Calgary Area Regional Transit

[fusili]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Those are some very interesting maps. My first thought is that its huge over kill for a city like calgary. I would love it if we lived in a dense enough city to merit such and extensive plan, but something tells me simply running such a system would bankrupt the CMA around Calgary.

You hit the nail on the head there. Density is the key to transit. I remember taking a train in the Netherlands from Goes (in the south- pronounced Hoos), to Amsterdam, that only took a little less than 2 hours. But in that two hours, the train stopped in Roosendaal (pop 78K), Dordrecht (118K), Rotterdam (2.1 million), Leiden (117K), Den Haag (1 million), Schipol Airport and Amsterdam (2.1 million). So in that short distance, the train serves a population of 5 million people, plus all the travellers going through Schipol. The CMA needs to densify to a significant degree for anything of this sort to work.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Those are some very interesting maps. My first thought is that its huge over kill for a city like calgary. I would love it if we lived in a dense enough city to merit such and extensive plan, but something tells me simply running such a system would bankrupt the CMA around Calgary.

Second thought, if you have regional transportation, any lines connecting to outlying areas IMO should connect with the LRT at the edge of the city rather than having dedicated lines going into the core of the city (with the exception of the HSR). The line going to cochrane/bank/Lake Louise would connect to the end of the NW line, and a south line to okotoks/high River should connect to the terminus of either the south lrt or SE lrt. I cant see ever needing a line heading east.

There are reasons why no commuter rail systems operate like that. It would cause capacity problems on the LRT lines. Packing trains full before they leave the first station would just wreck the whole point of having LRT lines. It would result in tremendously long commutes for anyone utilizing it. The LRT commute from terminal stations to downtown is already long, bypassing all those stops is what makes commuter rail competitive with car travel. Half the point of building a commuter rail system is to stop out of towners from just driving to the terminal station of an LRT line and using up capacity that Calgarians should be able to use along the entire length.

We probably will not need a commuter rail system for a long time but when we do, building it like everyone else does makes the most sense. That means limited stops within Calgary, say a south line stopping at the LRT terminus, Anderson, Chinook, and the main downtown station. The main downtown station should be a major hub, allowing easy transfers between the six radial LRT lines, any heavy rail lines (commuter/high speed which would presumably share trackage within the city of Calgary). To do otherwise would be to build a boondoggle of limited viability.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

We probably will not need a commuter rail system for a long time but when we do, building it like everyone else does makes the most sense. That means limited stops within Calgary, say a south line stopping at the LRT terminus, Anderson, Chinook, and the main downtown station. The main downtown station should be a major hub, allowing easy transfers between the six radial LRT lines, any heavy rail lines (commuter/high speed which would presumably share trackage within the city of Calgary). To do otherwise would be to build a boondoggle of limited viability.

Agreed, but I would get rid of the Anderson stop. Similarly the west line from Cochrane should stop at the terminus (Rockyridge?) and then downtown; the north line from Airdrie should stop at a 96th avenue hub and then downtown (I think Okotoks can just run an express bus using the International Avenue busway).

But I really agree about a downtown hub. The hub is vitally important and we need to start planning and designing it now. The centre city plans calls for a hub around 2nd street between 7th avenue and the rail road tracks. I agree that transferring between commuter lines, a future HSR to Edmonton and all 6 radial LRT lines is vitally important. What any transit system needs to do is serve multiple trip types with each route, and the only way to do this is to make connections easy. A commuter rail line from Okotoks should provide riders access to the downtown and all major employment areas in the city with only a few transfers. That same rider should be able to make an easy transfer to get to Edmonton on the HSR or get to the airport.

To put it simply, a transit system does not need to go from everywhere to everywhere (CTs current problem), a transit system simply needs to get people to a line that can get them where they want to go. Connections make or break any transit system.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by fusili

Agreed, but I would get rid of the Anderson stop. Similarly the west line from Cochrane should stop at the terminus (Rockyridge?) and then downtown; the north line from Airdrie should stop at a 96th avenue hub and then downtown (I think Okotoks can just run an express bus using the International Avenue busway).

But I really agree about a downtown hub. The hub is vitally important and we need to start planning and designing it now. The centre city plans calls for a hub around 2nd street between 7th avenue and the rail road tracks. I agree that transferring between commuter lines, a future HSR to Edmonton and all 6 radial LRT lines is vitally important. What any transit system needs to do is serve multiple trip types with each route, and the only way to do this is to make connections easy. A commuter rail line from Okotoks should provide riders access to the downtown and all major employment areas in the city with only a few transfers. That same rider should be able to make an easy transfer to get to Edmonton on the HSR or get to the airport.

To put it simply, a transit system does not need to go from everywhere to everywhere (CTs current problem), a transit system simply needs to get people to a line that can get them where they want to go. Connections make or break any transit system.

I'm curious as to why Chinook instead of Anderson would be your choice as a commuter stop. Because it connects with whatever rapid transit is put as a circle route? Chinook is a lot close to downtown than in comparison, 96 ave, is why I'm asking, although that will already be a transit hub. From Cochrane, a commuter rail line won't interact with the NWLRT anywhere, the rail line runs through Bowness. From Chestermere, which I think you meant instead of Okotoks, by the time we get commuter rail 17th ave SE could be developed all the way to Chestermere, so agreed.

And doubly agreed on needing to plan the downtown transit hub. Not a lot of plans have been revealed for the downtown subways, and the transfer station at 7th ave and 2nd st should be planned with HSR and commuter rail in mind. I suspect the current plan is to have the 6 radial lines meet there, and the HSR and commuter rail will be wherever on the east side of downtown land is available (or bought, wasn't it?) for a rail station, and getting between the two will be from the City Hall and 4th St SE stations.

Getting the Greyhound (who will be moving out of West Village by then) and other private bus companies to have their terminal there would be great too. We could have a grand central rail station like other places do.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I'm curious as to why Chinook instead of Anderson would be your choice as a commuter stop. Because it connects with whatever rapid transit is put as a circle route? Chinook is a lot close to downtown than in comparison, 96 ave, is why I'm asking, although that will already be a transit hub. From Cochrane, a commuter rail line won't interact with the NWLRT anywhere, the rail line runs through Bowness. From Chestermere, which I think you meant instead of Okotoks, by the time we get commuter rail 17th ave SE could be developed all the way to Chestermere, so agreed.

And doubly agreed on needing to plan the downtown transit hub. Not a lot of plans have been revealed for the downtown subways, and the transfer station at 7th ave and 2nd st should be planned with HSR and commuter rail in mind. I suspect the current plan is to have the 6 radial lines meet there, and the HSR and commuter rail will be wherever on the east side of downtown land is available (or bought, wasn't it?) for a rail station, and getting between the two will be from the City Hall and 4th St SE stations.

Getting the Greyhound (who will be moving out of West Village by then) and other private bus companies to have their terminal there would be great too. We could have a grand central rail station like other places do.

Chinook just has a lot more development around it. Anderson, not so much. Chinook acts as a destination in and of itself. If a circle BRT goes through Anderson, then it could connect there, but I think Heritage would be better for a circle BRT. In that case, the stops would be at Somerset-Bridlewood (which would have an express bus to south hospital), Heritage (circle BRT) and downtown.

Agreed about Cochrane and Chestermere (not Okotoks).

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by DarkKeyo

I'm curious as to why Chinook instead of Anderson would be your choice as a commuter stop. Because it connects with whatever rapid transit is put as a circle route? Chinook is a lot close to downtown than in comparison, 96 ave, is why I'm asking, although that will already be a transit hub. From Cochrane, a commuter rail line won't interact with the NWLRT anywhere, the rail line runs through Bowness. From Chestermere, which I think you meant instead of Okotoks, by the time we get commuter rail 17th ave SE could be developed all the way to Chestermere, so agreed.

And doubly agreed on needing to plan the downtown transit hub. Not a lot of plans have been revealed for the downtown subways, and the transfer station at 7th ave and 2nd st should be planned with HSR and commuter rail in mind. I suspect the current plan is to have the 6 radial lines meet there, and the HSR and commuter rail will be wherever on the east side of downtown land is available (or bought, wasn't it?) for a rail station, and getting between the two will be from the City Hall and 4th St SE stations.

Getting the Greyhound (who will be moving out of West Village by then) and other private bus companies to have their terminal there would be great too. We could have a grand central rail station like other places do.

My concept for the central heavy rail system involves abandoning the current Vic Park/East Village site and instead developing one below grade just south of the theoretical main LRT station around 2 St, 8 Ave, and 7 Ave. Basically run the passenger heavy rail line in the existing rail ROWs west of 14 St for Cochrane, through nose creek and Inglewood for Airdrie, and through the whole south and Inglewood for Okotoks/Highriver. At 14 St on the west end and just west of the Elbow River on the east end, it would dive under 9 Ave. The station would be located under 9 Ave and the half block between 9 Ave and the existing train tracks, between 2 St (well, where it terminates) and 8 St. It would involve demolishing Gulf Canada Square. Space below the station could be made into a giant parkade while the area above would need to be planned out a head of time so that building footings could be constructed so it is not useless space. Run five sets of track through the station with the north four accessible from the east and the south three accessible from the west. That way there would be more possible capacity towards the busier direction since the east would serve commuter rail to the north and south along with Edmonton HSR and direct Airport service. It would tie directly into the main LRT hub and hopefully have enough capacity to serve all of the city's heavy rail needs for perpetuity. Any wild dream, hair brained scheme network that someone might want to build in a hundred years or more could use it, be it a Calgary-Invermere-Kelowna-Vancouver connection to a western US network or a Calgary-Medicine Hat-Regina-Winnipeg-Twin Cities connection to the eastern US/Windsor-Quebec network.

It would be prohibitively expensive but it would also tie any future regional and long distance rail networks into Calgary's local rail network. Most of the land is currently the only viable area in the city that does not currently have buildings on it so that is a plus. Expropriating Gulf Canada Square (if not going all the way to 1 St SW) would be the most expensive acquisition but at least it is not one of the most intensively used blocks in the city (like Bankers Hall, Petro Canada, etcetera) and it would be required to tie the station in with the LRT subways. Hopefully some of the cost could be recouped by selling the right to build towers over the station. Either way, doing it right would be expensive. We just do not have pre-existing large train stations like eastern cities or large continuous areas of under utilized land in the right place. Building a station away from downtown and the local network's hub would just cause issues down the line.

[MalcolmTucker]

Realistically, what is planned right now, or available for use with minimal investment is this

Green is the platforms at the tower centre - Calgary's train station. There is no reason to believe we will build a new more expensive station when we have one already especially when service is so limited to begin with.

The boxes are station boxes for LRT subway (with the stations moved maybe a bit from the current drawings, but those will likely change whenever the subway report comes back).

So what does that leave us for building connectivity and additional facilities?

Station head for the 'hub' in either the ATB branch (which would be repurposed or rebuilt depending of heritage value), or in the Scotia Bank banking hall. Concourse level connecting to the 'theatre' level at Bankers Hall, and into the Unicorn pub in Home/Dome connecting up into the food court on the inner part of the Lorraine building.

As for tower centre, it is pretty easy. underground concourse from the 10th Ave LRT station under the heavy rail platforms across into the convention centre concourse.

It isn't perfect but it gives two protected from weather transfer stations that would both easily connect up with a future 6th Ave subway. It would be pretty bold in and of itself while not being too flashy.


Yellow is connecting concourse, which would reuse what already exists as much as possible. Solid blue and pink are the options for a station head. For those wanting a 'grand' station, the base of the tower centre I am sure could be opened up and expanded into a very grand waiting hall for far less with much better results than something new.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by polishavenger

Second thought, if you have regional transportation, any lines connecting to outlying areas IMO should connect with the LRT at the edge of the city rather than having dedicated lines going into the core of the city (with the exception of the HSR). The line going to cochrane/bank/Lake Louise would connect to the end of the NW line, and a south line to okotoks/high River should connect to the terminus of either the south lrt or SE lrt. I cant see ever needing a line heading east.

I'm going to have to agree with the others here, when Calgary can support commuter rail the lines should terminate at a single central station. In London, different overland lines terminate at different stations and it is rather inconvenient having to hop on the tube to transfer trains.

[DarkKeyo]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Expropriating Gulf Canada Square (if not going all the way to 1 St SW) would be the most expensive acquisition but at least it is not one of the most intensively used blocks in the city (like Bankers Hall, Petro Canada, etcetera) and it would be required to tie the station in with the LRT subways.

I don't see expropriating a city block with a quite large building ever happening, nor is it necessary. Your plan is a bit too much for the amount of commuter rail and HSR we are going to get.

As Sir.Humphrey.Appleby shows here:

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Existing buildings can be adapted to have access to underground stations built under roads. After all, in order to build the subways, a lot of cut and cover and tunnel boring will have to happen anyways. We also have the +15 that connects most of the buildings in that area. I'm not sure how much the existing heavy rail station would need to be changed to handle commuter rail, etc, but using it for something is better than building something completely new.

I very much hope the planners are, or will be, thinking like Sir.Humphrey.Appleby when they design all this. There may not be money to build subways yet, but the planning, including for the transit 'hub', should be done anyways. I was told that the current study is only figuring out what needs to be moved under Stephen Ave in order to accommodate a subway, and not the actual design for two subways and commuter/HSR.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

.

Fantastic idea. If we could get HSR to Edmonton, Commuter rail from Airdrie, Okotoks and Cochrane and an airport train to all stop at Tower Station, that is good enough for me. Connecting to the subway on 10th avenue via an underground concourse (with moving walkways of course) is all that is needed to connect to the LRT network. Doing a one-stop transfer is not a huge issue anways.

[freeweed]

Originally Posted by Riise

I'm going to have to agree with the others here, when Calgary can support commuter rail the lines should terminate at a single central station. In London, different overland lines terminate at different stations and it is rather inconvenient having to hop on the tube to transfer trains.

Totally agreed. It's one of the real annoyances I found in London - being there as a tourist it wasn't quite so bad but as a regular commute? Insane. I don't remember the exact details now, but I seem to recall having the choice between at least 2 stations for our "outbound" trains occasionally. Figuring out which station to go to depending on your destination - that I can see. But deciding between 2 (or more) depending on time of day or other factors? Thank god for that iPhone scheduling app a buddy had.

I understand the historical reasons for it in London but if Calgary can in any way avoid this situation, we absolutely must.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Station head for the 'hub' in either the ATB branch (which would be repurposed or rebuilt depending of heritage value), or in the Scotia Bank banking hall. Concourse level connecting to the 'theatre' level at Bankers Hall, and into the Unicorn pub in Home/Dome connecting up into the food court on the inner part of the Lorraine building.

Just thought I'd mention, the ATB building is a newish building, it's not historic.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Realistically, what is planned right now, or available for use with minimal investment is this

Green is the platforms at the tower centre - Calgary's train station. There is no reason to believe we will build a new more expensive station when we have one already especially when service is so limited to begin with.

The boxes are station boxes for LRT subway (with the stations moved maybe a bit from the current drawings, but those will likely change whenever the subway report comes back).

So what does that leave us for building connectivity and additional facilities?

Station head for the 'hub' in either the ATB branch (which would be repurposed or rebuilt depending of heritage value), or in the Scotia Bank banking hall. Concourse level connecting to the 'theatre' level at Bankers Hall, and into the Unicorn pub in Home/Dome connecting up into the food court on the inner part of the Lorraine building.

As for tower centre, it is pretty easy. underground concourse from the 10th Ave LRT station under the heavy rail platforms across into the convention centre concourse.

It isn't perfect but it gives two protected from weather transfer stations that would both easily connect up with a future 6th Ave subway. It would be pretty bold in and of itself while not being too flashy.


Yellow is connecting concourse, which would reuse what already exists as much as possible. Solid blue and pink are the options for a station head. For those wanting a 'grand' station, the base of the tower centre I am sure could be opened up and expanded into a very grand waiting hall for far less with much better results than something new.

I am just not sure if a revamped Tower Centre station could handle the load during a morning rush. What kind of platform lengths and headways could be handled there? With these trains stopping for considerably longer than an LRT and possible requirements of a seat for every passenger (maybe not with Commuter but definitely with HSR), capacity would be incredibly limited.

[srperrycgy]

If TC was opened up, it could handle the volume.

[MalcolmTucker]

Plus could likely defray a huge amount of the station costs - you are turning their failed mall/train station experiment from the 60s into a successful one, delivering thousands of customers to their doors.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

If TC was opened up, it could handle the volume.

Well, what kind of volume are we talking about? How many people could it accommodate in the half hour between 08:15 and 08:45? My guess would be a maximum of twelve trains, even that would be tight, with 200 meter lengths. If each train could take about 500 people, that will give us 6000 commuters served per working day. I do not think that is enough to handle all future traffic.

Off peak is easy to deal with, the rushes are when the problems erupt.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Well, what kind of volume are we talking about? How many people could it accommodate in the half hour between 08:15 and 08:45? My guess would be a maximum of twelve trains, even that would be tight, with 200 meter lengths. If each train could take about 500 people, that will give us 6000 commuters served per working day. I do not think that is enough to handle all future traffic.

Off peak is easy to deal with, the rushes are when the problems erupt.

And everyone is arriving in that half hour why?

[polishavenger]

If the commuter rail can use existing CP track and converge in DT at a hub that joins with the C-Train, i fully agree thats the way to do it. But if you end up having to build above ground track to get it into the core, I would be fully against it because it would likely ruin too many neighbourhoods. If ever the money existed to go underground and at the same time create new defacto LRT lines that would be optimal (just not realistic).

If the LRT had the capacity to build express lines (detour tracks around existing stations that would allow an express route) then I dont think tieing into terminus stations would be a bad thing and could be done to minimize transfer head aches.

[MalcolmTucker]

Tracks into the corridor would be a much larger constraint than anything downtown.

Approx 150 pax for a bi-level car seated, each car 26 m long. Between 1st st SW and Macloed Tr South is 330m. Trains from the west end could always be serviced off the longer platform to the west of 1st St SW which continues along another 200 m or so.

Lets look at maximum theoretical capacity. With pretty good scheduling you could likely get a train in and out in 10 minutes for each track, which means 8 trains crossing the Elbow every ten minutes. If the trains happened to be 12 car bombardier bi-levels that would mean you would comfortably serve 43,200 people per hour per direction. That number gives you a very good ratio to the entire populations of Calgary's non-contiguous suburbs to the south, north and east.

So where can the people go? You have concourses south to the SE LRT, and north to the two convention centres, the 8th Ave subway, and Stephen's Ave. You have access through the tower centre to the street, and to the limited +15 network (Encana Place). You also can easily create direct street access to the platforms - what are called teamways in Toronto at Union station. Basically in the pedestrian underpasses at 1st ST and MacLeod trail, there are stairways directly up onto the platforms without entering the main concourse. Lots of capacity.

To be honest - having too low a capacity is not going to be an issue for the core system. Running bilevel 4 car trains every 20 minutes on each line would already be way over what is needed (1,800 people per direction per hour).

The big costs will be expanding the capacity of all the lines through the city and beyond to allow freight to still flow except at absolute peak.

Re: access tracks, what are they

There is enough room for tracks in most corridors to run at ground level, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be expensive as hell to get the tracks put in. I think the Herald quoted CP for enough capacity out to Cochrane (I would guess double tracking, with limited triple tracks) being in the half billion dollar range. It would be a visionary provincial government that put something like that in, planning it instead of a outer ring road for example.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Tracks into the corridor would be a much larger constraint than anything downtown.

Approx 150 pax for a bi-level car seated, each car 26 m long. Between 1st st SW and Macloed Tr South is 330m. Trains from the west end could always be serviced off the longer platform to the west of 1st St SW which continues along another 200 m or so.

Lets look at maximum theoretical capacity. With pretty good scheduling you could likely get a train in and out in 10 minutes for each track, which means 8 trains crossing the Elbow every ten minutes. If the trains happened to be 12 car bombardier bi-levels that would mean you would comfortably serve 43,200 people per hour per direction. That number gives you a very good ratio to the entire populations of Calgary's non-contiguous suburbs to the south, north and east.

So where can the people go? You have concourses south to the SE LRT, and north to the two convention centres, the 8th Ave subway, and Stephen's Ave. You have access through the tower centre to the street, and to the limited +15 network (Encana Place). You also can easily create direct street access to the platforms - what are called teamways in Toronto at Union station. Basically in the pedestrian underpasses at 1st ST and MacLeod trail, there are stairways directly up onto the platforms without entering the main concourse. Lots of capacity.

To be honest - having too low a capacity is not going to be an issue for the core system. Running bilevel 4 car trains every 20 minutes on each line would already be way over what is needed (1,800 people per direction per hour).

The big costs will be expanding the capacity of all the lines through the city and beyond to allow freight to still flow except at absolute peak.

Re: access tracks, what are they

There is enough room for tracks in most corridors to run at ground level, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be expensive as hell to get the tracks put in. I think the Herald quoted CP for enough capacity out to Cochrane (I would guess double tracking, with limited triple tracks) being in the half billion dollar range. It would be a visionary provincial government that put something like that in, planning it instead of a outer ring road for example.

43 200 would definitely be enough. My lower estimates were based off of leaving track open for freight and some doubt over our ability to use bilevel carriages. Would they be able to fit under the catenary wire that HSR would require for, at least, the eastern approach into downtown?

I agree that the real expense would definitely be ROW acquisition and track construction through the rest of the corridors. A south line might be difficult because the ROW already includes the SLRT but there seems to be plenty of room for two new sets of track to both the north and west. The question is how much the freight companies would demand for the land. I cannot see additional tracks in those corridors disrupting very many neighbourhoods, Bowness and Inglewood are the only neighbourhoods they really pass through.