2.7 million from 1.7 million.

Current annual funding for transit in the Fraser Valley is $10 million. The province provides 47 per cent of funding. Fares and property taxes contribute the rest of the funding.

[email protected]
© Copyright (c) Chilliwack Times


Read more: http://www.chilliwacktimes.com/Long+awai...pensive/3989448/story.html#ixzz18KvKknrl

Only $10m annually!? We'll never get anything done at that rate

[nname]

Hmm.. compare the cost estimate for Surrey to Chilliwack commuter rail with the one done by RFTV:

Heavy DMU (not including vehicle)
MOT: 99.3km @ 11.4M/km = 1132.0M
RFTV: 98km @ 4.55M/km = 445.6M

Light DMU (not including vehicle)
MOT: 99.3km @ 18.6M/km = 1847.0M
RFTV: 98km @ 5.72M/km = 560.3M

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Only $10m annually!? We'll never get anything done at that rate

With only 1% usage in Chilliwack, and I'm guessing not much better in Abbotsford, $10m is a hell of a lot of money spent per rider.